Plz tell me about To Shin Do Home Study Course

Discussion in 'SKH/Quest/Toshindo/Shadows of Iga' started by KaranAuhi, Aug 24, 2008.

  1. SKB

    SKB Green Belt

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    WOW! Why are we bashing on this fella again?

    Some training is better then no training. In person training is always better.

    What is that old says about "walking in someone's shoes for a mile"..... or some such?
     
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    I dunno...bad habits can become ingrained.

    But to each his own!
     
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  3. GBlues

    GBlues Purple Belt

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  4. JadecloudAlchemist

    JadecloudAlchemist Master of Arts

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    What I am sayiing is people use the Homestudy program as a crutch and an excuse for real training. I used my examples to show you that you don't need lots of money to train also I don't even drive yet I still found a way(friend drove me had to pay him off)




    I ate Ramen and Vitamins. For 2 weeks it didn't effect my body to much. Again it was an example to show you can save money for training if you really want it.

    I thought that too when I bought the complete Liang style Bagua and thought I could learn from it. When I met my teacher and showed him my circle walking he said it was all wrong. See sometimes nothing is better than something.

    I can give my opinion same as you can. I am not the only person who said go find an actual teacher. I gave examples to show anyone and anywhere can get live training they just make excuses and want the easy way out. If you are unwilling to find a way to train with a live teacher then maybe learning by video in your basement is the way for you.

    There is either it is done with a teacher or not with a teacher. Noone is saying videos as a supplement is bad but you got to at least get to a Dojo once a month for corrections.

    I have trained in the Bujinkan and Genbukan and I can tell you, you can't learn it by video.
     
  5. ToShinDoKa

    ToShinDoKa Green Belt

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    Very true and very VERY disappointing. :wah:

    But yeah, if you did want to train with them, you could always just buy a membership. I used to hold membership w/ the IBD (international bujinkan dojo). Not that hard to get. :) Whenever I go to a new dojo, out of respect for their school and way, I wear a white belt.

    1) to show that I'm a novice as far as in their method (and white belts tend to be more approachable and teachable, so others are more apt to help you compared to judging you).

    2) to avoid having to go into detail about what I study or studied w/ those who I'm really not inclined to talk about it w/. (Going in w/ no crest on your gi and a white belt to learn about another art and the way it works is one of the most NINJA things I think a taijutsu practitioner of To-Shin Do or otherwise could do! LOL)

    3) sadly, I admit, for the compliments. To-Shin Do has enhanced my ability to mimick and pick up the principles of other arts rather quickly, because To-Shin Do isn't ridgid and fixed like some arts out there, and encourages body fluidity and adaptation. So when I to the moves of their art (like when I tapped out a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practioner at a BJJ seminar last year) they're like: "Wow, for a beginner, you sure catch on quick!" Of course, they are far more skilled than I am in their discipline, but since they doubted me because of that belt color and the darkness of theirs, well...it's an awesome learning experience!

    GO FOR IT! To Japan! Infiltrate the Bujinkan!
    Just kidding:angel:
     
  6. ToShinDoKa

    ToShinDoKa Green Belt

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    Again, that's a very sad realization.

    I remember back when I trained in the Bujinkan how we read writings about how Hatsumi sensei was offering the teachings to everyone in the world, to unite it. Him being known as a man of integrity, I bet he still holds that view; so you've got to wonder why this is?

    But this is a To-Shin Do thread, so I'll focus on that...
     
  7. HKToshindo

    HKToshindo White Belt

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    I started out with the long distance course. Then I flew to Japan and am here now.

    Do not make my mistake. Not only do you ingrain habits before you can meet with a teacher that are hard to get rid of, but the habits Mr Hayes teaches are wrong according to all the teachers I have talked with here in Japan.

    He has also been lying about his relationship with the Bujinkan and his amount of knowledge. He knows he was not a student and he claims and hints at teaching that he just never got from a real teacher.

    I feel used. I know a lot of Toshindo students will not want to admit the truth. I was in their shoes. Their desire to learn is strong, but they also have an ego that says that they can learn from videos and an occasional seminar even thought Dr Hatsumi himself says you cannot learn ninjutsu from videos. I can see that I was controlled by my ego. I had to face it when it became clear that Mr Hayes was lying. It all seems to clear now, but I was so blind up until now.

    I urge Toshindo home study students and those thinking about it to get away before you gain habits you cannot unlearn.
     
  8. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    I posted this over at another thread where you made similar comments, thought I should add it here too...

    Okay, friend, chill. If memory serves, you were originally here as a full devotee of Hayes and were yelling down the entire Bujinkan version of things, now you have gone to Japan and been given an alternate you are an absolute devotee of Hatsumi and yelling down Hayes and his organisation. Seriously, you need to find a balance which appears to be lacking...

    Why were you so keen on Hayes being the real deal (for you)? You were stating that he was the absolute top Ninjutsu instructor and were going to learn, not from a teacher, but from his DVD Home Study Course. At that point, you had not visited a single class, as you said there were none near you, but were quite vehementally defending Hayes as the true faith. I would like to know what you based your assessment on? Just the books and articles?

    You were advised that the Bujinkan and Toshindo organisations had some issues between them, with both giving versions of history which contradicted each other, and that if you decided to go with one (Toshindo), then that would most likely exclude you from the other. You have then gone to Japan, and seen exactly the same thing.

    In Japan, you have met with instructors and students, including Hatsumi Sensei, who have given you a version which paints Hayes in a very different light to the one you already had him in. And this has given rise to some very angry feelings in you. Why? Hayes has presented the image to his students that he wants, Hatsumi is presenting the image to his students that he wants, both are (most likely) flawed and highly biased, in the end, it doesn't really matter. Go with the teacher you feel can help you most, and don't worry about the rest. Remember, Hatsumi has shown a habit of painting current students in very favourable colours, and then after they leave, saying that "they never really learnt anything, I never showed them anything, they were never here, they never really got it, etc". He did it with Hayes, with Brian McCarthy, even with Tanemura. The class after Tanemura left, Hatsumi got the group of teachers together to show them the "true" ninjutsu, which he had never shown before (to read between the lines, anyone who follows Tanemura will never really get the arts, because they were never taught while Tanmura was there).

    This is not to denigrate Hatsumi or Hayes. Both have their agendas, and that is the normal way of things. The thing is not to take everything you hear as gospel, and not to get so consumed by the words of others that you base your own sense of worth (in the arts) on how you esteem them. They are just human, after all. Hatsumi and Hayes have both gotten quite rich off this...

    If you find yourself getting angry at Hayes (you use the term "hatred" to describe your feelings towards a man you have never met or had any correspondance with as far as I know), I would gently recommend that you look to yourself. Hayes has not betrayed you, he has simply not lived up to the image you had in your mind... or rather, others have knocked him down from the lofty position he occupied in your mind. And that is not a fault of Hayes, rather it is something in yourself that needs looking at.
     
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  9. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    You've highlighted the dangers of video learning, rather than using a video as a help and aid -- but you've overgeneralized into painting Stephen Hayes into some kind of evil greedy monster.

    I don't know the exact extent of his training -- but a fair amount of it is documented. He trained enough to have been listed by Hatsumi as a full instructor. But then he went his own way, which is not the same as Hatsumi's. I suspect Hayes also misunderstood some of the way in which things were handled, because the Japanese culture is very complex and very easy for non-Japanese to misunderstand.

    You've got a chance now to learn the art directly, as it's being taught today. Focus your efforts on learning as much as you can, as correctly as you can. Don't worry about the past and your mis-steps; instead, train hard now.
     
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  10. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It is best not to have wild swings one way or another.

    You have now found your truth and I applaud you for going to the source and training with Sensei! Congratulations on that decision! However temper your new enthusiasm with restraint and train hard but in your case maybe leave your past behind you! From all accounts Mr. Hayes only sold you a DVD course and now you find that it does not meet up to what you experience in Japan. (like very much would) That is okay but to go farther and try to nail him to the wall does you no good at all. Instead focus on your training and continue on.

    One thing that is good is that you now know learning from video tapes is pretty useless without a qualified instructor to show you the way. [​IMG]
     
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  11. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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    These last couple posts are a great example of what happens when someone tries to learn from tape. I think they should be stickied and possibly pasted in every thread pertaining to video learning.
     
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  12. Niko

    Niko White Belt

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    That's a load of crap. All that those posts show is that HKToshindo is a little unbalanced and didn't quite know what he was getting into. If anything should be "stickied", it should be Chris Parker's most recent post!
    But I do agree that any kind of home study course should be a supplement to face-to-face training and not the only form of study that the person does. But I also believe that such courses provided a valuable service for those people that aren't close enough to study regularly with an instructor teaching what they want to learn. Like anything, you get out of it what you put into it. But there is no reason why a person with some athletic ability and dedication can't take a well-constructed home study course, work on it diligently, and make trips as often as possible to get hands-on training with people connected to the course. From what I've seen, getting a Toshindo Black Belt through the home study course is no easy task. Black Belt testing is done only in person with high-ranking instructors and is taken very seriously.

    Keith
     
  13. ToShinDoKa

    ToShinDoKa Green Belt

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    :lool: I can testify to that statement. Heck, I drove up 9 hours (18 hrs. R.T.) to Dayton for my BB testing and found out just how much I was not ready for it. I allowed myself to get comfortable with my own ways of doing things instead of paying closer attention to the vids' advice and the advice from my friends at the closest Quest Center 4 hours away. So, I took what I'd learned from just that one day there, amped up my training to five days a week, for at least 1 1/2 each day, and visited again 6 months later. I went back thrice as confident and apparently performed thrice as well as I had the first time.

    Now I'm sporting a black belt that I know I've earned. On my desk is a BB diploma that I've spent 5 years and countless hours training for. And, most importantly, I can apply what I've learned. Whether I'm rolling with my BJJ and National Guard friends, or going a round or two (or one, as I'm kinda' lazy) with some of the guys who train at my gym, I can hold my own.

    Vids alone, don't recommend it. Vids as a supplement to get you at least moving the right way before you visit a Quest Center or give you ideas for training drills after you've trained with an instructor, I can testify it works pretty well.
     
  14. TaiChiTJ

    TaiChiTJ Brown Belt

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    This is excellent advice!

    :ultracool
     
  15. SensibleManiac

    SensibleManiac Black Belt

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    You can ALWAYS unlearn habits, it might be difficult and wouldbe easier if you learned right the first time, but the fact is that bad habits can always be unlearned.
     
  16. Harald

    Harald Yellow Belt

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    I'd have to agree with what others have stated here. I'd get a course on DVDs as a supplement to my training with a good coach / sensei / whatever, but not as a replacement. Why? Because you really can't replace that stuff with a set of DVDs. That's the harsh reality of it all.
     
  17. TheArtofDave

    TheArtofDave Blue Belt

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    Even though its been a whooping 8 years since a reply on here I'm going to add my 2 cents regardless.

    The To-Shind Do home study course has an option where you an earn rank by sending a video of yourself in performing the bunkai you've learned and it will be graded by the black belts of the system so you can progress to the next belt. They have their own colored belts. So you want to familiarize yourself with them.

    It will take you four years to get to black belt. You can send in videos of yourself until you get to brown belt. You have to attend a class in person to test for black belt. To-Shin Do is not traditional ninjutsu. Its a modern take on the system.

    If you were going to train you'd likely need a training partner and if you were going to video yourself for rank you better have trained each dvd for at least 4 to 5 months before doing so.
     
  18. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    And ten years later, it turns out trying to teach yourself martial arts off the internet is still a terrible idea.
     
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  19. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I can’t rate funny, like and agree at the same time. Why can I only choose one?
     
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  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You posted funny, I'll post agree and if someone else posts like, we'll have covered all three and Martial D can understand it represents us posting on all three options.
     
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