now i am pissed off

[Veynn]

Honestly, I don't give a rats as** about the subject matter.

I just want to train and be a better fighter. If this issue will only affect my training, then for me its not worth talking about.

I leave this history talk with the keyboard warriors.

 

[moromoro]

I just want to train and be a better fighter. If this issue will only affect my training then its not worth it.

I leave this history talk with the keyboard warriors.

yeah thats right....

SHUT UP AND TRAIN!!!!!!!!!:soapbox:

 

[[email protected]]

I love that Soapbox icon!!

Steve L.

 

[haumana2000]

From an old mamgazine article by burton Richardson:


Stop Complaining, and Start Training!

Dude, the whole point is moot. I run a large Pacific Island and Filipino cultural organization. If you look at the Malayo Polynesian languages, there are many variations of what is in essence one root language. In Mark Wileys work the Filipino Martial arts, he does a cool classification method. He doesnt way that ancient arts were called Kali, he simply groups the arts by the staple techniques of each art i.e

Ancient, (Kali oriented methods)
Classical (Spanish inffluenced)
Modern (Karate, Kung Fu, or judo influenced with belts and such)

Most people what do "Kali" are those that are influenced by the Philippines next door neighbors, and the sotuerhn area, that has that "Majapahit" recipie so to speak. The Sri Vishaya was hindu. and the word exists there. Therm Kalis for the blade exists, so it could be taken from there. I think the Kali practitioner identifies that fact that he practices silat type techniques with his hands, and has a strong influence on the blade rather that force to force stick blocks. Is this wrong? no, I dont think so. Unfortunately you'll find that most filipinos (especially young ones) could really care less about their martial arts. Even in the PI, juijitsu is the big rage now. so why stand on the "soapbox" and try to reeducate the world, when most dont care? Beleive me, Ive had hundreds of young kids come through my program, who are more interested in buyin new kicks, trickin out the g-ride, and hookin up witha little bilat action, than learnining their heritage. Sad but true. Thats why, those few dedicated ones I get. I let them know the different philosophies, on the history, and I let them draw their own conclusion. you cannot forcefeed people your ideas on what you percieve is the truth. give em the info, and let em decide for themselves. I challenge anyone here to find a complete written history on the PI, it does not exist, so who's to say that kali doesnt? (I disagree, but you could argue it). teach those willing to listen in your backyard, have them teach there students, this is how a movement grows. putting everyone else down is like religion, its pointless to argue, and only makes you enemies.

 

[haumana2000]

damn I hate when I write in a hurry! sorry that it looks like I need hooked on phonics!

 

[dearnis.com]

damn I hate when I write in a hurry! sorry that it looks like I need hooked on phonics!

Yeah, the typo cop calls a major bust on you.

HOWEVER, the post is very good. And I agree, I like the conceptual scheme that Wiley put together. I dont agree 100%, but I like it.
Unfortunately I can see where this will lead; various people bashing Mark in one way or another.

 

[haumana2000]

oh well, I think there just needs to be a global revelation that uhh...

You can't please everyone all the time!

WE should focus on the preservation of these arts for the future , not on dissecting and disseminating every wrong thats perceived from past events.

For that, why dont we take all the advancements that black americans have made in the last decade, put that aside, and complain about slavery for another hundered friggin years! AS filipinos why dont we stop going to college, working toward positive political endeavors, and making a brighter future for our kids, to sit and whine about how the we cannot advance because the spanish are holding us down! Lets see some info on how we can preserve these traditions. Wait....positive input, nah that just wouldnt be this forum would it?

 

[thekuntawman]

again,

this discussion is not about somebody who wants to use the name KALI, it is the making up of information to prove that it is real.

-combination of kamay and lihok
-shortning of "kalis"
-80 dialects, but the ones who say it doesnt even speak one
-how do we know it doesnt exist, vs. how do we know it does (just ask some people who never been there)
-look at this filipino guy, and that filipino guy, they all use it!
-all i care about is the effectiveness, not the name of the style (how about the honesty of the teachers?)

this discussion reminds me of when students in south africa were reading in there history books, that the dutch got there first, before the africans. now when the africans gain control and want to change the history books, the white south africans say "hey, its just words in a book, who cares?"

you dont care about the history, because its not yours.

oh, and "you guys" is not for everyone here, just the people i am talking about in my postings (mostly ones who get offended when i say it).

 

[haumana2000]

From Kuntawman's website:

If you crave authentic Southeast Asian Martial Arts that are not watered down or training that is not compromised, then give us a call…

(1st art on the list... Filipino Kuntaw Karate!)

(Hmmm... Didn't know that Karate was a Tagalog word, sounds Karazy!)

(Authentic Southeast Asian Martial arts?? here's the list

Typhoon Karate is a combination of Chinese Kung Fu, 2 styles of Filipino Kuntaw (Gatdula and Boggs Lao), Southeast Asian-Style Kick-Boxing, Tae Kwon Do, Presas style Arnis, and Gatdula system Fighting Eskrima.


Typhoon Karate is the style developed by Punong Guro Mustafa Gatdula during the mid-1990s.

(Dayum thats ancient!)

Kuntaw is the family fighting system of our Head Instructor, Mustafa Maurice Gatdula. There is a great debate concerning the origin of Philippine Kuntaw, but most agree that Kuntaw originated in China, and arrived in the Southern Philippines through trade with Chinese sailors and emigrants. Kuntaw and its cousin art, Silat, are bare handed and blade-fighting arts practiced by the Moslems of that region
(Wheres your Proof? Is there a written record of this historical belief? You've made an effort to disprove what every other teacher believes accoring to what they were taught so what gives?) A little bending to try to authenticate your beliefs vs other instructors.

Gatdula-style Fighting Eskrima

The Gatdula system of Eskrima is called our “Fighting Eskrima”. We use the term “fighting Eskrima” to differentiate our system from the classical forms more popular today. While many styles of Eskrima employ several weapons throughout their curriculum, Gatdula’s Fighting Eskrima (GFE) specializes in only two weapons: the single stick and the single knife.

(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)

Point is, that the PI has no written history. People will always mold according to their personal beliefs and their own agenda. It is a name, nothing more. I even remember a post where you said you use the term Kali occasionally.

Come on braddahs, we need to put this one to bed.

 

[thekuntawman]

"typhoon kuntaw karate" is a style that i made for people who do not want to fight full contact. except, they still do, right before the black belt level. i add the word "karate" just like i add "kali" for ADVERTISING. since some people insist on KALI as an art, its the only way i can compete with the schools that do use it, and since most people know the word KARATE, its the only way i can compete with the karate people. i do not teach in back yards, i have a commercial location, so 15-20 students will not be enough. the difference between me and other commercial schools are, my youngest age is 13, i have no womans classes or tae bo, and all of my students fight.

and yes, i use the word "FIGHTING ESKRIMA", because there is a difference between most of the eskrima around, and the eskrima i do. and the difference? "fighting", not "drilling". there is a big damn difference, and the people who sign up quickly find out what they are.

so a new name for an old idea? yes, because what is considered old in my town, is actually new.

so its my turn to say

whats in a name? the important thing is, can i back up what i am teaching? yup, anytime.

 

[thekuntawman]

Originally posted by haumana2000


1.(Hmmm... Didn't know that Karate was a Tagalog word, sounds Karazy!)

2.(Dayum thats ancient!)


3.(Wheres your Proof? Is there a written record of this historical belief? You've made an effort to disprove what every other teacher believes accoring to what they were taught so what gives?) A little bending to try to authenticate your beliefs vs other instructors.


4.(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)

5.Point is, that the PI has no written history. People will always mold according to their personal beliefs and their own agenda. It is a name, nothing more. I even remember a post where you said you use the term Kali occasionally.

6.Come on braddahs, we need to put this one to bed.

1. "karate", like "judo" are common words for martial arts back home, especially a FMA teacher who wants to look "modern", even if there is no karate or judo in those systems. presas style arnis, for example was once known as "arjuken karate" (ARnis, JUdo KENdo). like everyone says, its just a name. but when the students come, i tell them the truth about what they will be learning.

2. "ancient"? the philippine martial arts is ancient. the difference, is with us and the arts of other countries, change is tradition for us. the art should change with every generation. my art is ancient, but its my own modern version of this ancient art. the difference between me making my own system, and many other people, is i have been doing my martial art for more than 20 years. i earned the right to do this as a teacher, not a "instant guro" with 5 years.

3. like you said, nobody has proof. i even use to believe what i was reading. but i saw with my own eyes, and heard with my own ears about the existence of kali in the philippines. i dont fight against the use of kali, only the false stories people tell about it. if you are talking about muslims who do kuntaw or silat, i am proof of that.

4. new names are not a nono for the philippine martial arts. people do it all the time. but at least i didnt say i have preserved a lost art of ____ eskrima (or kinomutai/panantukan/dumug)

5. i disagree. yes, the philippines has almost no written history. but when people change it, it is not what they actually believe that makes them do it, like you said, its personal agenda. many people dont want to let go of the word kali, they find any kind of excuse or "proof" about it. then that lets some filipinos back home call what they do "kali" and make a lot of money doing it. you know what? if i was poor, and saw the opportunity to take advantage off some uneducated foreigners, i would probably do it too.

6. no, as long as people are trying to change what americans think is really happening in the philippines (existence of false arts, corruption in government, starvation etc) the pilipino with a consious should not let it rest. this is how the philippine got colonized before, and why filipinos let shady government get rich while people are starving. let it go, if you dont care.

 

[haumana2000]

Kuntawman, Just to illustrate that there are those who embrace this term AS Filipinos, even if the term did not exist...

I wonder if Moromoro will be there? I doubt it.At the age of 66, my life has been devoted to the preservation of the system with the desire that all the elements of the great teachings from my grandfather, the late magnifico Supreme Grandmaster Conrado B. Tortal, will be kept sacred and that the teachings must be imparted with scholarly atmosphere. In the course of such preservation my teachings with many different environments taught me to conceptualize the system into a productive well structured methodology in order that the learning process can be easily understood without sacrificing the true chemistry of the cultural Philosophy - truly Filipino. My emphasis on the intellectual calisthenics was to make everybody understands that in order to learn and to achieve the true discipline is to understand the Philosophical values before understanding the techniques. To me this is the foundation of the true filipino discipline referred as the Filipino Martial Arts.
At this juncture I don't want to use the terminology Filipino Martial Arts because it seems that the more someone uses the word Filipino Martial Arts the value of discipline is reduce to a very discouraging stature. Where can you find a Filipino Martial Arts having a name Escrima in Spanish, Arnis claimed as a Mexican word and a truly Filipino otherwise known as Kali, so if we follow these three names, we follow how the Spaniards name themselves as Jose Mario Francisco De al Fuente or Maria Theresa Antonieta Ledesma in simple logic by using three names as we often see in most books or video tapes or names of the school, Arnis, Escrima, Kali is not Filipino but Spanish in substance. So if to follow the real Filipino culture in making names, it is only one name: Juan or Pedro or Jose or Macario etc. It would be rather more distinct to say, Filipino indigenous discipline, the art of Kali, a Filipino Fighting System. Since martial arts today is identified as Chinese, Japanese,Korean, Indonesian, Malaysian. Filipinos and other names that are existing in many versions, the original practices of discipline has been reduced to more of a fitness program, sports competition and ranking make me blackbelt mania or make me certified instructors after four seminars or how much to be a blackbelt syndrome.

In the old China, to study Kungfu regardless of style, one must be willing to travel and climb the highest mountain peak where the 70 year grandmaster lives surrounded by wooden trees. And for one to be accepted he must do all the ordeals before he can be accepted as a student or in Japan, one must follow the path of a warrior or in Korea one must do what the masters wants to do as test.
And in the Philippines one must have to accept the beating of the feet or arms before the techniques were taught or in Indonesia one must be a Muslim to learn the silats, or to fulfill the 40 days rituals before becoming a student of silat. Of course that is impossible to do these things at the present conditions. But what ever the changes, the Doctrine of Discipline must not be altered or remove from the daily practices. One of the Disciplines is the Discipline of Loyalty, loyalty is not only to the Master or persons in authority but loyalty to the tenets of that Doctrine of Discipline.

Pekiti-Tirsia is an Institution of Higher Studies in terms of the Filipino Cultural Arts - the Art of Kali, a Filipino Fighting System. It is an Institution where the higher studies in combative technology has been enhanced through hazardous personal contacts with the people from the hinterlands of the different islands in the Philippines with the purpose to authentic the originality of the systems interoperability and to check the relationship of the cultural practices from the ceremonial dances to ritualistic metaphysical power applied to the fighting advantage.

The task was so important because as the only remaining Pekiti-Tirsia in authority I have to fulfill the mission of my great grandfather that in order for me to expand my understanding on how the Pekiti-Tirsia can be compared to other system I must interface with the non- Pekiti-Tirsia system not to copy or pirate their techniques but to make comparative analysis what is the weak parts in the other system and to find out what is the strong points in other systems. As what they did in the past with all his brothers making long journeys to find out who were the best in certain places in the Islands and neighboring Islands. More than 12 years in the Philippines and in and out to countries in Asia, interfacing with Indonesian and Malaysian Art that is truly Asian arts provided me a wider perspectives that the foundation of the Pekiti-Tirsia footwork strategies and the open hand strategies found its plurality in the mountains of Sumatra where the word siko is found which is also siko in Ilonggo, which is an elbow, mata also mata to Ilongo, the eyes and the sipa or sikad, kicks also in Ilonggo my own dialect and to check the word Kali in Malaysia was mentioned as often in the sentence as the words were spoken where the word Kali is a prefix in the Filipino language.

So the mission of the Pekiti-Tirsia is to provide each student, instructors and master instructors a scholarly materials of what is truly Filipino with indigenous materials based on Philosophy, logic and reasons that in the course for the furtherance of continuing mastery, what is truly Filipino culture braced with hospitality, courtesy and discipline will leave as lasting legacy as were experienced by the Spaniards in 1521, Americans in 1900, Japanese in 1942. It was inexcusable defeat that made the Filipino Fighting Art, the art of indigenous virtue, the art that won the war.

Pekiti-Tirsia will continue to live with that victory and we will defend that victory at all cost to preserve the only legacy proud to be called the LEGENDARIES of the modern times in the living past.

This has been proven by the first Filipino Martial Arts tournament in Cebu in 1979. Against the veteran Doce Pares claimed undefeated since 1930 in many full contact challenges. Pekiti-Tirsia made the first victory by defeating the Champion of Doce Pares before the crowd of 5,000 people at the Cebu Coliseum on record.This was the first test how was an original indigenous technology of Pekiti-Tirsia defeating the Escrima, Judo, Aikido mixed under the banner of Doce Pares.

On August 2004, the Pekiti-Tirsia Global Organization and the Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls with a joint sponsorship of the Force Recon Marines will sponsor the Battle of Kali 2004 to be held in Metro Manila-Philippines in an Extreme Full Contact Tournament on a Surrender Policy with a simple rules: "If you cannot stand the heat, get out from the kitchen" This is an open tournament provided the system or style is existing and willing to accept the rules.

55 years old and up are invited to join no headgear policy, 3 minutes per round total of 6 rounds. Choice of all out policy (Mas todas). No definition of titles or ranks. Come to what you believe and go if you have no business.

Below 50 years old no headgear, no body armour, surrender policy, no judges, no referres. Only Sports Marshall will separate after one surrenders.

By virtue of the Filipino Fighting Arts the Philippines is the best location for this type of tournament because if the tradition is correct, dignity of the traditional art must be respected and that no reason for one to disrespect by disproving that the tradition is wrong. If one believes that it can break the tradition then he must enter into this tournament. Our Force Recon Marines from heavy weight to light is on training now at least 6 hours a day following the tradition until August 2004, they are prepared to disprove that tradition is wrong but will defend that the tradition is right. So our other ultimate mission is to find out where and who wants to break the indigenous tradition, that will destroy the legacy of what is truly Filipino Fighting Arts - the art of Kali. Then we will stand to defend at all cost and maintain the tradition of the victories made by our great fathers who where before us.

There will be various fighting competitions subject to the choices agreed by both parties, this will be held at the most prestigious sports center at a full view of many people including the TV/media channels.

 

[Cruentus]

At the age of 66, my life has been devoted to the preservation of the system with the desire that all the elements of the great teachings from my grandfather, the late magnifico Supreme Grandmaster Conrado B. Tortal

According to your profile, you are not 66 years old; so who wrote this prose? Where did it come from?

 

[haumana2000]

Damn im sorry! This is from Leo Gaje's website. I just pasted it to illustrate that there are thosein the PI who acutally use the term as a sense of pride.

 

[Banana Man]

haumana2000,

Which website did you get that quote from?

Thanks

 

[haumana2000]

the international pekiti tirsia website. forums. Wealh of info, and great art!

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by haumana2000
Damn im sorry! This is from Leo Gaje's website. I just pasted it to illustrate that there are thosein the PI who acutally use the term as a sense of pride.

Thats cool. I didn't think you were claiming it; just wondering where it came from. :asian:

 

[Sun_Helmet]

Kuntawman posted this original message everywhere after going on the HUNTED film's website and ***NOT READING THE WHOLE SITE *** which addressed the very issues he incorrectly stated as being "misrepresented".

The truth will set you free.

Everyone please read the rest of the story here:

huntedmovie.com
then click on the North East section where it will show the Production Notes.
Midway through the notes you will read this:

"Kali is the term that's used here in the west" says Kayanan. "In the Philippines it's usually by the tribe, or the family, which is where the Sayoc Kali (my note: term) comes in that Tom (Kier) refers to. It also goes by Arnis - Eskrima."

This was on the hunted movie site all along. No weird plot to change the world.
However, after only a PARTIAL reading of the HUNTED website's content, Kuntawman posted this angry accusation all over the internet.

I've been hopping around every online forum trying to correct this false statement. A simple email to me or post at sayoc.com's forum would also have cleared it up.

Let me add a little more:

We at Sayoc Kali worked on the HUNTED so that perhaps the film would shed a positive light to all our Filipino Fighting Arts' brothers and sisters. Regardless of what system you came from. Regardless if you called it Eskrima, Arnis or Kali. What mattered was the Filipino Fighting Arts had a moment in the celluloid sun. It took almost a year of very very hard work. It took more than I or Tom Kier, but lots of dedication and sacrifice from many of our students and of course Tuhon Sayoc.

Did you folks know that before we got on the film, the knife fighting was choreographed by Tang Soo do stylists? Not to bash TSD but what they came up with wasn't what the studio folks wanted. It took a lot of work to get our arts repped onscreen. It was a long uphill battle. Thanks to the director, producer and the actors... they recognized the real thing when they finally saw it. What you saw onscreen is five percent of the total work.

For those who have to use the term "Karate" to offer a Filipino based combative indigenous art to the public. This film was for you. After all, we can't use the word "kali" right? Well, maybe now we can. The word is closer to our native pre-hispanic influences anyway is it not? Because prior to the Oceanic Malays habitation of the islands, ***THERE WAS NO NAME FOR OUR MOTHER ART***. There is NO RECORD of an official name for the warrior arts of the ancients. It surely wasn't ARNIS or ESKRIMA. If we really want to find the true indigenous tribe's combat art, we will have to ask the Negritoes- the AETAS who have been there before the brown skins.

There is no record of Arnis or Eskrima terms in any text prior to the 1900's. That's way beyond the time of Legaspi's arrival. It is certainly way before the Majapahit battled the Sulu warriors and were repelled. The vaunted Majapahit who dared to tattoo the faces of Kubalai Khan's emissaries with insults when the Mongols threatened them.

KALI is closer to the pre hispanic language our ancestors spoke. KALI is a word that is derived from the Sanskrit. Yes, Sanskrit - a language that existed in some form in ALL of the Philippine islands prior to the West discovering the gold and maritime trade routes for a crown's exploitation. The linguistic roots which are deeper than the Spanish based Eskrima or Arnis. Sanskrit is the calligraphy from which our alibata is based.

Sanskrit is the language from which the word "Maharlika" originates. You guys know what that term means right? There is definite proof they were there when Legaspi arrived. And that term is Sanskrit in its root linguistic form.

Somewhere in the seventies or late sixties, the manongs here in the US embraced it. It stood for the survival arts of the ancients. It said to all, "This art is not from Spain, no matter what it is called today in the islands".

I'm proud that Guro Inosanto wrote this term in his books. It *is* the Mother Art.

Because the Mother art lives inside all the surviving Filipino's descendants.

For even if it wasn't called Kali in the islands, - those with fighting Malay blood here in the states can call it that now.

No one knows what the ancients called their fighting methods. Yet some of us don't want to call it what the Spaniards called it. It is our prerogative as warriors, as modern Maharlikas. There's no shame in the terms Arnis or Eskrima. But don't shame anyone who wishes otherwise. That's what Divide and conquer tactics were all about.

Call it what you want, because prior to the Spaniards... our ancestors did.

--Rafael Kayanan--
CO- Knife Consultant and Choreographer on the HUNTED
SAYOC KALI - The ART of the BLADE
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[Guro Harold]

Originally posted by haumana2000
the international pekiti tirsia website. forums. Wealh of info, and great art!

Hi haumana2000,

Could you please provide a link as a reference if possible. There are a ton of P-T sites out there and a lot of new ones recently.

Thanks,

Palusut

 

[haumana2000]

pekiti europe is the org that hosts the forum.