Parental Discipline?

[sgtmac_46]

"EDMOND, Okla. - Tasha Henderson got tired of her 14-year-old daughter’s poor grades, her chronic lateness to class and her talking back to her teachers, so she decided to teach the girl a lesson.
She made Coretha stand at a busy Oklahoma City intersection Nov. 4 with a cardboard sign that read: “I don’t do my homework and I act up in school, so my parents are preparing me for my future. Will work for food.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10075910/

Interesting tactic, and good for those parents. It seems this whole idea got the "it'll ruin her self-esteem" crowd all riled up. I like the quote from the psychologists suggesting she should "catch her being good"....More asinine advice from usual suspects.

I've had professor's like this guy, and the question I always asked, and failed to get an answer about is "In what way does this damage the child?" They usually mumble some vague reply about self-esteem and emotional development. As if saying "Hey, you're doing great with the basketball and track" is going to bring the grades up. lol.

It's apparent that this psychologist's beliefs on development are (among many) all rooted in the mid-20th century junk science known as "Skinnerian conditioning" (i.e. reward positive behavior, ignore negative behavior...blah blah blah). Oh well, just my opinion.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

"It's apparent that this psychologist's beliefs on development are (among many) all rooted in the mid-20th century junk science known as "Skinnerian conditioning" (i.e. reward positive behavior, ignore negative behavior...blah blah blah). Oh well, just my opinion.

Perhaps in an interpretation of "Skinnerism". Actual Behaviorism (and Skinner was only one of many, albeit the most well known) is about strict accountability - no do, no get and it does include aversive stimuli for bad behavior (Punishment, while not a primary focus, exists and "you don't get to go out until your homework and chores or completed", is Negative Reinforcement). There's nothing "junk science" about recognizing that individuals engage in behaviors that they get something out of - billions have been made in marketing by firms and individuals who have discovered this truth.

As to the case in point, her daughter did need to be held acountable for her actions; however, the manner used was probably not the best, IMO.

 

[BrandiJo]

I dont think any thing is wrong with what the parents did, if the child was acting in a way that would lead to that life style, then expose her to it. Aunt did something simler with her daugther when she was 16 and on drugs for atleast 2 years nad would not stay in a rehab program and ran away 6 times in the last year. Her mom and my mom took her down to teh homeless shelter had her work a 12 hr day and told her that if she keeps this up she will be on the other end of it, if shes alive enough to even get to a shelter. after about a nother 4 months of her behavior she changed and is now 19 in the local cumminity college and trying to make a good life for herself

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

What steams me is that no one, in this example, showed the least bit of concern for the emotional health of the drug addicts and alcoholics these parents were obviously derisive of, having this child don such a sign.

 

[shesulsa]

Donald Wertlieb, a professor of child development at the Eliot-Pearson Department of Child Development at Tufts University, warned that such punishment could do extreme emotional damage. He said rewarding positive behavior is more effective. “The trick is to catch them being good,” he said. “It sounds like this mother has not had a chance to catch her child being good or is so upset over seeing her be bad, that’s where the focus is.”

Clearly this "expert" has never raised teenage girls. At 14, if my mother told me she was so proud of me doing something good I'd do my VERY best not to do it again. Please my mother? Ick.

I think there are some effective ways of dealing with the behavioral problems that teens present, but there just is not one answer for all kids.

I think standing WITH HER on the corner and having her hold such a sign is a far better reality check than a belt across the legs or a right hook. I also like the idea of taking kids to a homeless shelter and making them do volunteer work. There's few things more empowering than helping someone else and it's a good reality check.

 

[terryl965]

Well i believe the parent did a good thing it did not envolve beaten the child and it help the child learn a valuble lesson in this stage of her life.
Terry

 

[heretic888]

It's apparent that this psychologist's beliefs on development are (among many) all rooted in the mid-20th century junk science known as "Skinnerian conditioning" (i.e. reward positive behavior, ignore negative behavior...blah blah blah). Oh well, just my opinion.

No offense, sgtmac_46, but it sounds to me that not only do you not understand the cooky pseudo-Rogerian approach this psychologist seems to be coming from, but you also seem to have a rather superficial understanding of behaviorism as a whole.

While I personally think behaviorism as a whole has about as much explanatory power as pure Freudianism, the fact of the matter is they have the empirical data to back up their claims about conditioning and reinforcement. In this context "junk science" simply means "science I don't agree with", not "science that has no supporting evidence and data".

This is why, in general, I am very skeptical of any general interpretations and understandings most of the general populace has of psychology and psychiatry (which is often given the derogatory "psycho-babble" appelation). Most of the time, they have no clue what they're talking about.

Laterz.

P.S.: The evolutionary psychology you hold in such high regard is a direct outgrowth of the claims and principles of behaviorism.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I think standing WITH HER on the corner and having her hold such a sign is a far better reality check than a belt across the legs or a right hook. I also like the idea of taking kids to a homeless shelter and making them do volunteer work. There's few things more empowering than helping someone else and it's a good reality check.

You have a point there.

 

[Phoenix44]

What I want to know is this: what were these parents doing when this kid was 4? 8? 10?

 

[arnisador]

This is not OK, to my mind. If the child is obedient enough to stand there and hold teh sign, the parents can get her to do what they want with respect to HW etc.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Clearly this "expert" has never raised teenage girls. At 14, if my mother told me she was so proud of me doing something good I'd do my VERY best not to do it again. Please my mother? Ick.

I think there are some effective ways of dealing with the behavioral problems that teens present, but there just is not one answer for all kids.

I think standing WITH HER on the corner and having her hold such a sign is a far better reality check than a belt across the legs or a right hook. I also like the idea of taking kids to a homeless shelter and making them do volunteer work. There's few things more empowering than helping someone else and it's a good reality check.

I most heartedly agree. Many parents would not have bothered. This mother stood with her daughter on the corner to teach her a valuable lesson about life...something no amount of "$150.00 per hour" therapy by a noted psychologist or psychiatrist would ever accomplish.

 

[sgtmac_46]

What I want to know is this: what were these parents doing when this kid was 4? 8? 10?

I'd say the fact that this daughter was obedient enough to do what she was told when standing on the corner shows that they were right where they needed to be. When this girl became a teenager, she started exhibiting behavioral problems, and the parents dealt with it decisively and effectively....bravo.

Too many parents today decide what their kids need....is an attorney. Any teacher in here can confirm that, normally when a teenager starts having behavior problems in class, the parents side with the child and blame the teacher. Children learn quickly that all they need to do is divert blame (i.e. "Mom, it's not MY fault, my teacher doesn't like me and picks on me" or "The cops just don't like me, that was my drugs in that coat, the cops planted it there.") then the parents jump in to attorney mode and start blaming everyone but the child. Kudos to this mom for doing the RIGHT thing, and doing something about the REAL problem.

 

[sgtmac_46]

No offense, sgtmac_46, but it sounds to me that not only do you not understand the cooky pseudo-Rogerian approach this psychologist seems to be coming from, but you also seem to have a rather superficial understanding of behaviorism as a whole.

While I personally think behaviorism as a whole has about as much explanatory power as pure Freudianism, the fact of the matter is they have the empirical data to back up their claims about conditioning and reinforcement. In this context "junk science" simply means "science I don't agree with", not "science that has no supporting evidence and data".

This is why, in general, I am very skeptical of any general interpretations and understandings most of the general populace has of psychology and psychiatry (which is often given the derogatory "psycho-babble" appelation). Most of the time, they have no clue what they're talking about.

Laterz.

P.S.: The evolutionary psychology you hold in such high regard is a direct outgrowth of the claims and principles of behaviorism.

I'm sure no offense was intended.

Carl Rogers always struck me as a pure idealist, which probably explains much of his appeal to humanists. His theories are more "good feeling" philosophy than pure science. The idea that everyone will suddenly become perfectly well behaved once they are "respected and progressively understood" seemed a bit absurd and polyannic to me. The problem with Carl Rogers is that his claims are a lot more abstract and vague, and therefore, much tougher to attack. Though, you are correct in the sense that most modern schools of thought are based on Carl Rogers theories on self-esteem and "positive self-regard".

Skinnerian Behaviorism, on the other hand, and it's idea that "everyone is born a blank slate" is far more assailable. Skinner's behaviorism has been mostly debunked since the 1960's as a stand-along model for understanding behavior. It doesn't work by itself. The rats only do what they are trained to do in the Skinner box, and their behavior deteriorates once multiple variables are introduced. That's because Skinner never understood that people are NOT born a blank slate, but have genetic hardwired behavior that exists beyond his conditioning. Skinner lost his grip on legitimate thought when DNA was discovered.

Again, though "novice" I may be, entirely ignorant on this topic I am not.

My main issue, however, is the idea that purely positive motivation is the answer to all behavior problems. It's never been shown to be extremely effective in all situations by itself.

What's MORE, I did not attack the study of behaviorism as whole, but Skinnerian Behaviorism which begins with the misconception that animals are born blank slates. Later behaviorism theories understood the role genetics played in behavior. However, I don't entirely buy in to the behaviorist school of thought because it entirely dismisses internal processes as being even relavent. Myself (though, as you pointed out, i'm merely an ignorant novice) prefer a more hollistic (Post-Skinnerian) understanding of behavior and human nature.

 

[Cryozombie]

What I want to know is this: what were these parents doing when this kid was 4? 8? 10?

Excellent question.

 

[Kane]

Interesting form of punishment, but to be honest I don't think I could ever do that to my kid especially me standing right next to her/him. I would sort of feel like it would disgrace my family name if I did so, but that is just me. There is nothing wrong and in fact the mother is a genius for thinking of such a punishment.

When I have kids I'll just use good ol' fashioned grounding. I will put them in their room and will not let them out, and if they try to rebel against that punishment only then would I spank them.

How would you/do you discipline your children?

 

[Raewyn]

I caught my 7 year old son once stealing money from my partners wallet. I took him down to our local police station, explained to them what had happened, and they proceeded to take his fingerprints and they put him in an empty cell for about an hour, to show him what happens when he is older!!!!! It was the best thing I could have done, as he didnt want the stigma of being known as a thief, and he has never stolen again. Children need to know that there are consquences for almost everything they do!

 

[BlackCatBonz]

when you have disrespectful kids telling parents that are disciplining them that they will call the cops and tell them they are being abused....it makes it kind of hard to do your job as a parent.
Kids have a pretty big lack of respect for authority figures these days (their parents) because the law seems to err on the side of caution these days where parents and children are concerned.....one lying phone call and the parents are suspect.

 

[Raewyn]

when you have disrespectful kids telling parents that are disciplining them that they will call the cops and tell them they are being abused....it makes it kind of hard to do your job as a parent.
Kids have a pretty big lack of respect for authority figures these days (their parents) because the law seems to err on the side of caution these days where parents and children are concerned.....one lying phone call and the parents are suspect.

It seems to have gone from one extreme to the other. We had a case over here, a childs step father was put in prison for 1 year as his step son packed a snot with him one day, so then this child rung the police and told them his step father had been abusing him, and as you do, you look into all complaints, but they were showing the kids interview with the psychologists and they were putting words into this kids mouth. In the end the child confessed that he was only trying to get back at his step father and did not realise it would go as far as it did.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I've been a cop for 10 years. I always know what a kid who's in trouble's parents are like before I even meet them. I can spot the kids who's parents will be their child's attorney and attempt to make every excuse for their child's behavior ("It wasn't him, it was his friend, my child didn't have anything to do with it, etc...blah blah blah") I can always spot the parents who's children are going to be criminals by the time they reach 16 years old.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'll share a story with you folks. When I was 3 or 4 years old, I don't remember which--it's been a few years (ok, maybe decades) I was in a grocery store with my mother and grandmother. I wanted a toy water gun, and my mother refused to buy it for me. I decided to slip the watergun in my pocket and slip it out the front door when she wasn't looking.

When my mother found the water gun, she made me go back in to the store and return the toy to the store manager and apologize. They "debated" whether or not to call the police, and it was all extremely traumatic for me (I didn't want to go to that store for a long period of time after that.) From that time to this, just the thought of stealing something gives me a twinge of guilt and shame. I never even thought about stealing anything again.

Now, i'm sure many note psychologists would have labelled what my mother did "abuse" and stated that she brought shame and trauma to my psyche. "How dare she bring shame on a young child and publically humilate him" They'd likely also suggest doing nothing, and waiting until I "Wasn't stealing" and praise me for that positive behavior.....those psychologists would be idiots. Imagine, the audacity of teaching a child that stealing...IS WRONG!!!! Oh, the humanity.

Anyway, despite what some "experts" might tell us, guilt and shame are not ALWAYS wrong to feel....If we've done something to feel guilty and shameful about. The mentality that we should all feel good ALL the time, no matter what we do, has only brought a society that increasingly thinks anything is acceptable and feels that we should simply medicate when we feel guilty or bad. We've forgotten that there is a difference between "Self-Esteem" and "Self-Respect". But I digress.

Thanks mom, you made me the more honest person I am today.