No ID - College Student Tazed - 3 Times

[MJS]

In the five years I worked as a security guard, not once did I have to use force against someone for not having an ID. Sure, some people were very angry. Some people verbally abused me. Some people even threatened me...but I stood my ground and they eventually left. That is all the officers had to do. If the student threatened them in any way or assaulted them, then have at it, but, from the video and the report that I read, that is not clear.

I remember dealing with an incident very similar to this. I stated the policy. Listened to the other person. Stood my ground. And I didn't say a thing. When the person got tired of ranting and raving, they left.

What would you do in your situation, if the person you were dealing with, did not comply to your verbal instructions? I don't frequent bars/clubs, but I'd imagine if the bouncers told someone who was not complying with the rules of the establishment, to leave, and the person refused, I'd imagine he'd be forcefully removed.

If an officer tells someone to turn around and put their hands behind their back and they refuse, is the ofc. supposed to keep repeating himself until the suspect complies? I wouldn't think so. They are now resisting and the officer would be well within their rights, to turn the person around, bring them to the ground, etc., and handcuff them. Of course, bystanders are going to think this is abuse. If the gu listened the first time, it would've been a much easier process.


Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

And in the years as a bouncer and security I talked my way out of lots of conflicts and go lots of people to leave.

Sometimes force was required.

What about the time I saw five guys beating on this small guy by himself. Should I have not gotten involved? Should I have just asked them how they were feeling?

No, I acted and stopped the fight by hurting multiple of them real fast as they did not listen to me when I yelled stop. Afterwards, I was able to talk to them but I had their attention and they knew the result of not listening to me when I am the one who at the moment is responsible and in charge.

The police once told me I should have let this guy and his 10 friends hit this young woman. I asked him and the rest of the police if they would have wanted their wives/girlfriends or daughters to get hit like that or not?

Sometimes talking does not work.

I totally agree. And this is why the use of a tazer is sometimes warrented. If the police or yourself would have tazed someone in order to stop someone from beating up a smaller person, I would have no problem with that.

Using a tazer to get a nonviolent person to comply is different, however...especially in a situation regarding an ID. Tazing someone for that doesn't seem worth it.

 

[Makalakumu]

What would you do in your situation, if the person you were dealing with, did not comply to your verbal instructions? I don't frequent bars/clubs, but I'd imagine if the bouncers told someone who was not complying with the rules of the establishment, to leave, and the person refused, I'd imagine he'd be forcefully removed.

If an officer tells someone to turn around and put their hands behind their back and they refuse, is the ofc. supposed to keep repeating himself until the suspect complies? I wouldn't think so. They are now resisting and the officer would be well within their rights, to turn the person around, bring them to the ground, etc., and handcuff them. Of course, bystanders are going to think this is abuse. If the gu listened the first time, it would've been a much easier process.


Mike

Alot of this changes if the officers were placing him under arrest. If the person isn't resisting arrest and is simply not complying with instructions, why can't the officers just take the person out without making a scene? I've seen it plenty of times before and I've certainly escorted my share of people out of the building peacefully. Why not just put the cuffs on someone and put them in the back of the squad? Why do they have to force the person with a tazer to comply when they could simply bend down and do it much quieter with some elbow grease?

Look, if the person fights, taze the dude. If they are simply just lying there or just standing there, the need to do so, hasn't been met, IMHO. It's like any other force continuum that we have to think about as martial artists.

 

[michaeledward]

I would like someone to convince me that this is not an incident related to walking while Muslem?

As I have said, the video does not show the beginning of the altercation. We can not know how it began. The video does show the student restrained by handcuffs when the tazings occurred. I noticed three incidences. Someone else mentioned five. As for the availability of videos: in the video you can see students recording the event on their telephones.

As to whether the student was being a jerk or not ... we have only the video tape to refer to, by which time he was restrained. I think I can understand someone acting like a jerk if they believe they are restrained for an inappropriate reason. But, it is also irrelevant.

How the detained person acts should have no bearing on how the authories act. This is the discussion we have had many times over concerning torture/aggressive interrogation. The reason we should not torture is because of what it does to and says about US. Not because of what it does to the subject.

When the authority powers are crying out for the detainee to 'Stand Up' (repeatedly), it would seem obvious that the detainee is not resisting. Again, we have no clear vision in the video. I suppose he could have wrapped his legs around a supporting column beam to resist. But, the instruction 'Stand Up', by the very nature of its repetition seems to indicate the subject is exercising some sort of passive resistance.

Yes, there is a bit of speculation in this post. I remain open to new evidence.

But it has never been a crime to be an ******* in this country. And in most places in this country, you do not have to be tattooed with an ID number to move about your community.

 

[MJS]

Alot of this changes if the officers were placing him under arrest. If the person isn't resisting arrest and is simply not complying with instructions, why can't the officers just take the person out without making a scene? I've seen it plenty of times before and I've certainly escorted my share of people out of the building peacefully. Why not just put the cuffs on someone and put them in the back of the squad? Why do they have to force the person with a tazer to comply when they could simply bend down and do it much quieter with some elbow grease?

Look, if the person fights, taze the dude. If they are simply just lying there or just standing there, the need to do so, hasn't been met, IMHO. It's like any other force continuum that we have to think about as martial artists.

Something tells me that if they had atempted to physically remove this person, he would not have gone quietly. Did they not ask him to leave at first and for ID? He was escalating the situation himself. When the suspect resists, the officers are within their rights to escalate their force. Less lethal such as OC, taser, and eventually deadly force.

I'm still interested to hear what you would have done in your instance, with people that you mentioned. If they did not comply, what was your next course of action?

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

First of all, Rich, I commend you for taking the initiative to actually call and write your representatives about what you feel. People need to realize that the only way that they'll see your point of view is if you communicate it.

Secondly, I want to attempt to show you how your two analogies may be linked.



Imagine if they came into your home while you were at home and you simply asked the officers why...and they tazed you while they ransacked your house. Imagine standing in front of your private records, demanding a reason for their confiscation, and they taze you to get them.



If you look at this as a continuum, where the government uses more and more force merely to make you comply, then you'll see the connection. If the state has the right to make "jerks" dance just for being "jerks," then this is a step in the direction of actual tyranny.

Its the difference between having a law on the book and actually being able to carry it out.

John,

My exwife before she moved out but after I filed, had her boyfriend come over to kick my *** and "Kill me" ** His words to me when I picked up the phone to make a call **. I called 911 and asked for the police to come out.

A few minutes later the boyfriend showed up and started taking out a metal pipe from the back of his truck. The ex-wife was opening the garage door up for him.

Note: I cannot stop her a she lives there. I cannot touch her.

I call 911 again and get the same dispatch. I explain that I had called earlier and that I was calling back because the boyfriend had showed up.

The dispatch told me that a detective would come out the next day to bring charges against me for calling falsely to 911 if I called again. I then yelled at her that the Boyfriend had a weapon and she had opened the door from the house to the garage. SHe told me to shut the door. ** I explained to her that I cannot stop her, I cannot kick the door for that would be considered an assault on her. So I ran out the back with the phone.

The 911 dispatch set an officer who was only told "Domestic".

She shows up and weighs about 115 pounds with her vest on and was about 5'2" . I come out of the shadows of the front porche with the phone. She gets out of the car and see the Ex and Boyfriend in the Garage.

She see me, and tells me to stop. I said, "Officer I called". all she knew was that I was not doing as she wanted. I was not quiet even though I had stopped moving. She then tells me to sit. I sit. She then pulls her weapon and points it at me. Her hands are shaking. I am very afraid. She then tells me to stand, and asks what is in my Hand. "The phone I called you from". She said put it down. I dropped it on the grass. She then said coem over to her car where I did and then followed instructions to get frisked and cuffed. The weapons check in the groin area caught each testicle as she checked for dangerous weapons. I refused to move even in the pain. Why as I did not want to give her a reason to shot me or beat me or what have you. She then puts me into the back of her car, and goes and talks to the ex and the BF. She comes back and says get out I am leaving as they did not call. I did not leave her car as I was hand cuffed with my hands behind my back and told not to speak. I staid there until she asked me if I wanted to go down to the station. I said yes I did as then I could talk to someone. At this point three other vehicles roll in as she had not cleared yet. She reaches in and grabs me by the hair and pulls me out. I comply as I do not want to be seen resisting no matter how peaceful my intentions. She un-cuffs me shoves me back in the car and goes back to the Ex. An officer gets me out, much nicer, and I am asked if I live there. I reply yes. I tell them I have filed and she has not moved out yet. He is the BF. They then ask the initial responding officer why she called, and she replies that my ex has stated she did not call. They turn to me and ask if I did. I said yes sir. The officer turns to her and asks her what she is going to do now? She states she is going to leave is there is no issue. I ask if she would take apolice report so I could get a PPO against her BF. She then told me the law was there for women and that I could not abuse it that way. I turned to the Sergeant (* quiet until now *) and ask if I can have a report, or I will call the state police directly for a report and before they leave could I get their names and badge numbers and vehicle numbers. The sergent then turns to her and tells her to do the report.

She get my ex and BF to state that he had called and that she had egged him on over to have me fight him. The ex also told her I was into Martial Arts. The police officer took the report and then took over a week for her to write it up so I could get a copy and get my PPO. When I got it stated that I was running around with the weapon not the BF and that I was trained to kill people and that she thought I was the one who should have been jailed that night. ** Not that anyone as jailed at all **

The good thing about that night was that the police officer told th ex for her safety she should leave for that night, and the next morning she filed her own PPO against me *** Hmmm maybe why the officer delayed my report as a male I need some proof where as a female in our state is given all benefit for their safety and rightfully so ***. The point is that she then had to list she lived elsewhere so she could not come back while I was there and as I lived there I could call the police and they would just ask her to leave.

So as to the police who tazered this guy you do not know what they were told.

As to what as said before the tape started you do not know.

As to have my person violated and abused in front of my neighbors I completely understand.

So I understand more so than many about abuse of power.

I still say based upon the information I have here it was a good call. Like I said, if more details come out then I can reivew my position at that time.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I would like someone to convince me that this is not an incident related to walking while Muslem?

As I have said, the video does not show the beginning of the altercation. We can not know how it began. The video does show the student restrained by handcuffs when the tazings occurred. I noticed three incidences. Someone else mentioned five. As for the availability of videos: in the video you can see students recording the event on their telephones.

As to whether the student was being a jerk or not ... we have only the video tape to refer to, by which time he was restrained. I think I can understand someone acting like a jerk if they believe they are restrained for an inappropriate reason. But, it is also irrelevant.

How the detained person acts should have no bearing on how the authories act. This is the discussion we have had many times over concerning torture/aggressive interrogation. The reason we should not torture is because of what it does to and says about US. Not because of what it does to the subject.

When the authority powers are crying out for the detainee to 'Stand Up' (repeatedly), it would seem obvious that the detainee is not resisting. Again, we have no clear vision in the video. I suppose he could have wrapped his legs around a supporting column beam to resist. But, the instruction 'Stand Up', by the very nature of its repetition seems to indicate the subject is exercising some sort of passive resistance.

Yes, there is a bit of speculation in this post. I remain open to new evidence.

But it has never been a crime to be an ******* in this country. And in most places in this country, you do not have to be tattooed with an ID number to move about your community.

MichaelEdward,

I have no proof that it was or was not as you suggest. They might be prejudiced. I grant that.

As to the Nazi reference of Tattoo of your ID, like I said even in the 80's when I was in college it was required for any computer use or library use, and that was just the rule. If you forgot it you went back and got you ID and then did your work. I do not believe the issue was no ID at all it was how the person handled themselves.

 

[michaeledward]

Something tells me that if they had atempted to physically remove this person, he would not have gone quietly. Did they not ask him to leave at first and for ID? He was escalating the situation himself. When the suspect resists, the officers are within their rights to escalate their force. Less lethal such as OC, taser, and eventually deadly force.

I'm still interested to hear what you would have done in your instance, with people that you mentioned. If they did not comply, what was your next course of action?

Mike

What is that 'something' that so tells you?

Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.

Tabatabainejad was walking with his backpack toward the door when he was approached by two UCPD officers, one of whom grabbed the student's arm. In response, Tabatabainejad yelled at the officers to "get off me." Following this demand, Tabatabainejad was stunned with a Taser.

I suppose it will take a while to determine. But it seems that there are many assumptions about the student, that are being made without substantiation.
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960

 

[MJS]

John,

My exwife before she moved out but after I filed, had her boyfriend come over to kick my *** and "Kill me" ** His words to me when I picked up the phone to make a call **. I called 911 and asked for the police to come out.

A few minutes later the boyfriend showed up and started taking out a metal pipe from the back of his truck. The ex-wife was opening the garage door up for him.

Note: I cannot stop her a she lives there. I cannot touch her.

I call 911 again and get the same dispatch. I explain that I had called earlier and that I was calling back because the boyfriend had showed up.

The dispatch told me that a detective would come out the next day to bring charges against me for calling falsely to 911 if I called again. I then yelled at her that the Boyfriend had a weapon and she had opened the door from the house to the garage. SHe told me to shut the door. ** I explained to her that I cannot stop her, I cannot kick the door for that would be considered an assault on her. So I ran out the back with the phone.

The 911 dispatch set an officer who was only told "Domestic".

She shows up and weighs about 115 pounds with her vest on and was about 5'2" . I come out of the shadows of the front porche with the phone. She gets out of the car and see the Ex and Boyfriend in the Garage.

She see me, and tells me to stop. I said, "Officer I called". all she knew was that I was not doing as she wanted. I was not quiet even though I had stopped moving. She then tells me to sit. I sit. She then pulls her weapon and points it at me. Her hands are shaking. I am very afraid. She then tells me to stand, and asks what is in my Hand. "The phone I called you from". She said put it down. I dropped it on the grass. She then said coem over to her car where I did and then followed instructions to get frisked and cuffed. The weapons check in the groin area caught each testicle as she checked for dangerous weapons. I refused to move even in the pain. Why as I did not want to give her a reason to shot me or beat me or what have you. She then puts me into the back of her car, and goes and talks to the ex and the BF. She comes back and says get out I am leaving as they did not call. I did not leave her car as I was hand cuffed with my hands behind my back and told not to speak. I staid there until she asked me if I wanted to go down to the station. I said yes I did as then I could talk to someone. At this point three other vehicles roll in as she had not cleared yet. She reaches in and grabs me by the hair and pulls me out. I comply as I do not want to be seen resisting no matter how peaceful my intentions. She un-cuffs me shoves me back in the car and goes back to the Ex. An officer gets me out, much nicer, and I am asked if I live there. I reply yes. I tell them I have filed and she has not moved out yet. He is the BF. They then ask the initial responding officer why she called, and she replies that my ex has stated she did not call. They turn to me and ask if I did. I said yes sir. The officer turns to her and asks her what she is going to do now? She states she is going to leave is there is no issue. I ask if she would take apolice report so I could get a PPO against her BF. She then told me the law was there for women and that I could not abuse it that way. I turned to the Sergeant (* quiet until now *) and ask if I can have a report, or I will call the state police directly for a report and before they leave could I get their names and badge numbers and vehicle numbers. The sergent then turns to her and tells her to do the report.

She get my ex and BF to state that he had called and that she had egged him on over to have me fight him. The ex also told her I was into Martial Arts. The police officer took the report and then took over a week for her to write it up so I could get a copy and get my PPO. When I got it stated that I was running around with the weapon not the BF and that I was trained to kill people and that she thought I was the one who should have been jailed that night. ** Not that anyone as jailed at all **

The good thing about that night was that the police officer told th ex for her safety she should leave for that night, and the next morning she filed her own PPO against me *** Hmmm maybe why the officer delayed my report as a male I need some proof where as a female in our state is given all benefit for their safety and rightfully so ***. The point is that she then had to list she lived elsewhere so she could not come back while I was there and as I lived there I could call the police and they would just ask her to leave.

So as to the police who tazered this guy you do not know what they were told.

As to what as said before the tape started you do not know.

As to have my person violated and abused in front of my neighbors I completely understand.

So I understand more so than many about abuse of power.

I still say based upon the information I have here it was a good call. Like I said, if more details come out then I can reivew my position at that time.

Good God Rich, you're lucky you're still with us today!! Sorry to hear that you had this experience. The dispatcher needs some serious retraining, as there were a number of questions that should have been asked that were not. The officer sounds like a rookie, as she seemed pretty clueless. I can see her being on the defense, as until things are sorted out, they really don't know who is who upon first arrival. Still, she didnt seem to handle the case well at all.

 

[michaeledward]

MichaelEdward,

I have no proof that it was or was not as you suggest. They might be prejudiced. I grant that.

As to the Nazi reference of Tattoo of your ID, like I said even in the 80's when I was in college it was required for any computer use or library use, and that was just the rule. If you forgot it you went back and got you ID and then did your work. I do not believe the issue was no ID at all it was how the person handled themselves.

Whether a tattooed ID is a reference to Christian Mythology or Nazi Internment camps or anything else, I will allow you to project. I made no reference to Naziism.


EDIT - This incident occurred after 11:00 PM in the evening. This makes the requirement of a Student Identification more relevant, in my opinion. - END EDIT

 

[Rich Parsons]

Good God Rich, you're lucky you're still with us today!! Sorry to hear that you had this experience. The dispatcher needs some serious retraining, as there were a number of questions that should have been asked that were not. The officer sounds like a rookie, as she seemed pretty clueless. I can see her being on the defense, as until things are sorted out, they really don't know who is who upon first arrival. Still, she didnt seem to handle the case well at all.

My lawyer advised me that being 6'3" over 250 lbs and dark complected and dark facial hair at night with her being as small as she was, there was no way anyone would not believe her if she said she was afraid at a domestic with two on one side and the odd man out being my size.

Thanks for the well wishes on that situation in the past.

*** I am off to go watch Casino Royale Ciao for now everyone ***

 

[Rich Parsons]

Whether a tattooed ID is a reference to Christian Mythology or Nazi Internment camps or anything else, I will allow you to project. I made no reference to Naziism.

ME,

In today's age with the internet arguement tht a thread has reached it point of no return when Nazi's are brought in or Hitler is referenced, I think you are walking a very thin line of leading the witness.

 

[Makalakumu]

Something tells me that if they had atempted to physically remove this person, he would not have gone quietly.

This is really hard to determine from the video. All I know is that I have had to de-escalate similar situations without using a tazer.

Did they not ask him to leave at first and for ID? He was escalating the situation himself.

The problem is that we don't see any of this. We don't see what led up to the actual tazing.

When the suspect resists, the officers are within their rights to escalate their force. Less lethal such as OC, taser, and eventually deadly force.

I didn't see any resistence other then a refusal to comply.

I'm still interested to hear what you would have done in your instance, with people that you mentioned. If they did not comply, what was your next course of action?

Inform them of the rule and wait. If they are agitated, I would attempt to use my CPI skills to de-escalate and hopefully gain compliance. If they still wouldn't comply, I would call the police and inform them that they would be charged with tresspassing. If they still didn't comply, I would let the police arrest them.

 

[MJS]

My lawyer advised me that being 6'3" over 250 lbs and dark complected and dark facial hair at night with her being as small as she was, there was no way anyone would not believe her if she said she was afraid at a domestic with two on one side and the odd man out being my size.

2 officers should always be sent on domestic calls. I don't know the policy of the dept in question, but she should not have been sent alone. In addition, as a LEO, facing danger is a daily event. If she can't handle it, IMO, she should not be a LEO.

Thanks for the well wishes on that situation in the past.

You're welcome.

 

[MJS]

What is that 'something' that so tells you?



I suppose it will take a while to determine. But it seems that there are many assumptions about the student, that are being made without substantiation.
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960

What tells me? This tells me.

http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/hc-cellphone1116.artnov16,0,698173.story

According to a campus police report, the incident began when community service officers, who serve as guards at the library, began their nightly routine of checking to make sure everyone who was using the library after 11 p.m. was authorized to do so. Campus officials said the long-standing policy was adopted to ensure students' safety.

When Tabatabainejad refused to provide his ID, the officer told him he would have to show it or leave the library.

After repeated requests, the officer left and returned with campus police, who asked Tabatabainejad to leave the premises "multiple times," according to a statement by the UCLA Police Department.

"He continued to refuse," the statement said. "As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building."


Seems to me that they made verbal attempts and they went ignored.

Mike

 

[MJS]

This is really hard to determine from the video. All I know is that I have had to de-escalate similar situations without using a tazer.



The problem is that we don't see any of this. We don't see what led up to the actual tazing.



I didn't see any resistence other then a refusal to comply.

Please see the link that I posted. It gives a bit more detail than the video.

Inform them of the rule and wait. If they are agitated, I would attempt to use my CPI skills to de-escalate and hopefully gain compliance. If they still wouldn't comply, I would call the police and inform them that they would be charged with tresspassing. If they still didn't comply, I would let the police arrest them.

In this case, you're not doing anything different than what happened here. Again, see the link. Security told him to leave, he refused, and they came back with the cops. I'm asking you, if you were in the shoes of the cops, what would you have done???

Mike

 

[MJS]

Upnorth:

After re-reading, I may have not been clear as to what I was asking. In your case, as a security officer, you stated what you would do, which sounds to me, just like what the security officers did in this case. Now, the debate is not on the security, but instead the campus police. If you were in the shoes of them, would you have used the taser, after repeatedly asking the guy to leave, or would you continue to verbally ask him to go?

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

In this case, you're not doing anything different than what happened here. Again, see the link. Security told him to leave, he refused, and they came back with the cops. I'm asking you, if you were in the shoes of the cops, what would you have done???

Escorted him out...physically. If he escalates, then I would escalate accordingly. Put the cuffs on, take him to jail for resisting arrest.

From what I saw on the video and from what I have read on this thread, I haven't seen any cause to taze him even once. Not to mention five times.

What justification do you think the cops had for tazing him, not once, not twice, not thrice...five times?

 

[Drac]

Yeah, why not cuff and carry...they had enough officers.

It's not as easy as it sounds..Dead weight is just THAT...Now your suspect is cuffed you have to make sure he doesn't sustain further injuries while in your custody...

 

[MJS]

Escorted him out...physically. If he escalates, then I would escalate accordingly. Put the cuffs on, take him to jail for resisting arrest.

So you would never use a less lethal device? You would always use physical skills?

From what I saw on the video and from what I have read on this thread, I haven't seen any cause to taze him even once. Not to mention five times.

What justification do you think the cops had for tazing him, not once, not twice, not thrice...five times?

I'm not a cop, I don't know the rules/regs. of that area, there is still not enough info to go on. I can only assume it was because he was still resisting. The city in which I dispatch for uses tasers. There have been times when a suspect was tased more than once due to non-compliance.

Mike