Power and Control

[CB Jones]

Reading your responses, I'm wondering if we are all using the same definition of control?

What does control mean to you?

Ability to accurately punch or kick to a specific spot

 

[JowGaWolf]

Some karate schools/styles have a strong focus on control from the very start of the karate journey.

I think that this is putting the cart before the horse and that the first year or so of training should be geared towards maximising power. After power speed, after speed, control.

What do you think?

In Kung Fu Control is always top of the list. Think of like a car. What comes first in a car? You can have all of the power you want in a car, but it'll be totally useless if you can't control it.

 

[Buka]

Some karate schools/styles have a strong focus on control from the very start of the karate journey.

I think that this is putting the cart before the horse and that the first year or so of training should be geared towards maximising power. After power speed, after speed, control.

What do you think?

I believe the proper progression should be technique, application of technique, then power/speed (which go hand in hand in my opinion)

Without proper technique (mechanics) your punch or kick will never meet it's potential no matter how strong or fast you are, or are trying to be. And without technique, the power and speed you are trying to build will become habitually ineffective. Constant repetition of a movement, done again and again, will cement that movement in your muscle memory. Do it wrong, or flawed - big problems. Big. HUGE.

And - if you are training in an art where sparing is part of the process, you damn well better have technique and control. Or you're going to get yourself killed against more skilled partners. Fighters will have only so much patience with a rookie who swings for the fences.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can punch with full power on your opponent's shoulder (or next to your his face). You don't need to control your power.

One day I control my power and pull my punch back. My opponent didn't. His full power punch landed on my face. That was the last day I ever control my punch. Point sparring can build up bad habit.

Control is not the same as "pulling punches" Your' situations sounds more like "pulling a punch" so a punch doesn't land with full power.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So the reason behind my disregard for control in early training is that I feel first we have to have something to control.

The thing that you are controlling is the technique. That's the first thing you control. It is common to see people lose the structure of the technique when trying to punch too hard or move too fast. The technique becomes sloppy and flawed because the student hasn't learned how to control the technique.

 

[Buka]

To me, and to those I've trained with - control is different than accuracy. Control is how hard one hits, purposely. I can spar you all day, hit your face a lot, and not break the skin or really bruise you. It's just taking advantage of openings or set ups. It will show you where you're susceptible to getting hit, in this case, the face, or parts of it.

Or....
(hey, it's your call)

 

[DaveB]

I believe I did clarify that power IMO comes from technique, so I'm not trying to suggest bad form would be encouraged though I would be less concerned with it if the student was successfully maximising power output.

It's a bit like the tkd idea that red belt comes before black as a warning because at that stage you have a technically proficient fighter but one who lacks the control/restraint of a black belt.

Aggression is as vital part of a person's arsenal as the fist or foot. Yet we encourage peaceful zen minds and calculating sparring tactics from day one. More often than not aggression is discouraged.

I feel this is mostly a karate problem as we karsteka often have very fixed ideas about mindset and the ideal of the controlled karsteka.

 

[Buka]

I believe I did clarify that power IMO comes from technique, so I'm not trying to suggest bad form would be encouraged though I would be less concerned with it if the student was successfully maximising power output.

It's a bit like the tkd idea that red belt comes before black as a warning because at that stage you have a technically proficient fighter but one who lacks the control/restraint of a black belt.

Aggression is as vital part of a person's arsenal as the fist or foot. Yet we encourage peaceful zen minds and calculating sparring tactics from day one. More often than not aggression is discouraged.

I feel this is mostly a karate problem as we karsteka often have very fixed ideas about mindset and the ideal of the controlled karsteka.

Couple of thoughts, Dave...I don't think a student can maximize power output with bad form.

As for aggression being discouraged, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but maybe I am. When you say " as we karsteka often have very fixed ideas about mindset and the ideal of the controlled karsteka." are you talking about instructor's, or the school's policies, regarding sparring and nobody actually hitting each other too much, if at all?

If so, I agree. And I see it as a problem. Perhaps even the death of Karate schools in our country in the coming decades.

 

[CB Jones]

I believe I did clarify that power IMO comes from technique, so I'm not trying to suggest bad form would be encouraged though I would be less concerned with it if the student was successfully maximising power output.

It's a bit like the tkd idea that red belt comes before black as a warning because at that stage you have a technically proficient fighter but one who lacks the control/restraint of a black belt.

Aggression is as vital part of a person's arsenal as the fist or foot. Yet we encourage peaceful zen minds and calculating sparring tactics from day one. More often than not aggression is discouraged.

I feel this is mostly a karate problem as we karsteka often have very fixed ideas about mindset and the ideal of the controlled karsteka.

The only problem I could see occurring is the focus on power in the beginning can result in short cuts and bad form. Learning control and increasing speed and power as your body can control it minimizes the bad habits that you have to correct.

 

[DaveB]

Couple of thoughts, Dave...I don't think a student can maximize power output with bad form.

As for aggression being discouraged, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but maybe I am. When you say " as we karsteka often have very fixed ideas about mindset and the ideal of the controlled karsteka." are you talking about instructor's, or the school's policies, regarding sparring and nobody actually hitting each other too much, if at all?

If so, I agree. And I see it as a problem. Perhaps even the death of Karate schools in our country in the coming decades.

I'm talking about zanshin, Mushin, kime and control. All useful concepts but sometimes we get too cerebral. Effective martial arts requires the ability to turn on aggression without being blinded by it. But I have yet to see the turning on part being actively encouraged, only the control.

 

[Buka]

I'm talking about zanshin, Mushin, kime and control. All useful concepts but sometimes we get too cerebral. Effective martial arts requires the ability to turn on aggression without being blinded by it. But I have yet to see the turning on part being actively encouraged, only the control.

I hope you're wrong, about the aggression not being actively encouraged, at least in striking Arts. Done properly by the right trainer, and harnessed, it is a valuable fighting component.

 

[oftheherd1]

Ability to accurately punch or kick to a specific spot

I agree and would add that one can and should learn to place the spot where they want it to be. Then about 1/4 inch from the intended target when sparring with a practice opponent, or 1/2 to 1 inch inside a real opponent is always a choice. To me that is not quite the same as pulling a punch (or kick). There is full force at the point intended, whether or not it is just before the practice opponent, or inside a real opponent. That is what we were taught when I studied TKD.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm talking about zanshin, Mushin, kime and control. All useful concepts but sometimes we get too cerebral. Effective martial arts requires the ability to turn on aggression without being blinded by it. But I have yet to see the turning on part being actively encouraged, only the control.

I'm not sure how anyone can teach either fighting or self-defense without talking about proper use of aggression.

 

[DaveB]

I hope you're wrong, about the aggression not being actively encouraged, at least in striking Arts. Done properly by the right trainer, and harnessed, it is a valuable fighting component.

I'm not sure how anyone can teach either fighting or self-defense without talking about proper use of aggression.

Precisely.

The trouble is talking about it is the limit for some groups.

New question.

If not through de-emphasising control how do you cultivate aggression in martial arts training?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Effective martial arts requires the ability to turn on aggression without being blinded by it. But I have yet to see the turning on part being actively encouraged, only the control.

The reason you see this is because people think aggression = anger, and that's when the martial arts get all zen and peaceful of mind. Even outside of martial arts, people view aggression as an anger issue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Precisely.

The trouble is talking about it is the limit for some groups.

New question.

If not through de-emphasising control how do you cultivate aggression in martial arts training?

Control and aggression are not opposites. Controlled aggression is much more useful than uncontrolled aggression. I cultivate it by talking about the mindset (if they try to hurt me, that arm is mine - they get it back when it's not a threat any more), actually telling them when they need to be more aggressive (this guy tried to hurt you - don't play nice), and having them sometimes practice delivering with barely-controlled aggression (when it's safe-ish).

 

[DaveB]

Control and aggression are not opposites. Controlled aggression is much more useful than uncontrolled aggression. I cultivate it by talking about the mindset (if they try to hurt me, that arm is mine - they get it back when it's not a threat any more), actually telling them when they need to be more aggressive (this guy tried to hurt you - don't play nice), and having them sometimes practice delivering with barely !controlled aggression (when it's safe-ish).

But that is de-emphasising control. Precisely what I've been talking about.

After all the advocacy for control in this discussion I note the overall quiet when asked about specifics of actually developing aggression.

I think though we fight in an optimised state when used together, control and aggression are, if not opposites, certainly opposing forces.

I reiterate, I've never dismissed the need for control, just it's place in early training.

I question the value of telling people who can't yet hit to their full potential nor understand the pants soiling mind squellching effects of adrenalin in real combat that the first thing they need to learn is technical control.

And while emotional control is an answer to the problem of combat stresses and adrenalin, I think learning to summon, temper and turn off aggression goes much further towards teaching emotional control than keeping good form.

 

[JowGaWolf]

After all the advocacy for control in this discussion I note the overall quiet when asked about specifics of actually developing aggression.

Here's your answer to developing aggression. The first step is to remove emotion from triggering aggression. Students need to understand this.

When you brutally step on an ant or a roach you are displaying aggression without anger. When you shoot an animal you are expressing aggression without anger. In terms of self defense when people shoot another person (sometimes killing that person) they are often displaying aggression without anger. In the context of martial arts students must understand that aggression and anger are not the same thing. When they punch, kick, and spar against one another, it should be done without the emotion of anger or fear. When this happens there is only "pure unfiltered aggression left." This type of aggression is important because it's not controlled by fear or emotions. It is controlled by purpose and focus which in turn is controlled by the person.

Now to your specific question on how to actually develop aggression. I encourage students to attack with maximum force in forms. In sparring I encourage students to spar without the emotions of fear, anger, and doubt dictating their aggression. If I see a student do something out of anger then I immediately stop that student, lecture the student, and correct the student's behavior. I even let them know that they can hit their opponent hard if they want to. They just can do it out anger or fear. Then I remind them that they will get what they give. By doing this students learn to be aggressive without emotions blinding them to the task at hand. Not sure if anyone noticed but when I spar I tend to smile and laugh a lot, even if I'm the one getting a beating. Even when I up my level of aggression, I'm still enjoying the sparring without anger driving my aggression. I think it would be the same for me if I was in a real fight. Thinking back on the fights that I had in my youth, I think the only fight that I lost was the fight where my anger controlled my aggression. With the other fights, I didn't have any anger, I was more focused on not being beaten up than on feeling any type of emotion.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Controlled aggression is much more useful than uncontrolled aggression.

I think this as well. I rather fight someone with uncontrolled aggression than fight someone who was in controlled of their aggression. People who have uncontrolled aggression are often using emotion based aggression. For example, someone may be aggressive towards me because they are angry at me. A person like this is easy to defeat because I would only need to change their emotion from anger to something else. In the case of a street fight, a person can be aggressive towards me out of anger. If I change that anger into fear then the aggression will stop. If a person is aggressive out of fear then that fear can be changed into a feeling of safety and the aggression will stop. If someone comes in without emotions tied to aggression then I'm in trouble, because that person is willingly driving at aggression.

I think of uncontrolled aggression as something similar to rabies.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I question the value of telling people who can't yet hit to their full potential nor understand the pants soiling mind squellching effects of adrenalin in real combat that the first thing they need to learn is technical control.

What happens if you jab a heavy bag as hard as you can with a poorly aligned fist? If you fail to maintain the proper alignment of your wrist (control the technique), then it will result in injury of the wrist. Learning to control the punching technique and not allowing intense levels of aggression to break that technique is vital.
Example of people not controlling the technique

Here's a good example of a guy who does not control the technique of kicking. But he has aggression

Kung Fu wang there's a leg sweep at 1:10 that you'll like. It's not the best one lol.. but you can see that the other guy didn't like it.