Outside Block vs. Outside Block

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by skribs, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    What terms do you use for each version of the outside block?
    • Taegeuk style - starts from the shoulder, crossing motion, ends with the palm facing out. Usually used to protect your chest or face. Seen in Taegeuks 4 & 6.
    • Palgwe style - starts at the hip or under the arm, scooping motion, ends with the palm facing in. Protects the gut or chest. Seen in the double outside blocks in Koryo and at the start of Keumgang.
    At my school, we teach the Taegeuk style with an open hand, and call it "knife hand block." This gets confusing later on when teaching the Taegeuks, because now it's a "closed-hand knife-hand block". All of the other blocks are taught to our white belts with a closed fist.

    I would like to find a good term that doesn't lead to this future confusion. However, since both blocks travel in the same general direction (inside to outside), I need to find a different name for "outside block" for at least one of them.

    Things I'm considering: call the Taegeuk style a "forearm block", or call the Palgwe style the "scoop block." Both of these seem to fit what I want, but they just don't sound quite right to me. Maybe there's a better term.

    This is in line with a few of my other vocabulary related threads. I'm trying to use a "keywords" system (similar to board games and video games) to give me clear, concise, comprehensive terminology for most common commands.

    How do you differentiate between outside blocks?
     
  2. Gweilo

    Gweilo Master Black Belt

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    Me I favour your Palgwe style, and the reason is, whilst blocking this style, its easier to rotate the hand 180 degrees and catch the opponents wrist, and if you miss the trap, a punch is easier to execute.
     
  3. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    That...wasn't the question.
     
  4. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't know, Skribs, but you have a way with words, at least in English. Forearm block and scoop block seem okay to me. But I'm sure something will come to mind....while you're teaching probably.

    Maybe have some fun and let the students name them?
     
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  5. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    That's an idea. For right now I have to follow my Master's curriculum with my students. This idea is for future use.
     
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  6. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    So we go with the Korean terms equivalent where they describe the part of the forearm doing the blocking. The first variant is an "outer forearm block" and the second variant is an "inner forearm block". Inner and outer forearm are if you're just letting your arms hang loosely by your side the part of your forearm to the outside away from your body and inside (nearest your body), then take in to account whether you rotated your arm and where that blocking surface went.

    We don't consider them different blocks because they both start in the same way - both start at the hip/under the arm, the only difference is wrist/forearm position. You describe the first one as starting from the shoulder, that's incorrect in Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

    The official video from Kukkiwon with Grandmaster Kang Ik Pil demonstrating shows how these block both start in this kind of circular motion with them going via the body then up and out:

     
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  7. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Well, you could follow a theory used in the Chang Hon system. . First determine the contact surface referred to as the tool. Thumb side of arm is inner forearm, and small finger side is outer forearm. Open hand small finger side is "Knifehand" and Thumb Side is Reverse Knifehand. Then for outer forearm you have the Low Block, Middle Block, High Block and Rising Block. If the Hand is open it is the same except Knifehand. . These all travel with the fist / hand at the far side of the body and move across the body or up / down depending on the block. Inner forearm or reverse Knifehand would move in a similar fashion. If they start at the same side shoulder line and move toward the center depending on how far they would be inward or front Blocks. You can substitute "Palm" fro Knifehand where applicable. There are also "Downward" and "Upward" Blocks which designate not only the direction of travel but the level of the block. Again simply specify the tool. What you seem to describe as an open hand block moving upward would be an "Upward Block with the Palm.".
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  8. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    This is a good suggestion. However, "inside block" means a different block in our system; starting from the outside and traveling inward.

    I'm also trying to limit the common terms to just a few syllables. "Ridgehand" is my term for your Reverse Knifehand.

    Like with "inside block", "palm block" specifically means blocking with the palm. We have inside palm block and down palm block. The last block you describe would be "open high block", which is (I believe) the minimum number of syllables to accurately describe that block.

    These are good suggestions, though. They're getting me thinking.
     
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  9. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Are you saying you have a Ridge hand block? I agree with andyjefferies and Earl Weiss in every way. I agree the terminology is different from Kukkiwon to the Chang Hon systems.
    Can you list the blocks you currently use and how you are currently name them, including which part of the arm you are blocking with? I think it will be easier to translate that way.
    FWIW, when we work on open hand blocks, regardless of direction, a common emphasis is that there is often going to be a follow up with the same hand. And a closed hand block typically does Not follow up, especially with the same hand.
    IMHO, if you are wanting an English naming convention you will have to preface whether it is open or closed hand first, and inside/outside direction second. The eliminates the need to identify which side of the arm is used.
     
  10. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    No, we don't have a ridge-hand block. Although technically our outside block is with the ridgehand.

    At my current school, for beginners:
    • Down Block (the first move of Taegeuks #1-3)
    • High Block (same as in Taegeuk #1 or #2)
    • Knife-Hand Block (same as in Taegeuk #3)
    • Inside Block (same as in Taegeuks #1-3)
    • Outside Block (the Palgwe block that I mentioned)
    At higher levels we have:
    • Low Inside Block
    • Palm Block (inside palm block)
    • Palm Block (downward palm block)
    • Open Outside Block
    • Inside Block, Open-Hand
    • Double Low Block (Low X Block)
    • Double High Block (High X Block, Open Hand)
    • A few blocks that don't really have names. One is to defend against roundhouse kicks, which is like a down block + a palm block. The other is a punch defense, which is a knife-hand block + an inside block, which is useful for transitioning into a hip throw.
    There's also a number of blocks that only show up in the forms, many of which have similar names. For example, "double low block" has about 4 different versions, including a low X, a low block to each side, a low block to each side with open hands, or something similar to the double-knife-hand block.

    My plan is:
    • Down Block
    • High Block
    • Inside Block
    • Outside Block (Forearm)
    • Outside Block (Scoop)
    • Closed Fist and Knife-hand variants (closed by default, "open" if knife-hand)
    • Inside Palm Block
    • Downward Palm Block
    • Low Cross Block
    • High Cross Block
    • Side Cross Block (the roundhouse kick defense)
    • Double Inside Block (the punch defense, still fuzzy on that name)
    And then I'd have the other blocks in the forms, but at least the general blocks would be covered.
     
  11. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    I tend to use the term 'parry' rather than block.
     
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  12. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Above highlights semantics issues. As you state above, there are inward and outward blocks in the Chang Ho System. However that is the term "Inward / Outward" that denotes the direction of travel For instance staring at your shoulder line and moving toward the center line is "Inward" . Then there is "Inside / Outside" which can only be determined if there is an adversary present. For example if the person has their arm extended in a punch - palm down and you make contact with the thumb side of their arm it is an "Inside" block. If the contact were on the small finger side it is an outside Block. Nothing magical about terms although once with intuitive meanings are best, so long as everyone understands them.
     
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  13. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    I am not sure I get this. As a preliminary matter we use inward / outward as direction, but nonetheless assume person in front of you has their rm extended in a middle punch. Using your left arm you could do either an inner or outer forearm block. They move in the same direction. If you are a Chang Hon Person think Chon Ji #9 and Do San #1. So, you need to specify the tool.
     
  14. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Nothing wrong with this. It is a common term. However in the Chang Hon system it is used in a somewhat wider sense. Knifehand / reverse knifehand. Turning Kick / reverse turning kick.
     
  15. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    That's something I will consider. I do want to use inward/outward for ax kicks and crescent kicks. The only thing is, I can see how inward and inside could easily be confused. Especially if the student is hard of hearing, or the instructor doesn't enunciate well. The most important is that, to me, it's not intuitive.

    I do agree that as long as the vocabulary is established and strictly used, it should be understood by everyone. I could call them Monkey Block, Cobra Block, Eagle Block, etc. and as long as that's what everyone learns from the start, it could work.
     
  16. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Agree, There are several transitions particularly in TKD BB forms which are a parry. However, you do not hear it termed that way.
     
  17. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    So you are saying the naming convention is predicated by the adversaries position? That is unfamiliar to me in terms of naming convention, but definitely not in strategy.
    I read your post to say the blocking motions would be the same.
    Do you agree with this statement:
    Using the right hand for reference, moving the hand/arm from outside your body (or at the shoulder in your terminology) And moving IN toward the center of your body is Always an inside block of some type. And the opposite is true. Using the right hand, starting at the center of the body or beyond and moving the hand/arm Outward is Always an outside block. Maybe if we can get past the motion semantics we can find common ground.

    I am a bit fixated on Skribs ridge hand reference. I do not ever remember seeing a Block where the arm is traveling inward, the palm is Down and the hand is closed.
     
  18. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Are you referring to move #7, the first move after the first line?

    In you last list I thinks some of this list is a part of the amalgamation of a pooomsae and grouped as such. For example, there may be a down block that is different from what we learn as a white belt but it is still a down block and termed as such when talking about a given form.
     
  19. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    The second lateral section: knife-hand block, followed by a punch.

    Inward: block like in Move #5 in Taegeuk 2.
    Inside: block like Move #1 in Keumgang.
    Outside: block like Move #3 in Taegeuk 6 (down block, front kick, outside block).

    I was merely using "ridgehand" as a more efficient synonym for "reverse knife-hand." I think you're fixated too much on the term. I was simply referring to the part of the hand. That isnt used in an inward block or downward block.
     
  20. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    I wonder if it would help helpful to use standard Kukkiwon terminology when describing these moves, even if you want to call it something else in English. There have been changes to Kukkiwon terminology in the past decade, but in generally they're really consistent.

    "Han sonnal makki" is the movement you're referring to.

    When you refer to ridgehand you mean "sonnal deung", literally the hand position that is the other side of the knife hand (without referring to how it's moving).123
     

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