Powerful People

[FearlessFreep]

I bet both of you have had opportunities and COULD have bullied people to go along with how you saw things, but you CHOSE not to. How did that happen? Thoughts?


Umm...'cause it's just not in my character..

I've had chances to get stoned but choose not to, why not? Nothing special, just it's not who I am. I have chances to overstuff myself at an all-you-can eat buffet, but I don't. Why not? It's not my personality.. *shrug* no better answer to wide I didn't overeat than I just simply didn't think it was important or a good thing to do.

Different people have different temptations, and some people can learn to overcome their temptations through experience. I don't abuse power because *it doesn't occur to me to use it in the first place* It's not like "gee, I could use my authority, but I won't" Abuse of authority is simply not in my list of options when I seek to resolve conflict or get something done.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tiger Woman:

"....Tact and responsibility.

I may not be the person you addressed the question to, but this is what comes to mind for me....."

Can you take this a step farther and flesh this out. Maybe some definitions of how you are using the terms and an example of how you applied it?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

Well, I'm the one who responded. Would you like for me to flesh this out for you or are you specifically singling out TigerWoman?

Georgia

 

[TigerWoman]

As Fearless said, I'm one of those people who doesn't use what little power I do have unless it is necessary and positive. It does little good to yell at a five year old. After all Martial Arts is about patience. A teacher has to exhibit that to be a leader. It does little good to yell at an adult either. I have never responded to ego/power-driven people. Lack of humility is lack of strength in my opinion. Those that have humility don't have to remind others of their strength, they just quietly have it. And sometimes the quietest people are the strongest and the most powerful. Those that don't have to insult others to get a response or make themselves look better/more powerful, or have to insinuate their rank ARE more humble and therefore, more powerful IMO. And I'm not referencing this to you, Master Sims. TW

 

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Jay--

".....Different people have different temptations, and some people can learn to overcome their temptations through experience. I don't abuse power because *it doesn't occur to me to use it in the first place* It's not like "gee, I could use my authority, but I won't" Abuse of authority is simply not in my list of options when I seek to resolve conflict or get something done......"

I can't say that you are not being honest, cuz I really don't know you. But I bet I can guess that you participate in MA because there is something about yourself that you want to be fundamentally different. I don't know what the thing is because I don't know you, but I am going to guess that whatever it is that you want to make fundamentally differnt about yourself, you could be tempted to laud that over other people given the right circumstances. For instance, lets say you came to the MA to be a better self-defense person having been teased by bullies early on. It would be a real tempation to become someone who starts bullying people yourself using the S-D material you have learned. My guess is that you didn't do that. And, I am wondering "why". I know you are telling me that its not in your nature, but people have done things not in their nature before. You made some sort of choice, and that choice came out of something about who you are. Thats what I hope we can start talking about, yes? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
__________________

 

[FearlessFreep]

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inheirt the earth"

I once was told that the word 'meek' literally means 'power under control'. Big difference between 'meek' and 'weak'

 

[FearlessFreep]

I'll admit to being a bit confused in all this. I rather think that something happened, or some events happened, in Bruce's life recently, particularly regarding Hapkido and a bad use of authority. It seems as if he is trying to drive at a certain point or certain conclusion indirectly through how others answer the question but I admit that I'm not sure what it is.

 

[glad2bhere]

Oooooppppsss..

Sorry, Georgia.

I'm not trying to "single-out" any one person and I am not pretending there is a right or wrong answer. What I want to do is keep a dialogue about how people use Power going so that folks can talk about this. There are some things that exist in the MA community that simply don't get talked about. Power is one thing. Money is another. Hypocrisy is another. We all know these things exist and we have all felt the results when they are not handled well. But nobody actually talks about these issues in detail. Know what I mean?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[TigerWoman]

Only he can say about that..something about Hapkido and authority?

I know for myself, and my school, authority/power was misused. Its not good to be on the end of the one of the people getting hurt. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

Two reasons for my getting into MA

1) 35 years old and very out of shape and a bit overweight; I realized I wanted to do something so that my aging would less uncomfortable, or I could slide into middle-age uselessness. I thought MA would be a good way to improve my condition, especially because...
2) My kids started before me so I wanted to encourage and inspire them to do their best

In turn, my kids started simply because it was going to be too difficult working out baseball schedules for several kids on different teams so I wanted them to do something that they could all particpte in at the same time even at different ages. I thought of swimming; a friend of mine suggested TKD to my wife because her husband and son were attending a class near our house taught by a Christian teacher who had a really good attitude

The SD is something that will be useful to have but I pray I *never* have to strike anyone in seriousness. The sparring is fun but right now we're all such beginners that we spend a lot of time trying to help each other get better.

But I'm a 35 year old adult, my thought patterns and attitudes in dealing with people and conflict resolution have already been well established, long before I learned any MA.

I'm a bass player, I really don't sit there thinking "If the piano player doesn't give me more solos, I'm going to work him over on the next break"

I've been in MA for six months, I've been a musician for 20 years, my personality in dealing with people his far more shaped by both my Christian beliefs and my years of supporting other people as a a bassist, than by my MA

 

[FearlessFreep]

Power is one thing. Money is another. Hypocrisy is another. We all know these things exist and we have all felt the results when they are not handled well. But nobody actually talks about these issues in detail. Know what I mean?

That's not MA, that's life. That's people with issues and those issues are much more foundational to who they are than to just a MA

I've seen geeks in businesses use their technical roles to push other people into doing what they wanted. Some people use a PhD as a club to get their way. Managers over workers, guitarists over drummers, whatever All over life some people *have* authoritity and some people *abuse* authority

 

[kenpo tiger]

Dear kempo Tiger and Fearlessfreep:

I am going to push you both to get with the program and lay the esoteric to one side.

What is it that helps YOU NOT abuse authority or power when it is given into your hands. I bet both of you have had opportunities and COULD have bullied people to go along with how you saw things, but you CHOSE not to. How did that happen? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I'm responding without reading any posts past this one.

I teach children American Kenpo because I choose to. I don't engage in ego when I walk onto the mat with them because:

1) I am setting an example with everything I teach them and everything I do or say while on the mat with them
2) They are children. They have short attention spans, and children have bad days the same as adults, so they're not going to behave 100% of the time.
3) We're there to have fun -- and learn a little something, too.

As my students range in age from 4 through 11, you can bet each is an individual challenge. Each child learns differently and responds to adults differently. Some of the boys don't like having a lady instructor, which is fine, but they are learning that they can't always dictate what life throws them. They listen and behave anyway. Some of the children are so painfully shy it takes weeks or even months for them to finally look me in the eye when they speak to me - or I them. And, like adults, some like forms better than techniques, and vice versa. We all have to learn it all, whether we like one thing more than the next, because it's all part of the larger puzzle Mr. Parker created for us.

I never yell. In fact, they have never ever heard me use my 'sensei voice' because it has never been necessary.

I spend the majority of the classes with the smaller children at their height (No short jokes, please. Even I have to get on my knees or bend down to be at eye level with them.) so that they do not feel intimidated or threatened by a bigger person.

I think all the foregoing point out is that I have power I choose to use in a beneficient manner. Having been in other schools where the instructors frequently pulled rank and belittled lower belts into doing things, I will never abuse the power I have.

 

[Adept]

I think real power is two fold, has two faces.
There is the power to get people to follow you willingly because you're able to effectively lead, influence them to do what you want them to do and your motives (as seen by your followers) are that which will benefit them. Basically the power that others give you.

The power to force someone to do what you want is the other face. The tyrant/dictator/whatever. You're not given a choice (or much of one) when they TELL you to do this or that else you suffer dire consenquences. Hitler, Stalin, Hussein and so forth have these faces.

It is important to note that the second type of power cannot be wielded unless one also holds the first type. Hitler did not personally threaten the people he oppresed, he had underlings to do it for him. Underlings who gave him the first type of power.

 

[MA-Caver]

Yes, very true. He knew that if he had enough people to do what he wanted then others would surely follow if for nothing but simple fear. Many Germans were thrilled that Hitler kept his promises of restoring Germany to it's former might and glory and in the early days preceeding the invasion of Poland that we can see in the old newsreels that he did just that. The German people had their pride restored and thus revered their leader.
This paved the way for Hitler to insigate new laws which slowly (but surely) took away the rights and freedoms of the people...for their own good of course. Now with henchmen (those guys probably would've never dreamed, except in the end maybe, that their names would be black listed in the pages of history forever) aggressively enforcing those new laws and viewing anyone speaking against the state as being subversive and then those people would "disappear".
The people followed out of fear and called it obedience.

 

[glad2bhere]

Whew... NOW we're getting somewhere.....

OK, lets take that Hitler thing back to the MA.

The Germans were feeling put down and put upon after the First WW. The coming of the World Depression of the 30-s only made things worse.

In like manner, lets say we have a person who starts teaching older children, or even adolescents. Argueably those students may have poor self-images. They don't have to be abused as such or grow-up in bad neighborhoods. Children sometimes tend to view themselvs as persecuted or repressed just as a matter of life being life. So these young people go to a MA school that promises to "empower" them against bullies, offers acceptance, and hopefully provides stucture and purpose. Now I could stop here and we could just talk about the responsibilities of the instructor (maybe a little minnie "Hitler" in the making?) to help these folk keep things in perspective. But for the sake of the discussion I would be willing to go a step father and also ask about the kids themselves, right? On one hand we could talk about how the instructor himself handles the feeling of being the source of organization and direction to the kids.Thats a kind of Power, isn't it? On the other hand we can talk about how (if at all) the kids are helped to keep their new found "Power" (IE ability to fight, rank and seniority, etc) in perspective. For myself, I say I see signs that we are not doing enough, or are not doing the right things. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Adept]

On one hand we could talk about how the instructor himself handles the feeling of being the source of organization and direction to the kids.Thats a kind of Power, isn't it?

Absolutely. I think power is simply influence, in all its forms. Not that that really helps us nail it down with a definition. I believe the very nature of power means it shall remain a nebulous entity which we are unable to measure and calculate. A strong and powerful fighter might lack the mental capacity to use his skills in any meaningful way, making him less powerful than the 14 year old with a baseball bat. A billionaire, without the desire to use his money, has no power either.

I guess the ability to choose to use your influence is a kind of power as well.

On the other hand we can talk about how (if at all) the kids are helped to keep their new found "Power" (IE ability to fight, rank and seniority, etc) in perspective. For myself, I say I see signs that we are not doing enough, or are not doing the right things. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Good point Bruce, and one I agree with. I think shaping the future generations is the most important job that we, as adults, can possibly have. Parents, teachers, and anyone else who may influence the way a young person develops should constantly be aware of how their actions are influencing those around them.

 

[glad2bhere]

I know this next question is "tricky", Adept, but do you imagine a method for doing a better job with this? I say its tricky because anytime someone starts to deal with values there are about a half-dozen people around to tell that person why they can't do that. The religious feel values are the area for religion. Parents think its their place. Schools seem to think its their area. Of course the problem is when people who claim the responsibility don't act on it, which is where this string itself comes from. Seems like somebody along the line regarding either instructors OR students is falling down on the job. Where does one step in and start fixing things? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kenpo tiger]

I know this next question is "tricky", Adept, but do you imagine a method for doing a better job with this? I say its tricky because anytime someone starts to deal with values there are about a half-dozen people around to tell that person why they can't do that. The religious feel values are the area for religion. Parents think its their place. Schools seem to think its their area. Of course the problem is when people who claim the responsibility don't act on it, which is where this string itself comes from. Seems like somebody along the line regarding either instructors OR students is falling down on the job. Where does one step in and start fixing things? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Parents are the bedrock of values. It should not fall to the schools to teach them. As to MA, we are there to teach a different type of discipline - self discipline - which is something one must find within oneself. I think that could be why many teens/adolescents do not stick with MA. They aren't ready for that challenge as yet. Even the ones who are will act out at times. After all, they're kids. We as adults act out at times, too.

 

[glad2bhere]

"......Parents are the bedrock of values....."

Yee-gads, is THAT a scarey thought!! Some of the boneheads I've seen are SO afraid to offend, so afraid to challenge that its a wonder they can get out of bed in the morning! Thats one of the reasons I won't take kids or run kids classes. I have no intention of reducing my curriculum to daycare geared towards teaching little Johnny that its socially counterproductive to shove a pencil in his sisters' eye or hit his baby brother with a brick. Not when they will go home to parents who staunchly defend the childs right to act like an a$$h*** under the aegis of "growing-up".

"....It should not fall to the schools to teach them....."

Yeah, it shouldn't but who else is going to do it--- Big Bird? MTV? Adults raised with the belief that "having it all means never having to pay for it"? I would bet money that maybe one of the contributing facotrs to KMA leadership who can't handle responsibility is that they were irresponsible students who were pushed along in the name of revenues to ranks they didn't deserve or couldn't handle! Just a thought. What do you think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kenpo tiger]

"......Parents are the bedrock of values....."

Yee-gads, is THAT a scarey thought!! Some of the boneheads I've seen are SO afraid to offend, so afraid to challenge that its a wonder they can get out of bed in the morning! Thats one of the reasons I won't take kids or run kids classes. I have no intention of reducing my curriculum to daycare geared towards teaching little Johnny that its socially counterproductive to shove a pencil in his sisters' eye or hit his baby brother with a brick. Not when they will go home to parents who staunchly defend the childs right to act like an a$$h*** under the aegis of "growing-up".

"....It should not fall to the schools to teach them....."

Yeah, it shouldn't but who else is going to do it--- Big Bird? MTV? Adults raised with the belief that "having it all means never having to pay for it"? I would bet money that maybe one of the contributing facotrs to KMA leadership who can't handle responsibility is that they were irresponsible students who were pushed along in the name of revenues to ranks they didn't deserve or couldn't handle! Just a thought. What do you think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

None of my students promotes until he/she:
1) knows the material well
2) shows that he/she is doing what she/he should in school and at home

I'd like to add that I was basing my comments upthread on my students, not on all kids. Actually, I still believe it's the parents' responsibility. I am a mother of boys -- men now -- and I will still perform *Mommie Smackdown* if either misbehaves (which doesn't happen). I am not responsible for anyone else's child's behavior, other than while he/she is on the mat with me. And yes, there are a handful who were a handful at one time. Patience and guidance has started to show them that they have to behave if they want to learn and progress to the next belt level.

I will not comment about behavior of higher-ups in any style, other than to say that respect is earned before it is given. It should never be expected because of belt color.