Power generation in VT

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Why Lifting Weights Won’t Increase Punching Power

Why Lifting Weights Won’t Increase Punching Power

UFC 124: Georges St. Pierre - "I Don't Believe in Strength and Conditioning... I Lift Weights for Looks"


UFC 124: Georges St. Pierre - "I Don't Believe in Strength and Conditioning... I Lift Weights for Looks"

 

[LFJ]

Why Lifting Weights Won’t Increase Punching Power

Weightlifting
Bodybuilding
Powerlifting

You don't know the difference, do you?

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Yep, body building for looks.
powerlifting for lifting heavy ****
weightlifing I guess could be anything.

 

[LFJ]

Yep, body building for looks.
powerlifting for lifting heavy ****
weightlifing I guess could be anything.

No. Weightlifting, the name of the sport, refers to the olympic lifts.

A snatch or clean must be done with relaxed arms too. It's not a reverse curl or arm pull. It's the lower body that generates the force that brings the weight up. You can't really tell when the weight gets very heavy, but it's actually a jump, an explosion from the lower body with triple extension of the hips, knees, and ankles.

This ability to explode from the ground is what carries over to a powerful Wing Chun punch which also drives from the legs and explodes into the target. Doing this with progressively heavier weights only builds your power. It has nothing to do with pushing heavy weights like a bodybuilder or powerlifter.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Zenny
"I know exactly what you mean when you say you practise the form against resistance but in a relaxed and effortless manner. Here are my thoughts. When you move in a relaxed manner against resistance, there is a very small amount of tension in order to maintain structure. You may feel like you are strengthening your structure, but in fact the reverse is true. If you practise your form without resistance, and for a long time, your familiarity with the movements and the frequent movements will further enhance your relaxation, and this relaxation actually (believe it or not) improves your structure and force generation. Sounds counter intuitive, but again, that's how it is."

Yeah that sounds right. Sometimes I might feel a slight compression or buzz in my lower spine. And the person holding my arm just goes back and it seems like my arms are not meeting any resistance. When I ty to teach this to people, I start by making them go completely limp so that if I let go of them, their arm would fall. That's how relaxed they need to be. But most people hold so much tension in the shoulders anyway that they dont move smoothly.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Oh ok, I always thought of weightlifting as a generic term that encompasses all types of lifting.

Yep, well, I do another internal martial art that has a heavy focus on doing deep squats while moving arms in various ways ..... among other things. One of them actually looks like a power clean i.e. while we are deep in the squat, our arms are going straight up like we are holding something heavy. And we learn to feel the load from this arm position load the shoulder joints and pelvic floor (it's called Tenchijin). A teacher might push on our hands to make sure we are aligned and our legs take the load.

Also we learn how to hold and redirect pressure from in a squat. There are very precise body mechanics we are trying to do with these movements. So I have a sense of what you are trying to tell me with kenetic linking etc.

That said, we do all this without weights and get good results in terms of force development, body mechanics etc. The founder of this art is only 60 kgs and is extremely powerful.

 

[LFJ]

Oh ok, I always thought of weightlifting as a generic term that encompasses all types of lifting.

You might be looking for "weight training". I've only been talking about the olympic lifts from the sport of Weightlifting, not any other kind of weight training like "Powerlifting" which is really a misnomer.

Also we learn how to hold and redirect pressure from in a squat. There are very precise body mechanics we are trying to do with these movements. So I have a sense of what you are trying to tell me with kenetic linking etc.

That said, we do all this without weights and get good results in terms of force development, body mechanics etc. The founder of this art is only 60 kgs and is extremely powerful.

Interesting. What's the style?

I would say try adding weights and see what results you get, but I'd just be repeating myself and taking up too much space in this thread to make one point....

 

[KPM]

" Do Thai boxers lift weights? Do they lack power?

.

Thai Boxers have plenty of power. But they also typically have pretty good muscle mass! You can be sure that they are doing some strength and power training even if it isn't lifting weights in a western sense. They are doing plenty of calisthenics and such that promote strength gains. You seem to be arguing against the specific use of barbell weights. I have simply been arguing for training that increases muscle strength. Doing lots of push ups can help punching power. And this isn't so different than doing a bench press with a barbell weight.

 

[Tgace]

I agree with what wc auckland has said, namely that resistance training is useless (or even detrimental) to achieve power.

Many wrongly assume that bigger muscles = stronger, and again i blame hollywood movies.

Many wrongly assume that weight training=bigger muscles.

The advantages of resistance training in human performance is pretty much established science.

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[Tgace]

Power = speed x strength

Power is strength applied at speed. To be powerful you have to be strong. You need to have good balance and coordination, to direct and control the application of strength at speed.

Plyometrics is a power training technique, but inexperienced plyo training is a path to injury. Almost every trainer uses plyo in conjunction with other forms of strength training.



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[dudewingchun]

Yes, I originally just intended to make the suggestion to incorporate it into one's training because it is better than anything in the system for the purpose of general power development. Didn't expect much opposition or myth believers.

I just think it's good training for those who want to get closer to their genetic potential. It would only maximize your power for Wing Chun. Of course you can be effective without it, but why aim low?

Stone lock training has been used in TCMAs for centuries for developing power. It's not bodybuilding but power training. Olympic weightlifting is just a modern but far better and more efficient method to progressively train for raw power. The more powerful you are in general, the more powerful you will be when you apply it in sport-specific patterns.

I completely agree with what you saying about weights. Just hasnt been passed down as a conditioning method for Wing chun itself. I know that some cma use Stone locks and the Stone Yoke ( which is just a barbell ). I remember reading an old book which described a stone yoke exercises that was just clean and press 20 times a day pretty much.

Heres a picture of a guy holding a 75kg barbell on his arms.

 

[mograph]

Many wrongly assume that weight training=bigger muscles.

Ah. Motor recruitment vs. hypertrophy?

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I am yet to meet people from other schools (and I have seen many and actually practiced two major ones) who have the power that our one has. I don't mean to be boastful. I actually see a lot of weaknesses in the system I do. Practicality, application, fight skill, self-defence are some of the areas where we as a lineage and school are probably outshined by other schools. I can totally understand why someone would choose a more practical system of ours. It's a choice. I prefer power and force generation over fighting ability. Mainly because I see it as having the biggest long-term benefits.

As a lineage and school we focus pretty much exclusively on power and force (again, probably at the detriment of fighting skill, application etc). So of course we are going to be good at exerting force and power if nothing else. All the form moves must be done against someone using muscular resistance to stop us. Even chum kiu and biu jee. Every other lineage I have met cannot even turn let alone know how to use their arm structures to do a move. Most look at chum kiu not as a method of force generation, like we do, but of application and moves. That is fine, both appear to be correct.

To me there are way too many variables involved, in exerting force on a partner, for strength to even come into the equation. This has been my observation. I am yet to meet other people outside the two schools that I practice at to have a strong stance etc. Stance is just one example. But without that, strength is going to be useless anyway. For us we spend a long time training to release muscles that seem natural to use in exerting force but are in fact preventing us from achieving our full potential. While we know we must be using muscle (otherwise we wouldn't be able to move anything, right?), we think or imagine that we are trying not to use any at all. This is a science in and of itself.

The problem we might see with using lifting as a tool to get power in wing chun is when the weight is so heavy that you are recruiting every muscle that you can to lift that weight. Then you bring that to a structure test or breaking structure in chi sao etc. and you are using too much muscle for the task. Again we spend a lot of time rewiring ourselves to drop use of major muscle groups which initially seems counter-intuitive.

A basic principle in internal martial arts is the more relaxed you are, the more you can integrate your whole mass, weight and redirect force from the ground. In recent years, internal martial artists interested in linking this to science have been pointing to fascia as one possible reason for this. I am sure skeletal alignment and other things are part of it too. So an example we might use is if I hold out a tan sau or a fist getting reading to move it forward and you use muscle to prevent it from moving forward. If I was to try and do the natural thing that and tense up to move the arm forward, several things might happen. I might push myself back and have to step back. Some force might go into my partner and some back into me. The force has been locked into my tense shoulder and caught there. In internal martial arts, any part that is tense is a point of purchase upon which a partner can use to affect your balance.

However, if I can relax my body, align myself, rotate the joints freely, integrate my mass etc. my arm will go forward and it will be the partner who absorbs all the force and not me. When we punch it's the same thing. We don't want to feel that vibrating impact of the force to come back into our body. We want the partner to absorb it.

There actually are people within our lineage that lift weights obviously. I know of two who are teachers. One is a very big, tall and muscular guy who used to be a teacher under a different lineage. One day he went and rolled at a CST school and almost got his arm dislocated by a one of CST top students who was very small (and who has since passed away). He has converted and is now one of the leading teachers in this lineage. He is still big and strong and possibly his bigger mass and weight helps him to be as powerful as he is. However, he has had to be very careful and apparently work harder than anyone to make sure he is not relying on muscle to power his moves. The less muscle he uses the more he can access his mass and weight and mass.

So anyway this is my point of view. I have spent enough time (too much really!) defending it. So I will stop now. I keep an open mind. If I come across another wing chunner who can do what we do and who has used some form of lifting to help improve his force beyond what is possible in our linegae, I will no doubt fully reconsider this point of view.

 

[guy b.]

The problem we might see with using lifting as a tool to get power in wing chun is when the weight is so heavy that you are recruiting every muscle that you can to lift that weight. Then you bring that to a structure test or breaking structure in chi sao etc. and you are using too much muscle for the task. Again we spend a lot of time rewiring ourselves to drop use of major muscle groups which initially seems counter-intuitive.

A basic principle in internal martial arts is the more relaxed you are, the more you can integrate your whole mass, weight and redirect force from the ground. In recent years, internal martial artists interested in linking this to science have been pointing to fascia as one possible reason for this. I am sure skeletal alignment and other things are part of it too. So an example we might use is if I hold out a tan sau or a fist getting reading to move it forward and you use muscle to prevent it from moving forward. If I was to try and do the natural thing that and tense up to move the arm forward, several things might happen. I might push myself back and have to step back. Some force might go into my partner and some back into me. The force has been locked into my tense shoulder and caught there. In internal martial arts, any part that is tense is a point of purchase upon which a partner can use to affect your balance.

However, if I can relax my body, align myself, rotate the joints freely, integrate my mass etc. my arm will go forward and it will be the partner who absorbs all the force and not me. When we punch it's the same thing. We don't want to feel that vibrating impact of the force to come back into our body. We want the partner to absorb it.

When you are talking about pushing yourself back, tense shoulders, and so on you are talking about inefficient use of body mechanics. The feeling you are describing is not the use of muscular power, it is just the feeling of incorrect mechanics. You are relaxing to try and avoid incorrect mechanics which is fair enough. But you are incorrectly identifying bodily power with incorrect mechanics, which couldn't be more wrong.

Force generation is maximised via the use of efficient body mechanics coupled with whole body power, both muscular and neurological coupled with directionally trained power, both muscular and neurological. Power is trained by moving weight fast (because that is what power is) with correct bodily mechanics.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Yep, correct use of mechanics which I haven't seen many other people have. Also this use of mechanics and force direction etc is huge. Its a huge field. That's why you can have little guys pushing around big guys. You will never be done refining them.

 

[KPM]

Wing Chun Auckland, thank you for your comments above. You provide us with a perfect example of how someone can defend their lineage, describe what they think is different and good about it....all in a polite and tactful way.