Practical Application of the Double-Knife-Hand Block

[wab25]

This might be a fun exercise for people to try. In order to get the most out of it, step away from your keyboard and actually do these moves as I describe them. These arts comes from Wabjitsu-do (I am a 21st dan Grand Soke Master in Wabjitsu-do ). For reference, see the first application of the knife hand block in this video (from earlier in the thread). I want you to do 3 different techniques, but the hand motions will be exactly as shown in the first application in the video.

Here is a video describing some potentials as above.

Technique 1 - Cross Block - This technique is similar to the first application in the video. The chambering hand is the blocking hand in this case. However, it is not a parry, but a strong knife hand block. If a straight punch is coming to your face, the "chambering" hand crosses your center line, the knife edge blocks the forearm of the punch hard enough to break the forearm, or at least seriously deflect the punch. Then, as the same hand extends back, it is merely measuring distance, feeling the opponent.

Technique 2 - Under Punch - (this is shown once in the same application in the video) As the chambering hand chambers, the other hand delivers a straight punch underneath. This is a hard punch, intent on breaking the short ribs. The chambering hand can be seen as a parry, a distraction or a cover, but the technique here is the straight punch. After the punch is delivered, the chambering hand extends, measuring distance.

Technique 3 - Knife Hand Block - This is the block as normally done in Karate or TKD. The hand chambers, then fires a strong block, using the knife edge of the hand. Exactly as done in Karate and TKD.

First, do each of these techniques 20-50 times. Or at least enough that you can develop speed, power and control to deliver the block or punch as indicated in the technique. Once you can develop reasonable speed and power, focus on what your body needs to do to accomplish that. What are your shoulders, hips, legs, weight, momentum, torque, feet, ... what are they doing? In all 3 techniques, you will find that your body must move very differently in order to accomplish the intended block or strike. In order for me to accomplish #1, I use a lot of my abs, contracting... it almost feels like a crunch, the power is in rotating towards the back side. In doing #3, I don't use my abs at all to crunch, the rotation is in the opposite direction. In addition, there are a ton of other changes that need to be made to generate and apply force in these 3 areas. In each case, your arms and hands are waving the same way.

Please, do not try these in your school, do not believe that these are martial techniques... unless your check clears, then I will send you a Multi-Dan certificate that you can frame (cash works too)

This is why techniques are named or described as what they are. If you really break down all the motions, and muscle movements required... it will take a lot of time, and be very hard to teach. By teaching this movement as a "knife hand block," people will produce the correct body movement. If you tried the exercise above, you found that you had to experiment a little, in order to put the force where it needed to be. This way, you could define the start pose, the end pose and the path between... but by specifying that it was a knife hand block, with the outstretched hand... it tells you where, when and what direction to generate the force. This causes your body to move a certain way. That is the purpose for the technique, to move your body to generate and control this specific force. Once you can do that, there are a lot of ways to apply that force or that body movement.

In this case, you can do the entire body movement with very little help at all from the other hand. We can easily find other arts, using a similar block, but with different hand placement, or even no hand placement of the other hand. They may leave it in guard even, and still develop the same power on that block. So, each art puts that other hand in a place that they like. Some favor keeping their guard up, some favor prepping for the next attack... here, depending on what they feel is the next attack, may determine where it goes. Some, may just like the way it looks in a certain place.

So, when I learn a new technique, I learn it as a beginner. "This in an upward block, that will break a baseball bat being swung down at you." Ok. I practice and learn that block, with that intent in mind. I don't really believe it will break a bat or even stop a bat... but I do it with that intent anyway. As I get more comfortable generating that intent, now I can start studying what those postures and intent are causing my body to do. What it is causing my body to do, is the whole point, thats what I need to learn.

Think of Judo. They teach you to grab the other guys lapel, then push a little and pull hard, then you step in and throw the guy. Where the lapel is, doesn't matter at all. You can pull it as far as you want, it doesn't matter. What does matter, is the structure and balance of the other guy. When you pull, you are effecting their structure and balance. If the other guy has a super loose gi, you might need to move his lapel much further, in order to move him. It does not matter how good you are with gripping or moving the lapel, if it never effects the other guy's body.

So, naming a movement a upward block, or straight punch can be thought of as the "gi lapel" your instructor is pulling, to put your body through the correct sequence. As you learn the body sequence, you no longer need to be pulled through it, but can now find your own ways to apply that sequence.

Now our katas and forms become more than just a dictionary of movements. They become like the rules of grammar for your language. How do different movements fit together, how do they effect one another, how does their meaning change in context? As you learn the grammar, you become an author... and authors occasionally break the rules....

 

[skribs]

Except that the paradigm of fighting that uses staggered hands for a guard is not based on absorbing hits by covering. That comes from boxing and is a result of training with gloves.

This is the problem with interpreting new ideas by old standards.

What?

 

[skribs]

Technique 2 - Under Punch - (this is shown once in the same application in the video) As the chambering hand chambers, the other hand delivers a straight punch underneath. This is a hard punch, intent on breaking the short ribs. The chambering hand can be seen as a parry, a distraction or a cover, but the technique here is the straight punch. After the punch is delivered, the chambering hand extends, measuring distance.

How do you get power to do a rib-breaking hard punch if you're punching across your body while twisting the other way?

 

[wab25]

How do you get power to do a rib-breaking hard punch if you're punching across your body while twisting the other way?

You have to move your body differently. Don't twist your hips the other way, until after your used your hips to deliver the punch. Your chambering action in this one, has no power in it, just raising your hand to your ear, as you punch under, with the power of the hip. (this has to be done the karate way, I believe the TKD way is a bit different)

The whole purpose for the exercise, is to see how you can move your arms and hands in the same way, but your body has to do radically different things, depending on which wave is supposed to express the power. Even the order of the parts of your body that move, changes. Just defining a start, end and path of movement is not enough. There is too much variation possible. Naming it a knife hand block with this hand, defines how the power is generated, the order your body parts move... lots of things.

That was the idea here, if you change your emphasis, you change the entire movement, even though the starting and ending positions are the same, and even if the hands make the same path.

 

[DaveB]

What?

The idea of a guard as something that sits like a wall covering the body waiting to get hit is not from bare knuckle fighting...

...or to break it down further, you don't use the knife hand guard position like that. Your not covering your solar plexus in case it gets hit, your hand is there in preparation for action. It's an active guard, not a passive one like in boxing.

Think about it, your exposed everywhere except the little spot covered by your rear hand, which is open to make getting your fingers broken super easy.

The rear hand is not there to cover anything, so it doesn't matter if you hold it against the body or an inch away from it.

When you fight, as your attention is on the opponent the position of your hands will shift and vary anyway. That's how you know it's not the kind of detail you need to worry about.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Maybe this approach is unique to southern Chinese Kung-fu ...

In the northern CMA system such as the preying mantis, the form can directly be mapped into application. If training is the same as application, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Solo training isn't the same as training application of techniques.

When you do a form, you are using your body to tell a story. If your audience can't understand your story, there is something wrong with your body language.

 

[skribs]

When you do a dorm, you are using your body to tell a story. If your audience can't understand your story, there is something wrong with your body language.

Why did you quote me in that one? That was @DaveB who said that.

 

[DaveB]

In the northern CMA system such as the preying mantis, the form can directly be mapped into application. If training is the same as application, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

But by the Southern method you spend much less time learning much shorter forms and practice many more applications for each movement. Your solo training becomes way more efficient.

 

[DaveB]

When you do a dorm, you are using your body to tell a story. If your audience can't understand your story, there is something wrong with your body language.

If they can understand the story they can steal it for themselves.

 

[MI_martialist]

I have read and re-read these posts. A few other items: In actual combat, form follows function. In kata / hyung / poomsae, etc., function follows form, so it is difficult to get actual application from the beauty of the form. Combat is messy, so the "form" can and could and sometimes should be messy. It was polished to have a standard, and that's OK, for form purposes. As for the insistence on technique, it simply shows the immaturity of understanding by the OP. No matter what is said, it will always come back to "that's not our style, or how we do it" type of response. Until the OP gains a more mature understanding, this will go around in circles.

Let go of style, of technique, look at the core and see the core, look at the movement, the pose, the posture from all angles in all planes from attacks from all angles in all planes, with and without all weapons, multiple weapons, that each or one of you may have, from all angles in all planes...

 

[Earl Weiss]

, address my belief that holding your hand against your body is bad for a guard position. Why would this be a good thing in a guard?

My address yo your belief is "I agree" . As stated in an earlier post I don't think it should be held against the body. I qualified my response to the Chang Hon system and in that system it is not. So, if some other system chooses to do it I cannot address it. Held away from the body and it works as you say and perhaps the name used in Chan Hon "Knife Hand Guarding" then fits.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I did, I told you it's there because it's an aesthetic choice.

I agree that to n extent many ending positions are aesthetic, or provide a metric the student cn easily aim for and the observer can tell if it's accomplished.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If you have not already done so get "Bubishi, Bible of Karate" although it says bible of Karate it goes into the Chinese foundations for lots of stuff.

 

[Danny T]

I have read and re-read these posts. A few other items: In actual combat, form follows function. In kata / hyung / poomsae, etc., function follows form, so it is difficult to get actual application from the beauty of the form. Combat is messy, so the "form" can and could and sometimes should be messy. It was polished to have a standard, and that's OK, for form purposes. As for the insistence on technique, it simply shows the immaturity of understanding by the OP. No matter what is said, it will always come back to "that's not our style, or how we do it" type of response. Until the OP gains a more mature understanding, this will go around in circles.

Let go of style, of technique, look at the core and see the core, look at the movement, the pose, the posture from all angles in all planes from attacks from all angles in all planes, with and without all weapons, multiple weapons, that each or one of you may have, from all angles in all planes...

Yeah...Have had the opportunity to view old film of masters doing forms from the 20's & 30's many would be unable to compete in today's forms competitions because their forms were based on function and practicality and not looks. Most are more flowing yet very powerful and none had all the hollering seen today.

 

[skribs]

If they can understand the story they can steal it for themselves.

I get the idea of encrypting your curriculum. My Master is very concerned about the copyright for the curriculum at my school (which is why I am hesitant to post a lot of the details of it on here). However, training in something that is designed to obfuscate the meaning will make it hard to teach the meaning.

Yeah...Have had the opportunity to view old film of masters doing forms from the 20's & 30's many would be unable to compete in today's forms competitions because their forms were based on function and practicality and not looks. Most are more flowing yet very powerful and none had all the hollering seen today.

There are several reasons to kiyhap in a fight. I'm also curious what art you're talking about, because Taekwondo wasn't a thing in the 20s and 30s.

 

[DaveB]

I get the idea of encrypting your curriculum. My Master is very concerned about the copyright for the curriculum at my school (which is why I am hesitant to post a lot of the details of it on here). However, training in something that is designed to obfuscate the meaning will make it hard to teach the meaning.

Only if you try to teach it before you understand it.

This knowledge gap re application was deliberately imposed for various social reasons, but the information has always been available to those who wanted it.

 

[Danny T]

There are several reasons to kiyhap in a fight. I'm also curious what art you're talking about, because Taekwondo wasn't a thing in the 20s and 30s.

Didn't say not to kiyap. Kiyap is not hollering. The sound is the manifestation of a kiyap which is short, deep, and explosive.

What was the most influential martial art to TKD, whom did the developer of TKD train, and when did he train?

 

[skribs]

Only if you try to teach it before you understand it.

This knowledge gap re application was deliberately imposed for various social reasons, but the information has always been available to those who wanted it.

Unless it was lost along the way of getting to you.

 

[Danny T]

Only if you try to teach it before you understand it.

This knowledge gap re application was deliberately imposed for various social reasons, but the information has always been available to those who wanted it.

For the most part the information is hidden in plain view. For many it is lost because they were never taught to see it, they were taught specific applications rather than principles & concepts. By understanding the principles and concepts the shown applications are but examples of application. Adherence to specific application limits the practitioner in knowledge and skill/s.