troubleenuf
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OK... on a scale of 1- 10 just how important is Pattern in your program?
Pattern- just how important is it?
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dancingalone
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It is a 10 to me. Virtually everything I teach is either based from forms or uses forms and form drills as a teaching method.
I favor the old kata inherited from the Okinawa and Japan, and I believe the most efficient and potent combinations for actual destructive usages come verbatim out of the forms, provided you understand how to interpret them and you have a comprehensive methodology for practicing and teaching them. It is not enough to practice the base forms to realize these benefits. You have to do a lot more, including partner drills based on the same forms.
However, it should be noted that patterns and pattern-based training are not suited for every aspect of martial arts. I would guess there is little carry-through for example if you are training for Olympic sparring - in that case more modern training methods are probably more applicable. There are probably other examples too.
I favor the old kata inherited from the Okinawa and Japan, and I believe the most efficient and potent combinations for actual destructive usages come verbatim out of the forms, provided you understand how to interpret them and you have a comprehensive methodology for practicing and teaching them. It is not enough to practice the base forms to realize these benefits. You have to do a lot more, including partner drills based on the same forms.
However, it should be noted that patterns and pattern-based training are not suited for every aspect of martial arts. I would guess there is little carry-through for example if you are training for Olympic sparring - in that case more modern training methods are probably more applicable. There are probably other examples too.
For my more traditional classes it is a 10, for my sport type clsses it would be around an 7. For the one's wanting to compete insport poomsae it would be an 15.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
I'd say a 6-7. We have a fairly good balance between poomsae and sparring (and sparring drills) (with a minor sprinkling of "other stuff") but poomsae is one of our main focuses.
High up.
As one of my instructors put it once: It let's you practice certain techniques full force you could never do with a partner.
Naturally you need to know the intention of the move beyond being the bridge from the start to the finish...
As one of my instructors put it once: It let's you practice certain techniques full force you could never do with a partner.
Naturally you need to know the intention of the move beyond being the bridge from the start to the finish...
jthomas1600
Blue Belt
When you say "pattern" are you referring only to poomsae or the use of patterns in general? The reason I ask is because we (and this may be typical of all TKD schools, this is the only one I've attended) actually use several patterns besides the poomsae. We have a kicking pattern (sabong chuck sp?) and a series of hand techs/blocks for each belt level as well, plus of course our one step self defense techs. So I don't know how to quantify it on a 1-10 scale, but between all the things I've listed they take up about half of our class time. The other half varies but includes kicking pads/paddles, sparring, and general conditioning etc.
It seems when we test, the forms, kicking patterns, and basic hand tech patterns is about 75% of what a student is evaluated on.
It seems when we test, the forms, kicking patterns, and basic hand tech patterns is about 75% of what a student is evaluated on.
Me too.
It actually does not matter from what I can tell since all have the one element in common: The technique can be trained without putting a partner in danger. (I am not counting partner work here, obviously)
I also don't think it matters if it is a Poom, Hyong or Kata. As long as the moves are put together in a logical way, even a self composed form can be invaluable.
(actually I have heard that from an intermediate rank on every student should devote some time to think up - and hopefully practice - step sparring sets and forms.)
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
9. As my first instructor said to me, "watch martial artists and you will find those with good form, and who understand form are almost always good at all aspects of the art". I was skeptical at first when he said that to me but these days Ive realised he was spot on.
dancingalone
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There are countless applications varying in levels of sophistication and thus requiring also varying levels of timing and skill. They can include locks, throws, chokes. Strikes can produce different effects and different types of damage depending on the weapon chosen, the target selected, and the directional flow picked.
I will give a simple example with layered interpretations for illustration of a percussive strike.
Consider the sequences of 4 consecutive double knifehand blocks in Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan or Pyung Ahn Ee-dan). They are frequently done to the left then to the left 45 degree angle then to the right and then finishing to the right 45 degree angle.
White-yellow belt/kids interpretation of the 1st 2 double knifehands: Use the first double knifehand to intercept an incoming straight or hook punch. Use the second double knifehand to strike to the side of the jaw with the lead hand while guarding/checking with the back hand.
Intermediate colored belts/adults: Same as above, except subsitute the target for the second knifehand to be the mastoid muscle of the neck or the base of the skull from behind, which can be lethal places to hit. Restraint should be called for unless the situation truly calls for this.
Advanced colored belts/adults: Use the first double knifehand to intercept an incoming straight or hook punch. Insert a front snap kick to the bladder along with accompanying positional/stance changes if needed. Kick should lower height zone of the attacker, making an easier setup for the double knifehand strike to the mastoid or base of the skull. Substitute or combine strike with a grab of the hair pulling into a knee to the face with either leg. Use of the hikite or pulling/returning arm is encouraged on the block and pull into the strike.
Shodan/adult: Proficient execution of all interpretations above are required and correct usage of the hikite arm is also mandatory. Correct positioning of knifehand block to the punch/strike to numb the striker's arm also required. Must display proficiency of the variable striking surfaces of the "knifehand" motion including a straight blade chop, a thrusting pulled back blade, a forearm substitution, and a hooked back lead hand/inverted rear knifehand. Must demonstrate understanding of situational changes: I.E. Does this application still work if you add in multiple strikes from the attacker? What happens if the effective range is changed?
>Shodan/adult: ???
Hopefully this should give you a taste of what we practice at my school. We drill example applications like these verbatim, generally with partners. When you have learned a few building block ideas such as this one, it becomes quite easy to freestyle countless variations more, especially when you have practiced other single techniques in isolation like throws, etc. Accordingly at advanced levels, we have "bull in the ring" drills where a person faces wave after wave of attackers and they are expected to come up with something impromptu based on the principles taught in kata as above. I also have a Redman suit that I don periodically to let the students test their applications out in full force.
So the forward chamber of the back arm is how you perform the double knife hand block, and the pull into strike comes from that?
dancingalone
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1 opponent.
Most of the bunkai I've seen for multiple opponents seem too fanciful for my taste. This particular one could work for 2 attackers, I suppose.
dancingalone
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Exactly!
Is that how it is performed in the Okinawan versions of the kata, with a forward chamber of the back arm?
dancingalone
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Generally, no, unless you consider Shito-ryu to be Okinawan. IMO it's a characteristic of Japanese karate systems like Shotokan and some Shito-ryu styles. Korean styles seem to chamber to the back before coming forward. Okinawan styles mostly stay neutral or they do come forward a little.
I do not teach my Goju-ryu students this forward chamber of the back arm, but I do like the motion in some respects as it can be a checking movement or possibly even a strike.
So is the application different for the Goju-ryu chamber vs. the Shotokan or Japanese chamber? Do you still have the push pull in the Goju-ryu double knife hand block?
dancingalone
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The idea of the hikite arm remains constant, though in Goju-ryu it is more likely to be done off mawashi uke than shuto uke. Knifehand blocks just aren't are emphasized in Goju-ryu compared to the Shuri-te styles.
