One punch, one kill?

[kenpo_cory]

No one here has mentioned the fact that certain areas of the body do not need to be hit that hard to result in death. The main target that comes to mind is the throat. I've seen people get caught off guard and punched in the throat a few times, it didn't kill em but it didn't take much to drop em.

 

[Shinzu]

i think it would depend on where you hit your opponent. the one hit one kill theory is good to train by to focus all your energy into your attack. in reality it should be one hit one knockout. i practice tang soo do myself and it is a saying we have, but then again we really do not want to kill anyone unless we are facing death ourselves.

i guess it depends on how you read into it.

 

[RanaHarmamelda]

don bohrer

Try his short stories -- I love the Covenant series, but some of his short stories are even better.

By the way, did you know he practices Shotokan Karate? I think he's a 2nd Dan, but I may be wrong on that.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by don bohrer
Mike,

Skills like this are brain teasers for sure. To bad people that practice these techniques don't do them in live combat.



don

I agree!!

Mike

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by MJS
Yup, and thats due to the fact that the guy is standing still!!! Every time you see Dillman doing a KO, the guy is standing there. What is that??

Quite right! If the guy is just standing there, then really what we get to see is blunt force trauma applied to a pressure point area.

However where you state

PP's are going to work best if someone is grabbing you,

, I would have to say attacking you. It doesn't matter what the attack is, punch, kick, push or grab etc. pressure points work better so long as the intent is there and is manifested in the physical.

To get the desired results of these points, which are not that big, you need to pretty much be right on target.

Whilst this is true to some extent, I would say that in general it is more about the direction of your strike to a certain area than being 100% accurate with the strike. Also to attribute a certain reaction to a specific point, when your strike will most likely make contact with a whole bunch of points at the same time, could be little more than guess work.

but you cant tell me that its going to be easy with someone moving around.

Of course not, that's why you need to train hard consistently. It is like any martial art technique..... If you want to do it effectively, you have to train, train, train.
And it is just like learning any other martial art, in that you will be taught, "If someone does this, we will do such and such".
As a white belt you try to pull the new technique off in real time, but without a willing training partner, it doesn't happen.
So you train hard for years and one day someone attacks you and and when he did "this" you did "such and such" and it worked.
As Goldendragon7 has been heard to say, "SAM TING"

--Dave

:asian:

 

[don bohrer]

RanaHarmamelda

I wonder if inspiration for the warriors in the covenant series came from his experiences in martials arts at an early age, or did his writings spark a desire take up an the art.

What were the warriors in his series called?


Mike, the oath is pretty cool.

Now I want to read the books again. Tomarrow it's B&N to pick up the 1st book.

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by don bohrer
RanaHarmamelda
I wonder if inspiration for the warriors in the covenant series came from his experiences in martials arts at an early age, or did his writings spark a desire take up an the art.
What were the warriors in his series called?
Mike, the oath is pretty cool.
Now I want to read the books again. Tomarrow it's B&N to pick up the 1st book.

This is a six part series and Covenant is a man that you'll either pity or hate. The first 100 pages clearly outlines exactly what's going on.
In order the series volume titles are: First series;
1. Lord Foul's Bane, 2. The Illearth War, 3. The Power That Preserves.
Second series; 1. The Wounded Land, 2. The One Tree, 3. White Gold Wielder.

Eoman were the name of a group of 20 warriors and the entire army was called a Warward. The Bloodguard were an entirely seperate group altogether being how they swore eternal fealty to Kevin Landwaster quite literally. They were clearly inspired by Donaldson's exposure to MA's as they use no weapons of any kind (ever) and fought with their bare hands and feet.

A great series... if you enjoyed reading Tolkiens' LOTR saga then you'll fit in nicely with Donaldson's saga of the Leper.

Ralph

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Quite right! If the guy is just standing there, then really what we get to see is blunt force trauma applied to a pressure point area.

True. I regards to the grabbing, while there is still going to be some moving, his arms are, unless he removes them, committed to that attack, therefore giving you an easier target.

However where you state , I would have to say attacking you. It doesn't matter what the attack is, punch, kick, push or grab etc. pressure points work better so long as the intent is there and is manifested in the physical.

In the Filipino arts, they have limb destruction. The goal is to deaden the arm to slow it down, and to allow you more time to attack. For example, hitting the bicep on the inner part of the arm. You have from the elbow to the armpit, giving you a pretty good size area to hit. With Dillmans theory, IMO, is to get a KO. You need to hit mult. spots in succession to set up the KO.

Of course not, that's why you need to train hard consistently. It is like any martial art technique..... If you want to do it effectively, you have to train, train, train.
And it is just like learning any other martial art, in that you will be taught, "If someone does this, we will do such and such".
As a white belt you try to pull the new technique off in real time, but without a willing training partner, it doesn't happen.
So you train hard for years and one day someone attacks you and and when he did "this" you did "such and such" and it worked.

True. But if you do it over and over again against someone that isnt moving, how is that going to help you?

Mike

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by MJS
True. I regards to the grabbing, while there is still going to be some moving, his arms are, unless he removes them, committed to that attack, therefore giving you an easier target.

Of course, which sets you up to do your thing.

In the Filipino arts, they have limb destruction. The goal is to deaden the arm to slow it down, and to allow you more time to attack. For example, hitting the bicep on the inner part of the arm. You have from the elbow to the armpit, giving you a pretty good size area to hit. With Dillmans theory, IMO, is to get a KO. You need to hit mult. spots in succession to set up the KO.

If the KO is your aim, then yes you do need to strike multiple points, but truthfully, in a self defense situation your aim should be to control the situation and get away with minimal harm to yourself. You can do this by hitting the points that will numb or deaden the arm or whatever.
That's my biggest beef with Mr. Dillman's demos, they always go for the KO. Why not just wobble the guy, then you can choose to hit him again or run away.

True. But if you do it over and over again against someone that isnt moving, how is that going to help you?

Exactly, that's why you need to practise on someone that wants to get in on you. Some one that is trying to take your head off, in the dojo, so that when it happens on the street, you are well prepared to deal with it effectively. Please don't ever think that I would condone what I call static training. If you aren't moving against me, then I'm not learning anything effective.



--Dave

:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by thesensei
Well, I can't seem to find a thread devoted to this subject. I'm interested in hearing opinions from everyone on this. I've recently begun working out with a black belt in tang soo do. He's very good, generates very good power and speed. We come from very different martial arts background, so it produces very good discussion and discovery for both of us. Our recent discussions have been around this idea.

He holds a "one punch, one kill" philosophy - stated in those words. My studies have focused more on striking to get a certain body reaction which sets up for the next strike... I can see certain merits for the idea of "one punch, one kill," but I wonder....

What do you all think about it??

Salute,
Jeremiah

Surprisingly, and contrary to what most people may think, it is not that hard to train for Killing punch. And you wouldn't sacrifice your fists in the process, as some ill-informed armchair martial stylists may mouth about. Today we have the medical knowledge to train and condition the fists without risking traumatic damage. With this been the internet, any person with any brain cell alive would not be so careless as to post openly about how to train for such deadly skills.

Needless to say, some targets may be quite vulnerable to "one punch one kill" while others may need more than one punch. Nevertheless, a solid blow the head can certainly kill with ease. A lot of people were killed with a lot less force in freak attack incidents and even simple, minor accidental falls.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Surprisingly, and contrary to what most people may think, it is not that hard to train for Killing punch. And you wouldn't sacrifice your fists in the process, as some ill-informed armchair martial stylists may mouth about. Today we have the medical knowledge to train and condition the fists without risking traumatic damage. With this been the internet, any person with any brain cell alive would not be so careless as to post openly about how to train for such deadly skills.

Needless to say, some targets may be quite vulnerable to "one punch one kill" while others may need more than one punch. Nevertheless, a solid blow the head can certainly kill with ease. A lot of people were killed with a lot less force in freak attack incidents and even simple, minor accidental falls.

I don't buy it. You never know what could happend. Someone could die when you punch them, or not. It doesn't matter how much "you trained your fists," You could punch someone and they coud die, or they could look at you and laugh also, despite your training. And of course some targets are more vulnerable then others. To think that you have the secret one punch killing technique in your art (I am not saying you think this Kenneth 'per say,' I am speaking more generally here) is a false sense of security, in my opinion.

Now there may be methods of training that will make your strike more effective; more likely to "kill." However, why not explain it online? How is it irresponsible? If some psycho is going to go out and kill, they are going to do so with gun, knife, or whatever, regardless of what we say here on MartialTalk. Also, you can detail every method of training online that you want; but to make it effective, you still have to TRAIN the method, which is not easily done on ones own. So, when someone says "I can't tell you the secret training method online because it is too deadly" I tend to see this as a cop-out.

So...if you have a method that will enhance your striking skill/power that you would like to share, then please do so. If not, then please refrain from alluding that you have some "secret training method" that you can't tell us about. We inferior martial artists without the secrets have fragile ego's, and we can't take that sort of thing!

Sorry to be a D**k,

PAUL

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Surprisingly, and contrary to what most people may think, it is not that hard to train for Killing punch. And you wouldn't sacrifice your fists in the process, as some ill-informed armchair martial stylists may mouth about. Today we have the medical knowledge to train and condition the fists without risking traumatic damage. With this been the internet, any person with any brain cell alive would not be so careless as to post openly about how to train for such deadly skills.

Gotta disagree with this one. First, hitting the head can injure your hand. Second, not everybody out there conditions their hands by doing iron palm training.

Mike

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by PAUL
I don't buy it. You never know what could happend. Someone could die when you punch them, or not. It doesn't matter how much "you trained your fists," You could punch someone and they coud die, or they could look at you and laugh also, despite your training. And of course some targets are more vulnerable then others. To think that you have the secret one punch killing technique in your art (I am not saying you think this Kenneth 'per say,' I am speaking more generally here) is a false sense of security, in my opinion.

Now there may be methods of training that will make your strike more effective; more likely to "kill." However, why not explain it online? How is it irresponsible? If some psycho is going to go out and kill, they are going to do so with gun, knife, or whatever, regardless of what we say here on MartialTalk. Also, you can detail every method of training online that you want; but to make it effective, you still have to TRAIN the method, which is not easily done on ones own. So, when someone says "I can't tell you the secret training method online because it is too deadly" I tend to see this as a cop-out.

So...if you have a method that will enhance your striking skill/power that you would like to share, then please do so. If not, then please refrain from alluding that you have some "secret training method" that you can't tell us about. We inferior martial artists without the secrets have fragile ego's, and we can't take that sort of thing!

Sorry to be a D**k,

PAUL

A. There are methods to condition your hands. The result is hardened fists with crushing power. The methods are only "secretive" too those who are not aware of them.

B. I am sorry that my post has been perceived as a cop-out. Nonetheless, my position stands. I am not here to puff my ego, nor to promote anything. I just feel that there is some valuable factual information worth sharing. There is also the need to balance the responsiblity that comes with the territory. Whatever some psycho may want to do, at least it wouldn't be on my conscience as I have not contibuted to the crime. I understand the unpleasant feeling generated by holding back. For that I am sorry.

If it would make you feel better, then the Admin may feel free to delete my previous post .

C. What I have stated in my previous post, is factually correct. You can train your fists to harden them and to increase punching power, so as to deliver bone crushing blows. All without causing trauma to your bones, tendons or joints.

If people disagree, that is fine with me. Couldn't care less. (I don't mean this to be a bad *** attitude. It is just that I simply don't have the time to care.)

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by MJS
Gotta disagree with this one. First, hitting the head can injure your hand. Second, not everybody out there conditions their hands by doing iron palm training.

Mike

That is why you NEED to condition your hands properly so as to harden them gradually. I can assure you that with proper training, your fists would have no problem cracking a head (not that you would want to).

 

[Cruentus]

If it would make you feel better, then the Admin may feel free to delete my previous post .

No need for that; I am not an Admin 1st of all, and second of all I don't think you were inappropriate or anything like that. I just disagreed w/ you, thats all.

I disagree with the notion that any type of "killing 1st strike" can be relied on, no matter how well you train your hands, body, and skills. I think that this notion is a false sense of power. The nature of the human body is too volitle; it is stronger and more resilient then we think at times, and weaker and more fragile then we think at other times to predict what will occur when you hit a person. Plus, situations and circumstances are too volitle; you don't know what the other guy is going to do, what the circumstance will be, etc., etc.

I also disagree with the notion of stating you know a specialized training method which you attest to being effective w/o being able to give any information regarding that method. I can understand why you might not want to give training details on the net, but I don't have to agree.

Thank you,

PAUL

 

[arnisador]

I split the discussion on War Atrocities off to a thread in The Study:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10541

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Journal of Asian Martial Arts," just published something on Iron Palm training, too.

But I tend to agree that any single training like this is going to have its limits.

Or to quote somebody I know, "I'll start teaching students to punch through anything when people start running around wearing bamboo armor again."

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by PAUL

I disagree with the notion that any type of "killing 1st strike" can be relied on, no matter how well you train your hands, body, and skills. I think that this notion is a false sense of power. The nature of the human body is too volitle; it is stronger and more resilient then we think at times, and weaker and more fragile then we think at other times to predict what will occur when you hit a person. Plus, situations and circumstances are too volitle; you don't know what the other guy is going to do, what the circumstance will be, etc., etc.

I agree! To think that you're gonna be able to drop someone with one shot is something that IMO, a chance that I dont want to take! Yeah, you might get lucky and hit the guy right on the button, but again, the key word here is "LUCK"

I also disagree with the notion of stating you know a specialized training method which you attest to being effective w/o being able to give any information regarding that method. I can understand why you might not want to give training details on the net, but I don't have to agree.

As for the training, I dont think that there is any ancient secret either. Also, not everybody is going to do that, and IMO, I dont think that it is necessary for everybody to do in order to develop that tough fist. If I'm close enough to reach someone, I'd rather use an elbow rather than my fist. Why risk hurting my hand, when I can hit the guy with something harder?

Mike

 

[kenpo2dabone]

I have had some exposure to Iron Palm. My understanding of it is that you use particular oils or ointments and rub them into your hands. Then you strike a burlap bag of raw beans in a specific order such that you strike using all portions of each hand. After a certain amount of time doing this on regular basis you then use a different type of material to strike that is tougher than the bag of beans and you keep graduating to harder and harder materials to strike. Over the coarse of several hours, days weeks months or even years the skin on your hand is suppose to harden and become very tough. Similar to a giant callus (sorry if i did not spell that correctly). I tried it for a little while and liked it but I felt that I got the same type of feeling from just doing lots of heavy bag work on canvas and leather bags. Therefore, I did not see the benefits to adding another 20 minutes a day to my training regiment. Nor did I feel that it would have enhanced my ability to strike with deadly force. Again I have to point out that my expposure to it was fairly short lived. Being a Kenpo practitioner, I feel that increasing speed and strength and more inportantly striving to strike with correct anatomical alighnment of ones self is really the only way to increase power. Simply toughening the hands will not add power to your stike. However, it will decrease the amount of damage your hand may potentialy sustain as a result of the strike. This may result in having more confidence in striking the harder parts of the human anatomy thus allowing one to strike with their full power not having to worrry about injuring themselves in the process.

On a side note,

MJS,


You mentioned that if you could reach someone you would rather hit them with your elbow rather than your hand. Why risk hurting your hand when you can hit them with something harder.

I would just like to say that just because someone is within your reach does not mean that you they are with in the reach of your elbow. Therefore, the elbow is not alwaysan option. I noticed that Kenpo is one of the arts that you practice so you should be able to understand the four rings principle. The four rings being the four ranges of each of your weapons. When a person is inrange of your foot they are not necessarily in range of your hand. when they are in range of your hand they are not necessarily in range of your knee. When they are inrange of your knee they are not necessarily in range of your elbow. This is just something i thought I would point out.

Salute,

Mike Miller UKF

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone

On a side note,

MJS,


You mentioned that if you could reach someone you would rather hit them with your elbow rather than your hand. Why risk hurting your hand when you can hit them with something harder.

I would just like to say that just because someone is within your reach does not mean that you they are with in the reach of your elbow. Therefore, the elbow is not alwaysan option. I noticed that Kenpo is one of the arts that you practice so you should be able to understand the four rings principle. The four rings being the four ranges of each of your weapons. When a person is inrange of your foot they are not necessarily in range of your hand. when they are in range of your hand they are not necessarily in range of your knee. When they are inrange of your knee they are not necessarily in range of your elbow. This is just something i thought I would point out.

Very true. I like to kick. I feel confident kicking, so yes, if thats an option, I'll do it. I dont however, want to stand there and box with someone. I feel more comfortable closing the distance, and using close range tools or take the person to the ground.

Mike