On Self "Training" In Martial Arts

[skribs]

Knocking off experience here, you can get input from other people via sparring. Not knocking off experience, nothing says you cant contact people and send them sparring videos etc.

If the people you are sparring are not competent, then your sparring with them is just a formality. You're not going to get meaningful input from someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

Sending people videos of yourself sparring is less efficient than just going to class for several reasons:

1. Lack of training partners. Part of sparring is getting to use your techniques against different people. Big guys, small guys, strong guys, fast guys. That guy who has wicked good bobbing and weaving skills, the guy who's really aggressive, the guy who just wants to clinch. If you're only sparring against one person you get good at sparring that person. If you spar several people, you get good at adapting your style.
2. Time to receive feedback. In class, you can get immediate feedback from your instructor. Otherwise you need someone to watch your video, and it takes extra time and slows your progress.
3. Delay between feedback and progress. In addition to the point before, once you get that feedback, you then have to apply it. A lot of things aren't a simple "you need to do X" and then the person does X. It takes time for the person to figure out exactly what you mean. Often times you have to have the technique done to you, or you need to be guided through the technique to understand exactly what it is. For example, when teaching the proper form of the back kick, often I will hold the shoulders of the student so they don't over-rotate. Once they get the feel for that level of rotation, then they get it. This isn't something I could do in a sparring video.
4. It suffers all of the problems you associate with a class. You're relying on someone else to provide feedback and instruction. What if their feedback is of poor quality? Now you're going to adjust your training based on that feedback.

What you are suggesting is something that is less efficient than just going to class, and yet suffers all of the pitfalls you associate with going to class.

The one exception is the same as before - if you are already training and want a second opinion. If you're already training, self-study can reinforce that training. Sending a video to someone else can give you some different ideas. But as your only method of learning it's a poor method.

 

[frank raud]

If you just want to learn kata you can do that without face to face instruction,

Why would you want to learn kata by itself, without application? And again, without someone more knowledgeable than you in that particular kata, how do you know it is being performed correctly, and that your not essentially dancing to a version of Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting in your head? Personally I find kata difficult even with an instructor. To my understanding, kata is the formal way of demonstrating certain techniques. It may not be the way the technique is done in real life or a contest setting, but it is to be performed in a certain way for the kata to be correct. I fluffed my way through a couple of TKD belts, but I know that in doing kata in judo, the technique must be done just so, or it is not correct. I had a constant problem in performing uke otoshi from the nage no kata, as my leg would not be in the proper position when I finished the throw. We (my sensies and I) kept working to correct it before I was allowed to test for my next belt.

 

[jobo]

Knocking off experience here, you can get input from other people via sparring. Not knocking off experience, nothing says you cant contact people and send them sparring videos etc.

And nothing says you would be able to handle phil, from accountings wrath if you split said drink with formal training. He could for all intents and purposes fold you like a chair.


There is a scale in this, i am not proposing you go to the extreme end of start from scratch, as the internet exists and most people have access to it. So they can get videos, text, pictures what have you from that on how to do various things, they could do what i stated above relay with a instructor or somone else via the internet with sparring videos etc ontop of that.



We can agree on several things though? If you just want to learn kata you can do that without face to face instruction, if you have no intrest in fighting somone you can do that without sparring and without face to face instruction and if you want to fight somone you need at least a sparring partner and some form of information to go off.

it may be clearer if you gave us some clue about why training is so impossible for you

when you first game here you were just about to start classes, you only had to pick which, a year or so later, thats not possible, are you tided to the house for some reason, is someone or quite a few people out to get you, that would explain why you are scared to leave the house and urgently need self defence skills

or if you dont want to post any actual info, just a simple I CANT ATTEND CLASSES will do and then people would try and help you as best they could

this current im doing it at home because its better is just nonsense, its not better but maybe you can work around some of the issues if your on tag or caring for a sick relative or some such

 

[drop bear]

I think the chances of a self taught egotist who knows better than all instructors including those on videos and books etc. who can eloquently debunk all knowledge of martial arts ...well no he can't actually..... in favour of his own 'brand' is going to fair poorly against anyone who can fight trained or untrained. The sheer weight of ignorance will hold him down.

Then he will know one way or the other.

If he spent 6 months self training and then did a jits and lost he would be ahead of instructors who have spent 20 years teaching but have never tested themselves.

 

[drop bear]

You would have a much better time if you were only intrested in "self defence", as then the bulk of people in that arena wouldnt be formally trained.

The issue with self defense instruction is that the depth of experience of the instructor is quite often about the same as everyone else.

And that they are probably just making stuff up as they go.

A martial art with some sort of quality control is a different beast.

I think the issue is you are comparing your self training to the lowest bar of regular martial arts instruction. Which is a cop out.

Yes you are on par with instruction. But you could if you wanted to get a better result for your time.

Martial arts isn't really a case that if you are as good as all the other chumps out there training then it is ok. This is personal development and you want the best for yourself that you can get because you are important.

So say for example you self train and become better than this guy.

The question is who cares?

 

[drop bear]

Again, the problem with self training for self defense, is the lack of input from other, more experienced people.

That is almost the issue with instructional self defense training as well.

 

[Tez3]

Then he will know one way or the other.

If he spent 6 months self training and then did a jits and lost he would be ahead of instructors who have spent 20 years teaching but have never tested themselves.

I don't actually know any BJJ instructors who haven't competed, many still do. Perhaps BJJ could adopt the Judo practice of having to compete as well as grade to gain a belt, it would save arguments anyway.

 

[drop bear]

I don't actually know any BJJ instructors who haven't competed, many still do. Perhaps BJJ could adopt the Judo practice of having to compete as well as grade to gain a belt, it would save arguments anyway.

I chose BJJ so he wouldn't get crippled if say his 6 months of self training doesn't work out.

I am not comparing him to someone who had 20 years of BJJ.

 

[skribs]

it may be clearer if you gave us some clue about why training is so impossible for you

when you first game here you were just about to start classes, you only had to pick which, a year or so later, thats not possible, are you tided to the house for some reason, is someone or quite a few people out to get you, that would explain why you are scared to leave the house and urgently need self defence skills

or if you dont want to post any actual info, just a simple I CANT ATTEND CLASSES will do and then people would try and help you as best they could

this current im doing it at home because its better is just nonsense, its not better but maybe you can work around some of the issues if your on tag or caring for a sick relative or some such

Based on his posts, it seems to be his arrogance masked as concern of quality control more than anything else. He tries to be an authority on subjects, and argues to the death whenever anyone with any experience tells him he's wrong. His trying to argue the vocabulary of what is and isn't a pattern in the TKD thread was a perfect example.

I don't actually know any BJJ instructors who haven't competed, many still do. Perhaps BJJ could adopt the Judo practice of having to compete as well as grade to gain a belt, it would save arguments anyway.

As long as there are people who compete at the gym, I don't see the issue. Say you and I are both BJJ instructors at the same school. You compete, I don't. When you and I roll together, you can tell me what about my technique would or wouldn't work in competition based on your experience. When you see me teaching, you can correct me based on what you know from competition. As long as I don't have an ego about it, I can defer to your experience.

The problem is if none of the instructors compete. Then we wouldn't have that check in place.

 

[Tez3]

I am not comparing him to someone who had 20 years of BJJ.

Well I wasn't either.

As long as there are people who compete at the gym, I don't see the issue.

To be honest I don't either, DB does obviously. We don't have that many BJJ instructors here, it's still a growing style here ( Judo is the big ground style here) and BJJ ranking takes longer than most other styles. More instructors are coming up though which to my mind is great. We had a lot of Brazilians come across to teach, but with the current political climate we won't have any more coming and those we do have will leave so we need home grown ones.

 

[oftheherd1]

I didn't read all of this; I couldn't. But @Rat you can teach yourself and be oh so good. I'm not sure at what other than self hypnosis. You made a statement on kata having no value. That alone shows how little you have learned from your self study. Do you not see techniques in kata in those MA that use kata? Do you see any multiple attacker defense in the kata of arts that use them? If you study an art that has any, or mostly grappling, you will be very lucky to learn any good grappling techniques; even in a formal class with good instructors you will often need help from others to get it right. Even the simplest looking technique can be more complicated than you can imagine.

I applaud your desire to learn a MA. Especially if you have focused in on learning an art that isn't taught close to you. I would recommend you take what local art that is closest to you and to the art you prefer. Try to pick a school that seems to teach well. It will stand you in good stead when you get to study the art you prefer.

But don't delude yourself that you can learn even partially as well by self teaching as you can in a good school with a good instructor and good students.

 

[Headhunter]

Knocking off experience here, you can get input from other people via sparring. Not knocking off experience, nothing says you cant contact people and send them sparring videos etc.

And nothing says you would be able to handle phil, from accountings wrath if you split said drink with formal training. He could for all intents and purposes fold you like a chair.


There is a scale in this, i am not proposing you go to the extreme end of start from scratch, as the internet exists and most people have access to it. So they can get videos, text, pictures what have you from that on how to do various things, they could do what i stated above relay with a instructor or somone else via the internet with sparring videos etc ontop of that.



We can agree on several things though? If you just want to learn kata you can do that without face to face instruction, if you have no intrest in fighting somone you can do that without sparring and without face to face instruction and if you want to fight somone you need at least a sparring partner and some form of information to go off.

If you want to get good at martial arts then you need an instructor that's it end of story. I can go teach myself a kata online in a couple of hours....but I'll be awful and terrible at that kata and be making a million mistakes.

I can go teach myself a bunch of judo throws but I wouldn't have a single chance of actually being able to use them for real.

Basically self training is the equivalent of aerobic boxing. Yes you'll be throwing punches yes you'll get some fitness but you still don't know how to punch properly or how to do a correct stance or a correct guard.

You can justify your lack of training anyway you wish. But no one will agree with it because the majority here have actually put in the real training hours and knows how hard it is to even get to a competent level with an instructor.

So we know that it's basically impossible to get competent without one.

Again it's your choice you'll do what you want to do but simoly if you want to get good. Get a teacher if you're happy throwing your hands around copying YouTube then that's great good luck with it

 

[Headhunter]

I will answer your question. ,. With a question,. If you are creating your own system,. What would be your goals.

Why don't you just answer with a real answer

 

[Headhunter]

Clarification, i do belive you need at minimum a sparring partner to self study. anything else seems optional/a luxury. Unless you just want to do forms to keep active then you dont need one or dont want it for actually fighting anyone. You do just need a human being to be there to act as resistance and to try things on.

No you need more than a sparring partner. If I'm a guy who knows no martial arts and I get my buddy who also knows nothing to come to my house and we punch each other in the face for a while...how does that teach us anything....apart from the symptoms of concussion. Yes you can get tough and how to take a punch. But there's way way more to martial arts than being tough and taking a punch

 

[drop bear]

As long as there are people who compete at the gym, I don't see the issue. Say you and I are both BJJ instructors at the same school. You compete, I don't. When you and I roll together, you can tell me what about my technique would or wouldn't work in competition based on your experience. When you see me teaching, you can correct me based on what you know from competition. As long as I don't have an ego about it, I can defer to your experience.

The problem is if none of the instructors compete. Then we wouldn't have that check in place.

The problem is with bjj is that a rank is a rank everywhere and so you wouldn't be able to take your mates word for it that you are a black belt.(mostly)

So you pretty much have to compete to grade.

 

[drop bear]

No you need more than a sparring partner. If I'm a guy who knows no martial arts and I get my buddy who also knows nothing to come to my house and we punch each other in the face for a while...how does that teach us anything....apart from the symptoms of concussion. Yes you can get tough and how to take a punch. But there's way way more to martial arts than being tough and taking a punch

So long as they are having fun. I don't see what the issue is.

You have to understand that it is the individual not the system.

Some people are training for their own goals.

If you can't make instructorless training work then you don't understand it.

And if it works on the street then it is all the evidence you need.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I will answer your question. ,. With a question,. If you are creating your own system,. What would be your goals.

Most likely it would be an efficient way to fight, and transmit that knowledge. Since you stated that you did create your own kung fu, what were your goals in doing so, how did you achieve them, and how do you know they were achieved?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It would take a book worth of writing to explain many of the details in depth. I respect all martial art systems .
But the best system is what is best for you. So I will speak on my journey. From a young age I was an avid watcher of Kung Fu theatre in the early 80's I became obsessed with northern shaloin mantis. I determined at a young age to be praying Kung master, my imagination went wild. I didn't care people were flying with ropes. Fast forward to age 14 ,I wanted to find a northern mantis school, but there were none in my area, so I tried some karate,jkd, several other schools but it was not wanted. As I became an adult I wised up and lost interest in my original goal. But I was still determined that real Kung Fu existed. I got side tracked because relationships and my second love for music. Fast forward around age 27 ,I decided that if I could not find the school of my dreams, I would create my vision of the best Kung Fu system,. I was finally in control.
To create a system ,you first have to create the basics just like any basics in any school.
1. Stance -. Goal achieved
2.punch types ,fist types- goal achieved
3.proper foot work 70% goal achieved
4. Power engine/power generator 70% achieved
The list goes on and on.

How do you determine though that those are achieved?

How do you know that the stances you've created are related to kung fu (if that's your goal), or effective (if that's your goal)? Same with punch/fist types/foot work. And how do you know your generation of power is an effective generation of power?

To speak to that last one, since that seems the simplest to test, are you comparing the power generation from your style, with the power generation from other styles? Are you looking at kung fu movies/books/videos and seeing if it's philosophically the same (same way of using the feet and developing power through them, for instance)? Are you just developing it in a bubble/isolated from other martial arts/theory, and determining that once you're happy with it, then it's done?

 

[Flying Crane]

I am familiar with kung Fu stances, so chose one that is most suitable for the type of strikes I want to use.
How to know the fist types or strikes soley depend on whether you want to just cause pain of real temporary short term or long term damage.
At first I was isolating my self from to much influence, but when you hit a mental wall , I do research other styles that are similar to my goals, some times just finding one little pattern or a lil tip from a YouTube vid, or book can get you through.
Your power effectiveness is determined by the striking range, short power or more common long range.
The short power is hard to assess because if some one really used successfully on an opponent they just drop to the floor, you can see it in some forms. Or trying breaks

Ok, genuine honest advice here: you need to find a real teacher. Genuine Kung fu does exist. Some of us here practice it in one form or another. Get a teacher. You can do it too, if you find a teacher.

What you are going on about is nonsense, quite frankly.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I am familiar with kung Fu stances, so chose one that is most suitable for the type of strikes I want to use.
How to know the fist types or strikes soley depend on whether you want to just cause pain of real temporary short term or long term damage.
At first I was isolating my self from to much influence, but when you hit a mental wall , I do research other styles that are similar to my goals, some times just finding one little pattern or a lil tip from a YouTube vid, or book can get you through.
Your power effectiveness is determined by the striking range, short power or more common long range.
The short power is hard to assess because if some one really used successfully on an opponent they just drop to the floor, you can see it in some forms. Or trying breaks

You're still avoiding actually answering my questions, but I can't tell if that's an issue from this format (it's tougher to convey meaning through text), or an intentional avoiding by you.