Points to ponder

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Kirk
It's on my site, but here's the direct link.

Thanx, I knew I saw it.

Heres the question. Who taught Chow Jiu-Jitsu?
Mitose taught Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu as one art.
and why is Kenpo separate from Karate?

If they are basing the Kenpo on Chows fathers Kung-Fu, then why not call it Kung-Fu and why use a Karate ranking system.

I know Emperado says his Kenpo was Chinese and Mistose was trained in Japan. I also know there are a lot of people who dispute Mitose ever going to Japan but there is no other explanation of where he received his knowledge. If he received it in Hawaii and not Japan, it would be to easy to prove.

 

[chufeng]

Akja,

Granted you did have 5 years if Judo but that has no consequence on a chinese based Gung-Fu system.

Of course it does...our system includes a number of throws and chin na techniques...not having to learn the principles of kuzushi and leverage for the throws in YiLi made them much easier to learn.

Show me an instructor who isn't openminded and I'll show you an instructor who stopped learning!

Couldn't agree with you more...
One of the many requirements Sifu Starr had for seniors was an exploration of other systems...to include researching the histories AND training in another system...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[James Kovacich]

I'm glad to see you don't lose your head as easy as I do! Yes 5 years of Judo is a lot and that alone is more experience than many around us!

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by akja
Thanx Doc,

As we all know there are always 2 sides to a story and sometimes even more. Actaully Ed parker Jr. allowed someone to display his fathers origianal certificate on their site. It was Karate(or Karate-do I don't remember), Jiu-jitsu and Kenpo all on the same certificate from Chow.

Who taught Chow Jiu-Jitsu? All I know is James Mitose taught Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu as one art.

I don't want to get started on Mitose, my position there is a matter of record. "Kenpo-jiujitsu was always a "generic" term for the arts basically meaning "a Japanese interpretation of Chinese arts" in Japan.

However the nature of the islands of the time had everyone training with everyone else. Thre was very much less "style distinction" over functional training. Chow was very adept at matwork and jiujitsu from his training with Henry Okazaki in DanZan Ryu. Although it is not generally known, Ed Parker was an accomplished grappler as well.

So it was not unusual to place more than one art on a diploma. One of these diplomas was put in Leilani' Parker's book on her husbands life, published by my then student and my black belt, Ed Parker Jr. I had seen the diploma shown to me by E.P. Senior many years ago along with literally a ton of others he kept in a file cabinet in his office. Everywhere he went someone was always giving him a "certficate of acknowledgement" of rank. The funny thing is Ed Parker didn't care about rank only in knowledge and personal growth and skill. One of his favorite sayings about all martial artists and his own students was, "Just because the stripes show, don't mean that you know." The business of kenpo produced alot of rank but not necessarily real knowledge, and he hated it.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Doc
I don't want to get started on Mitose, my position there is a matter of record. "Kenpo-jiujitsu was always a "generic" term for the arts originating in Japan.

However the nature of the islands of the time had everyone training with everyone else. Thre was very much less "style distinction" over functional training. Chow was very adept at matwork and jiujitsu from his training with Henry Okazaki in DanZan Ryu.. Although it is not generally known, Ed Parker was an accomplished grappler as well.

So it was not unusual to place more than one art on a diploma. One of these diplomas was published in Leilani' Parker's book on her husbands life, published by my then student and my black belt, Ed Parker Jr.

Thank you for taking the time to answer me. And yes I beleive that Kenpo and Kempo and Jujitsu are general terms and that is why I chose them.

I really don't mean to push to hard but if I didn't learn anything else from my brother-in-law, I did learn that when we sparred and I went a little to hard while sparring he explained to me that no matter how hard I came at him, he will do the same plus a little bit more. That is his right as my teacher.

It might not be a good excuse for my actions but I kind of live by it. Please excuse my rudeness.

Being in your position you may know some of the Kenpo oldtimers here in San Jose. My wifes uncle Chevo Macias, (No relation to my Sifu who is Macias also) he also goes by Frank received his Shodan back in the '60's or early '70's. I don't know his instructor but he still trains with him to this day and he has wanted me to train with them. I don't feel that I have anything to offer them although I would like Chevo to possibly take an advisory position to help guide me as I get established.

 

[Disco]

AKJA, Go train with them. It's not what you can offer them, it's what they can offer you.

 

[sweeper]

no matter how hard I came at him, he will do the same

I have seen a few first time sparrers get knocked down from that one

They learn control fairly quickly...

 

[GaryM]

I don't know his instructor but he still trains with him to this day and he has wanted me to train with them. I don't feel that I have anything to offer them although I would like Chevo to possibly take an advisory position to help guide me as I get established. [/B]

Dude, do you know what you are saying? Do you know it all? If you have a chance to learn don't turn it down. Your statement speaks volumes. A true teacher is not so full that he can only give information, A true teacher realizes how empty he really is. Boy ,wasn't that philosophical and profound. (yet kinda not politically correct, sorry ladys, add /hers to above statements) No, really,a teacher should never forget how to be a student. The only real thing you need to give your teacher is enthusasim and commitment. Lose the ego and learn what you can. Something I once read that I have found to be true, The hardest thing to do in martial arts is to find a great teacher.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by sweeper
I have seen a few first time sparrers get knocked down from that one

They learn control fairly quickly...

Thats exactly what it was about, control.

I'm not out of control just tired of these wannabe fighters trying to judge what they don't understand. If it does not fit their profile and I wasn't taught by an "approved Instructor" then I must be wrong. Ican't fight ecause they said I can't.

I've pretty much had it with the mentality of the "old ways" are the only ways and "you have to learn the whole system before creating your own."

What a bunch of horse crap. "if it aint broke, don't fix it." Wake up, what planet have you been on. I've never heard of a RyuShiKan or a Yili until coming hear, much less any fighters or any note worthy people in general!!!

The arts I draw from are proven, time tested fighting arts. Period, not Ryuwhateveritis or any other art I deem not fit for my method of teaching and training.

The guys I'm referring to have really made me help make a huge decision. I will continue to learn from all of my instructors who don't amount to anything according to the word of whoever he is. And I will teach those arts in a fashion that is demmed approriate by "my instructors!"

But in "my system" to be deemed worthy by the world it will need to be better. I've refrained from saying that out of respect to the MT talkers. Thats what someone is "a talker" if they make judgements without knowing. Talk is cheap and meaningless.

There is no room in my system for this traditionalism as you see it. Its a fighting art. Thats what its about being an effiecient fighter. No wasted movement, thats the way I teach and that will never change.

Ryushiki, you think your the ultimate judge of who is who and you bash Americans way of doing things yet your name sounds American! Who are you?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
What a bunch of horse crap. "if it aint broke, don't fix it." Wake up, what planet have you been on. I've never heard of a RyuShiKan or a Yili until coming hear, much less any fighters or any note worthy people in general!!!

Most people havn’t heard of RyuShiKan because it is the name of my dojo and not the style the style I train in. I believe my website even states that.

Originally posted by akja
Ryushiki, you think your the ultimate judge of who is who and you bash Americans way of doing things yet your name sounds American! Who are you?

I see it is time for the ad hominem attack since you can’t support your ideas with any sort of logic.
First off, I don’t have to be a gourmet to know what tastes like crap or not, and don’t have to be a bloodhound to know BS when I smell it.
I have also never claimed to be any “ultimate judge of who is who”
Secondly, most people that see my name think I am not American…..or at least not of American ancestry.
I don’t bash the American way of doing things. I do dislike the way a certain group of people (not just Americans) claim certain things in the MA and think they have built a better mouse trap.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Most people havn’t heard of RyuShiKan because it is the name of my dojo and not the style the style I train in. I believe my website even states that.





I see it is time for the ad hominem attack since you can’t support your ideas with any sort of logic.
First off, I don’t have to be a gourmet to know what tastes like crap or not, and don’t have to be a bloodhound to know BS when I smell it.
I have also never claimed to be any “ultimate judge of who is who”
Secondly, most people that see my name think I am not American…..or at least of American ancestry.

Were you born Japanese? Your name sounds French but it is typical sounding of America. Mine comes from Croatia but I'm just as much Spanish, thats because I'm from the land of all nations and I'm 3rd generation American.

If you red your posts, you do appear the ringleader.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
Were you born Japanese? Your name sounds French but it is typical sounding of America. Mine comes from Croatia but I'm just as much Spanish, thats because I'm from the land of all nations and I'm 3rd generation American.

If you red your posts, you do appear the ringleader.

Quite frankly I could really careless what your genealogical background is since it has no bearing on this subject.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Thats exactly what it was about, control.

I'm not out of control just tired of these wannabe fighters trying to judge what they don't understand. If it does not fit their profile and I wasn't taught by an "approved Instructor" then I must be wrong. Ican't fight ecause they said I can't.

I've pretty much had it with the mentality of the "old ways" are the only ways and "you have to learn the whole system before creating your own."

What a bunch of horse crap. "if it aint broke, don't fix it." Wake up, what planet have you been on. I've never heard of a RyuShiKan or a Yili until coming hear, much less any fighters or any note worthy people in general!!!

Sounds like you are getting a little out of control after all...

Learning an entire style before trying to modify it is actually a good idea... If you were fixing the engine of your car, and addressed only the bits you understood in an attempt to make the entire vehicle work better, you may well end up creating only a redundant system, or worse yet shortcircuiting something else you didn't know was there...

You haven't heard of Yiliquan because a) we are a very small school; b) your profile says you are from California, and we have historically only ever been in the Midwest (Nebraska and Iowa - we now have training groups on the East Coast, Pacific Northwest as well as the Midwest, and I was the first one to take Yiliquan to Japan where it was very well received). While Yili may only be 21 years old, it is based on Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua (which I am sure you have heard of) and Baixingquan (a Northern Chinese style with a very long lineage). Given the arts you have studied and the orientation you have toward MA in general, it doesn't surprise me that you haven't heard of us.

The arts I draw from are proven, time tested fighting arts. Period, not Ryuwhateveritis or any other art I deem not fit for my method of teaching and training.

The arts Yili draws from ar time tested as well, as is Yili in a more limited sense (given the considerably safer environment we live in these days, the "opportunity" for people to "test" their arts is much less than in the past).

What exactly are your criteria for determining an art that you would deem unfit for your method of training and teaching? I am curious how your method is so unique that the elements of other styles are deemed unfit for your use...

The guys I'm referring to have really made me help make a huge decision. I will continue to learn from all of my instructors who don't amount to anything according to the word of whoever he is. And I will teach those arts in a fashion that is demmed approriate by "my instructors!"

Great! But just remember that folks will still want clarification on your training, clarification like you provided elsewhere on this forum. As long as you have that ready for their examination, you shouldn't have any trouble...

But in "my system" to be deemed worthy by the world it will need to be better. I've refrained from saying that out of respect to the MT talkers. Thats what someone is "a talker" if they make judgements without knowing. Talk is cheap and meaningless.

So how about this - how can I obtain a video of what you do, a general orientation video of some sort? I would love to see what you do - maybe I can learn something new! Or maybe not, but I'll never know until I see it... Of course, the same could be said in response to your comments aimed at RyuShiKan, but blanketing over to touch Yiliquan...

There is no room in my system for this traditionalism as you see it. Its a fighting art. Thats what its about being an effiecient fighter. No wasted movement, thats the way I teach and that will never change.

Your comment shows that you have bought into the misinterpretation of Bruce's comment regarding "traditionalism," and have failed to examine Bruce's background for clarification... Traditionalism, in a real traditional system, includes exactly what you are talking about - no wasted movement, practicality as opposed to fluff, all aimed at producing effective fighters. If they didn't do that, they never would have survived to become "traditional." The arts you are probably meaning to identify are often confused for traditional, but they have lost their spirit and intention long ago and now practice their methods robotically, devoid of any real life.

Ryushiki, you think your the ultimate judge of who is who and you bash Americans way of doing things yet your name sounds American! Who are you?

I'm an American. I bash American martial artists all the time, especially the ones that claim ridiculous titles, misused foreign language terms, claims to having ties overseas in some effort to validate the garbage they teach, and those who profess they have come up with a "new and improved" version of some martial art that inevitably results in nothing more than the same old thing taught with the wannabe teacher's personal flair (amounting to no real new approach whatsoever, just the instructor's own ego).

I hope you can continue to post in a less hostile and worked up fashion. I thought that things were progressing nicely after you posted your training background...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Sounds like you are getting a little out of control after all...

Learning an entire style before trying to modify it is actually a good idea... If you were fixing the engine of your car, and addressed only the bits you understood in an attempt to make the entire vehicle work better, you may well end up creating only a redundant system, or worse yet shortcircuiting something else you didn't know was there...

You haven't heard of Yiliquan because a) we are a very small school; b) your profile says you are from California, and we have historically only ever been in the Midwest (Nebraska and Iowa - we now have training groups on the East Coast, Pacific Northwest as well as the Midwest, and I was the first one to take Yiliquan to Japan where it was very well received). While Yili may only be 21 years old, it is based on Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua (which I am sure you have heard of) and Baixingquan (a Northern Chinese style with a very long lineage). Given the arts you have studied and the orientation you have toward MA in general, it doesn't surprise me that you haven't heard of us.



The arts Yili draws from ar time tested as well, as is Yili in a more limited sense (given the considerably safer environment we live in these days, the "opportunity" for people to "test" their arts is much less than in the past).

What exactly are your criteria for determining an art that you would deem unfit for your method of training and teaching? I am curious how your method is so unique that the elements of other styles are deemed unfit for your use...



Great! But just remember that folks will still want clarification on your training, clarification like you provided elsewhere on this forum. As long as you have that ready for their examination, you shouldn't have any trouble...



So how about this - how can I obtain a video of what you do, a general orientation video of some sort? I would love to see what you do - maybe I can learn something new! Or maybe not, but I'll never know until I see it... Of course, the same could be said in response to your comments aimed at RyuShiKan, but blanketing over to touch Yiliquan...



Your comment shows that you have bought into the misinterpretation of Bruce's comment regarding "traditionalism," and have failed to examine Bruce's background for clarification... Traditionalism, in a real traditional system, includes exactly what you are talking about - no wasted movement, practicality as opposed to fluff, all aimed at producing effective fighters. If they didn't do that, they never would have survived to become "traditional." The arts you are probably meaning to identify are often confused for traditional, but they have lost their spirit and intention long ago and now practice their methods robotically, devoid of any real life.



I'm an American. I bash American martial artists all the time, especially the ones that claim ridiculous titles, misused foreign language terms, claims to having ties overseas in some effort to validate the garbage they teach, and those who profess they have come up with a "new and improved" version of some martial art that inevitably results in nothing more than the same old thing taught with the wannabe teacher's personal flair (amounting to no real new approach whatsoever, just the instructor's own ego).

I hope you can continue to post in a less hostile and worked up fashion. I thought that things were progressing nicely after you posted your training background...

Gambarimasu.


:asian:

The arts that I deem unfit are the ones bashing me at the moment. Seriously, it all leads to what works best for me.

Learning a whole system before moving on is a good idea but not necesary. You can't use all of 2 or 3 sytems and use them as one. its overkill and there are no single systems out there that address what I want from the arts. There are arts that "basically" cover all ranges. But nowhere near what is needed to address the new breed of martial artist that is at our footsteps.

I'm the first to say that the UFC is not a real fight and you willrarely see me referance it. But look at the quality of well rounded fighters that are coming up. And they are 20 year olds and younger. Most arts can't produce a fighter of that caliber!

I'm not out of control or headed there. Using that post about control, I sent a message that I learned. If you push, I will also just a bit harder.

I was careful about what I said about Yili. It would be wrong to bash something I have no knowledge of. I stated that before I came in here I never heard of Yili or RyuShiKan. Robert explained to me that is the name of his school. But I am just being me. And you guys keep talking about the new and improved.

When speaking of what I do I try not to use words like better or new and improved. Of course everybody thinks there system ha no wasted movement. If that were true, then we truly would only need to learn one system. But I don't beleive that to be true.

Same goes with covering all ranges. Stand up arts that go way back and most of have seen quite abit of, state (and beleive) that cover all ranges. Its outright wrong. Yet they don't get persucuted for their beleifs and statements.

The persecuted remains to be the ones that are walking their own path. The ones that know that they could enhance things a bit. The ones that don't settle for "the word" as being the final word.

As stated before I'm not ready to start selling videos. But when I am, Ill let you know. But first you'll have to pay for your membership.

Don't read me wrong. If I had anything to hide, I would never of opened up my mouth at all. I would not put my real name out there for the whole world to see. And I would of dissapeared as soon as I got attacked. But be aware, I have big ears and a big mouth.

 

[fringe_dweller]

Hey AKJA,

Just to bring yet another opinion to this quickly degenerating thread....

I don't post a great deal as compared to a number of people on this board I have very limited experience. When I have questions I ask, when I have a possible answer to a question I post. Apart from that I pretty much lurk and read.

RyuShiKan, Yiliquan1 and Chufeng are guys who I see post regularly and who hold very firm opinions on almost all topics that come up. Having sat back and spent most of my time reading since joining this board these guys have been the ones most likely to cut through the crap and get to the heart of a matter - such as Yiliquan1's offer to train with Judo-kid (I think it was jk anyhow).

My training is somewhat simple to recount... I have been training in hapkido for two years now - long time huh? Having watched a number of our senior belts train I am amazed at how much there is ahead that I have to learn - and beyond learning, trying to perform these movements competently. Looking past these guys to our Instructor I am amazed at how far the senior belts have to go before coming close to the effortlessness with which he performs techniques, as well as displaying additional techniques which they do not use. My long winded point? Maybe extra time in one art would allow you to address what you see as incompleteness within what you have learned within that art. Then again, maybe not. It's just my opinion.

Respectfully,

edited: reading a few more threads and it seems there may be more to this argument than I first thought...

 

[RyuShiKan]

I go to the Budo Seminar in Japan every year.
This is not really a seminar per say but a training session.
Every Japanese art is represented there with the exception of Ninja/Ninpo.

I usually head for the Judo since they have former Olympic Gold medalists that teach there. Talk about a quality work out!
Plus they and the Sumo club drink as much as I do after training.
There is one gentleman that is the head instructor and about 70 yrs. old. He has done Judo for 60 years.
When I saw his technique it was very clear he knew what the hell Judo was about and could throw bigger, younger & stronger people with the same effort I use to throw a paper airplane.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Quite frankly I could really careless what your genealogical background is since it has no bearing on this subject.

Correct, geaneology has nothing to do with it, but you are very partial to the Japanese arts and you come accross to me anyway that there is no better. My brother-in-law is caucasion(as if it matters) he was a professional kickboxer and he foughtas a Kumiuchi fighter which Mr. Hayashi blened kickboxing with Judo and called it Kumiuchi. This goes back to the "70's long before the BJJ explosion. My point is he's been through a lot and he stands behind what he teaches, Japanese based martial arts.

I just want to know who I am talking to so much. It really is simple. it does not matter if we think differant or think that we have the ultimate martial art, which I don't. We talk a lot and we should draw a line. I get ticked easy and should try and get a grip.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
Correct, geaneology has nothing to do with it, but you are very partial to the Japanese arts and you come accross to me anyway that there is no better.

Really?
Which Japanese arts would those be?

 

[James Kovacich]

Just because you don't use the names like other people do. It does not mean that you do not comeoff a being partial to Japanese or Okinawan arts. Maybe I would of been more correct saying just traditional.

My point was I was trying to figure out who you are. You are opinionated and probably rightly so. But I am listening.