Oh Crap I'm on my back!!!

[Kenpo Yahoo]

The title pretty much says it all, but I'll explain a little further for those who might be a little confused. What would you do if you were in some situation and suddenly found yourself on your back (whether you stumbled or got pushed, that's not the point). I hear all the time that kenpo has a solution for everything even groundfighting.

Now before anyone gets suspicious about my intentions let me explain. I love kenpo, but I've adopted some ideas and principles from outside kenpo to cover myself in this situation. I am however curious what you more experienced guys and gals would do in this situation. If you have a favorite standing technique that you've modified for the ground (and you don't mind sharing), throw us a bone. We'll try and narrow this by nixing the use of weapons at this point.

So what's your plan?

 

[Wertle]

Sometimes we have entire classes on groundfighting. It usually involves how to deal with the attack and then get back on your feet as quick as possible, especially in a scenario with multiple attackers ^_^ As far as the techniques we learn, it's quite varied: strikes and kicks as well as throwing and counterjoints, depending on the situation and the attack.

As for official, formal ground techniques, they are taught through the ranks, but in said classes that focus on groundfighting, we mostly learn how to apply what we know in that particular scenario.

One of the most useful I things I found in these classes is getting back on your feet! It's not something you really think about, and I never really considered it at first, but optimizing quick and effective ways to get up is a good thing to learn, hehe ^_^

 

[Hollywood1340]

Kiddies,
If I may, this is one area where I believe it is fair to say AKK is lacking. Ground fighting, is something you may not need, but something you NEED to know. On your back is a posititon of power in the eyes of many. if you're in a postition to use it as such. A good shot of BJJ every week should solve said problem. If not, any AKK grappling techs out there? I know there is one demponstrated on Mr. Mill site, ?Rolling Thunder?
Cheers

 

[Goldendragon7]

contact manipulation is good for everyone.

:asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

The title pretty much says it all, but I'll explain a little further for those who might be a little confused. What would you do if you were in some situation and suddenly found yourself on your back (whether you stumbled or got pushed, that's not the point). I hear all the time that kenpo has a solution for everything even groundfighting.

Now before anyone gets suspicious about my intentions let me explain. I love kenpo, but I've adopted some ideas and principles from outside kenpo to cover myself in this situation. I am however curious what you more experienced guys and gals would do in this situation. If you have a favorite standing technique that you've modified for the ground (and you don't mind sharing), throw us a bone. We'll try and narrow this by nixing the use of weapons at this point.

So what's your plan?

Well,

I guess it would depend on what range you were fighting from? I was taught (way back when) the old circle from the ground to kick their shin until you can make your way back up. I also learned bowing to budda (knee attack while on knees), prayer of death (kick attack while on knees) and we had some techniques called blue belt ground defense where the attacker was on top of you. As I recall the "ground defense techiques" weren't the greatest and could easily be replaced by some of the more progressive BJJ movements that exist today, but for the time they did teach some basic skills that operated from the point of logic for that time. These were all taught to me while I was a member of the NCKKA in the mid-late 80's, early 90's.

But I would think like anything else you're gonna figure it out though logic and through doing it. If you need some instruction I saw Mr. Skip Hancock with Kenpo 2000 has a video on ground techs and generally he is very logical (to say the least) in his approach to the system.

jb:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Some very good stuff!!

:asian:

 

[Robbo]

The ground is definitely NOT your friend. Hit fast, hard, dirty, and then get back on your feet as quickly as possible.

Gee, and if it were that easy everybody would do it.

All I'm saying is keep it short and sweet, use the distance advantage that your feet posses and then get back on your feet and get the hell outta there (if you can).

Rob

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Kiddies,
If I may, this is one area where I believe it is fair to say AKK is lacking. Ground fighting, is something you may not need, but something you NEED to know. On your back is a posititon of power in the eyes of many. if you're in a postition to use it as such. A good shot of BJJ every week should solve said problem. If not, any AKK grappling techs out there? I know there is one demonstrated on Mr. Mill site, ?Rolling Thunder?
Cheers

Actually the AKKI has a couple of ground techniques designed specifically for a defense from the mount position. However these techniques are Mills/AKKI generated material, not EPAK. I've also explored some BJJ principles, but again that's not a part of EPAK. I don't know of any specific approach, at least by American Kenpo, to address the ground situation.

I always hear that kenpo has everything, but I see a big gap in it's attention to groundfighting (thanks hollywood, it's comforting to know I'm not the only one who feels this way). Now admittedly there is a lot I don't know about kenpo, so I'm curious as to how everyone else approaches the idea of groundfighting or being stuck on your back. Anymore thoughts???

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
However these techniques are Mills/AKKI generated material, not EPAK.

I know Paul Mills very well, and it appears that you are saying he is "NOT" EPAK......... I can assure you that ALL his material is EPAK conceptually and principally based.

I've also explored some BJJ principles, but again that's not a part of EPAK.

Human movement is human movement...... lol...... you must look at the core material and principles to truly understand what it is that you talk about. There are many other systems that incorporate similar movements like EPAK but is an entirely different system with no connection. If BJJ has movements that conform (and there are several that can fall under EPAK guidelines) then by all means use them. If you discover a movement or idea that is NOT covered.... then borrow it!~ I can tell you from experience that we cover most if not all the bases but few see the comparisons and adjustments.

Remember the Ed Parker Quote........ "Knowledge is bound when one is compelled to tradition......... Yet, knowledge is endless when tradition is bound."

Don't "bind" yourself on what You know to be EPAK at this stage of your experience and learning. "You know what you know....... Not What others know."

I don't know of any specific approach, at least by American Kenpo, to address the ground situation. Now admittedly there is a lot I don't know about kenpo, so I'm curious as to how everyone else approaches the idea of ground fighting or being stuck on your back.

Exactly, you may not have been exposed to other areas of AK as of yet, but don't discount that fact that it may be there.

Oh yeah........ being stuck on your back is a difficult scenario for anyone to deal with...... try not to get there in the first place.

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Didn't we already do a thread on what we called Applied Kenpo? I have studied Jiu-Jitsu and I fell that the Kenpo techs work very well on the ground.

 

[Blindside]

Hmm,

Well, the "Rolling Thunder" technique that is shown on the AKKI website is essentially a BJJ "umpa" with a bunch of strikes thrown in. This is something that is learned on the first day of a typical BJJ players education.

Just as a point of clarification, when we are on our back, what is our opponent doing? Side Control, kata gatame, knee on stomach, mount, standing there kicking us, etc. Responses to this scenario vary with what your opponent is doing, no one technique is going to solve it.

Incidently, I went the BJJ route to get my ground game, I figured I'd learn from the guys who live there, rather than visit once in a great while.

Salute,

Lamont

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I know Paul Mills very well, and it appears that you are saying he is "NOT" EPAK......... I can assure you that ALL his material is EPAK conceptually and principally based.

I never said that the concepts and principles weren't based on EPAK (which in turn had principles taken from other systems and so on and so on). I merely stated that the techniques Rolling Thunder and several of the other ground techniques were AKKI generated material. The AKKI has had the help of one of the nations top ranking Olympic wrestlers while developing their ground material. So it's not 100% EPAK material. Besides, I haven't seen anyone else doing the AKKI ground techniques or any other ones for that matter. Do you guys know Swirling Destruction, Collapsing Thunder, Twisted Thunder? Probably not, unless your in the AKKI. I'm sure other associations are similiar. Since most of the kenpo people out there have some knowledge of EPAK I thought the discussion would be better off if this was taken into account.

I've always heard that kenpo was an all encompassing system (i.e. it had a solution for almost any situation). I was just curious how people would react if they suddenly found themselves on their backs. Would you try and modify a standing technique or would you revert to wrestling/BJJ mode?

Realize this, I do not speak for the AKKI or Mr. Mills in any form or fashion. I just try to call it like I see it. Sometimes things get a little hazy, but that's why I ask questions like the one posted.

Respectfully

 

[Hollywood1340]

In AKK if you find yourself on the ground you "Really F*cked up". IMHO a very arrogent view of the world. All encompasing, huh? Seems in this instructors eyes, (A third gen AKK third dan) the impossible is just that, huh? Impossible.

 

[Blindside]

Hi Hollywood,

Was that Chris who said that? (just guessing, he's the only third I know of in Missoula). If it was, it might surprise you that he does train against groundwork, just not that often. Also his knowledge of locks and lock counters is very impressive.

Anyway, I agree with him, if I find myself on the ground I really did screw up, but knowing myself, that's not all that hard to imagine. I don't think it is arrogance, it is the view of most standup fighters, that is their strength, and they should do everything they can do to stay there.

Lamont

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

In AKK if you find yourself on the ground you "Really F*cked up". IMHO a very arrogent view of the world. All encompasing, huh?

I agree, that is a very arrogant view. I think if you have found yourself in a situation where you have to fight, then you "Really F-'ed up." Everything after that is just damage control. For those who believe that it would be impossible to end up on the ground, here are two stories (non-fiction of course).

1) I've had the opportunity to talk to a couple of kenpo guys who bounce at a pretty rough honkey tonk. One of the guys was involved in a scuffle and lost his balance, he ended up on the ground and on his back. The attacker fell, with him, into the mount position, but before the attacker could take advantage the bouncer hooked his leg, bridged, and rolled the guy (BJJ--umpa). He regained his standing position and carried on.

2) Ed Parker Sr. is considered, by most, to have been the most knowledgeable and capable kenpoist ever. However, some time ago E.P. Sr. was doing a demonstration on a tv show with Frank Trejo. Mid-way through the technique Mr. Parker lost his balance and fell. Of course he quickly recovered, if memory serves me correctly, by rolling up to all fours executing a back thrust kick to Trejo's tail bone (ya--ooOOUUCCHH!!!) and regaining a standing position. If it wasn't impossible for Mr. Parker to end up on the ground, why would anyone else be so arrogant as to think that it would be impossible for them to end up on the ground?
Accidents, unfortunately, do happen.

 

[Blindside]

I agree, that is a very arrogant view. I think if you have found yourself in a situation where you have to fight, then you "Really F-'ed up."

Good point.

 

[Wertle]

For those who believe that it would be impossible to end up on the ground, here are two stories (non-fiction of course).

Not to mention more typical situations, though they may be rare, that *could* happen.

Afterall, if you're enjoying lounging at the beach and, for whatever reason, some crazy hyped up person attacks you, it's not exactly your fault that you're on the ground (unless you consider laying on the beach a fault ^_^)

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo



I was just curious how people would react if they suddenly found themselves on their backs. Would you try and modify a standing technique or would you revert to wrestling/BJJ mode?

First off, I have ZERO experience in this particular situation, and I'm only a beginner in kenpo. That said, though, I think there are all sorts of options for fighting from the ground.

If you're on your back and your opponent is standing, you can attack his legs. Mr. Mills has described using a combination ankle-hook and side kick to the knee to knock your opponent over. The attacker's legs and groin are extremely vulnerable. Additionally, crescent kicks can be used to deflect the attacker's arms.

If your attacker is in your guard, why not try Mace of Aggression from the ground? Smash the face, hook the arm, and launch an elbow. You could possibly even roll over while executing the elbow. Maybe hook a leg over their head and roll them over while executing an armbar.

If your attacker has mounted you, attack the groin, collapse the arms, buck them over your head... the list goes on.


I don't understand why everyone on the forum has such a sense of helplessness about being on the ground, when I think there are so many options available. Granted, given the option between standing and beginning flat-backed, I'd rather stand. But if I'm knocked down, I'm sure as hell NOT giving up -- I'm using my weapons and techniques as best I'm able.

Ah well -- feel free to burst my bubble, but I think there are TONS of ground applications for kenpo -- it just takes some creative thinking....

Tad Finnegan

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

All good systems teach the same thing. Balance, control, tech. Different arts call it different things. In Kenpo most (not all because kenpoists never agree) people call it 1. establish your base. 2. Control the opponents height, width and depth. 3. execute a "technique". All of the techniques are set up this way. Sometimes these things happen at the same time. Good groundfighting teaches the same thing. Even on the ground you have to gain your balance, gain control, and then go for your "technique." It has been my experience that systems that do not teach this concept are not really effectve. BJJ is very effective in some situations because it does follow this concept. If you understand this you can take this concept and apply it to many situations. It does not matter if you are standing, sitting or on the ground. This concept is generally the common thread among many good systems. The moves that are taught in the various arts are different examples of how to accomplish this.

 

[GouRonin]

Hey Sandor! I'm not sure if you're still around or still on vacation but do you remember that Kenpo seminar where they brought in that Aiki-Ju-Jitsu guy for a bit of flavour? I have never laughed so hard watching Kenpoists do the absolute worst breakfalls I have ever had the pleasure of seeing.

Yet they have techniques that cover it in the system. Ed Parker understood Judo and placed extremely usable parts of it in certain techniques but you think that people understand? Or if they do do you think they practice it? NooooOOOOOooo!

Now, what senior instructor has a whole spiel on why it's best to place people on their sides during certain techs and not on their backs because, for example, big cats like to fight with all their weapons facing up when on their back?