Ninja!

[sojobow]

Recognition within the world and not be a McDojo like the one you are "training under".

Okay lets make this Seaseme Street style of explaining: Big Bird has a system that dates back to the 14th century. Elmo wishes to learn. Big Bird teaches. Elmo becomes a ninja. Big Bird is shot by the grouch from his trash can. Elmo moves to another part of the country and sets up a dojo. Along comes prospective student. Student looks pleased. Asks questions. Answer is "oooh it is a secret, isn't that right Mr Goldfish" Mr. Goldfish thinks "go away, you are a muppet". Prospective student asks questions regading system. No one hears of it. It then becomes dubious. Emo disappears and lives in the mountians talking to birds, trees and his pet rock. Next week we shall learn the letter M &C and the long word Dojo

There are none. If a Koga system apears the we may wish to look at it and see if it is workable.

I will refer you to the answer given by another member

was Tanaka dead, did not even hear of his illness.

And what would you do?

I was actually trying to enter into a serious, honest dialoge with other Martial Artist. Pardon me for asking. Seems like not much can be learned in a Forum devoted to Ninjutsu other than a disertation on Big Bird and low-grade insults. Guess I'll stick to Ninjitsu and Himitsu Kempo.

Later.

 

[Elizium]

I used Seaseme Street as a metaphor. Look again and think about what I am saying.

 

[sojobow]

I shall try to answer the best I can from my own memory so, I'll most likely omit, misspell certain parts, but - lets seee:

This quote seems to be misleading. The first for me to doubt this is this part of the first sentance: " "I believe that there were 50 "Families." " First off, name them so they can be looked up.

The "50 Families" is a number taken from general reading. I do believe that my giving you 50 names would be of no use to you as I do know that some Family names will be omitted simply because they have ecpressed that they never want their names made public. I can understand this as we do practice Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu and some degree of secrecy is part of the curriculum. Few Koga throught history have participated in any formal "registration" programs.

Second, to believe is to show evidence as circumspect. This part of the sentance makes a claim without basis of fact. As the paragraph continues : The date (time period) of when the "systems of Ninjitsu" were established can change this estimate from one single family to the estimated 50 Koga Families depending upon how one defines "when established." Most schools can be traced to a certian area in time and location.

Making such claims without also displaying one's evidence has its purpose. The date I referenced depends upon when you want to start as a begining and not I. Personally, I have publically pronounced that I believe that Ninjitsu began with the initiation of the "Big Bang." Thus, it would depend on your definition of "Ninjitsu" or "Ninjutsu." Some others initiation date is with En-No-Goya, Tsun Tsu, The Shugendo, the Sohei, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Karumijutsu, Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu or Daisuke Nishina's Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. Thus, the debate on the "who" depends on you and what date you wish to proclaim was the initiation of the art.

I am not sure, however, the number of "Clans" of the Iga. There may have been 3 "Clans" during this same time period. From what I gathered from the books Essence of Ninjutsu and The Ninja and their sectret fighting art there seemed to have been more than 3 "Clans". But this is only from 2 books written by 2 different people.

I wouldn't disagree with your books.

As for Sojobow's recent claim that if no ryu or school is not linked through history or lineage of teaching then it is not legit..

sojobow made no such claim. Maybe you will re-organize the statement. sojobow does, however, claim that all Koga Families did not belong to any "Clan" nor did they establish any "school" but that they would assist the Clan community when called or hired.

I would say that you are wrong. Ninjutsu came originally from India, through China and were settled in Japan. From India came the fighting or first account of what could be called as ninja. China added to this by Sun Tzu document treatise "The Art of War", then following the religious battles for China, they settled in Japan. This is where Togakure Ryu stems from. Over the years, schools such as Kukishin developed and from there offshoots of other schools began. Even Takagi Yoshin Ryu had to come from somewhere. But as documentation from the medievil period no longer exists and all densho are copied from the original the history is intact. Any misfortune like what Sojobow described as the last, the scrolls will remain and be picked up again as a historical fighting system not as a real traditional /modern system.
these are my thoughts though, as I see this subject of the thread.

An example of common knowledge that we would most likely hear or read from the majority of Dojo today. Very basic stuff.

Adding this: Koga Families would at times accept assignments requiring them to travel outside of Japan. I have seen no "LAW" that said that all Ninja assignments were performed INSIDE of Japan as most students take for granted. Assignments might require them to travel to China, korea, Mongolia, the "Stans" (today's afganistan etc), India, Turkey. I have looked (in no particular depth) at the battles of Khan in China and west to Turkey and the Balkins. I see evidence of Ninjitsu techniques used in some of khan's battles. I see evidence that some of "khans Messengers" had to be what we call "Ninja." If a Ninja family assisted Khan, that Ninja Family would have had to re-establish his family outside of Japan and whose to say his ancestors do no exist today in other parts of the world. I have also looked at some of Attilla's battles and also see evidence of Ninja assistance which would mean that other families would have had to leave mainland Japan. If this is true, we may all be limiting the scope of this martial system.

 

[Elizium]

Hmmm So you are saying the the two books I have looked into written by Stephen K. Hayes and Masaaki Hatsumi are wrong? If so then one of your posts must be wrong as I placed a direct quote from the Hayes book that said what you basically placed in a thread. Mind you, you also went on to flavor the post with bits of fantasy too.


Also this about the Turks using ninjas in battle? Where has this come from? From what I gather in the Royal Armouries in Leeds UK, there is no evidence of the using ninjas. Ninja has been a Japanese thing. Maybe they used what looked like ninja techniques, but I doubt that ninjas would be present in the Middle East or China. China locked all borders off to stop the influence of the outside contaminating their culture. The great wall of China was built for this purpose also. So if the ninjas were used than they would be classed as foreign invaders and dealt with if found. China was a very difficult place to be in even for a "ninja".

IMO all countries had at one point a sort of ninja influence. Assasins did not appear overnight by someone thinking "I know... let me kill this person for this reason by doing it this way". Every country has had something along the lines of ninja, even America with the Rangers.

So I pour cold water onto your idea of ninjas outside of Japan. They may have travelled, but I doubt they could be of any use due to linguistic difficulties.

 

[sojobow]

I tried to find a short list I have on Iga Clan and Koga Family names but can't at the moment. I do remember the Family names of Yagyu and Tanaka and an Iga Clan name of something like Oe that is on the lists. I don't really study much about the Iga side as once I became confident that what the Iga's of today practice is a form that would exhibit some resemblance of Ninjitsu, I basically left the subject of their authenticity alone and really directed my limited energy to trying to understand Koga Yamabushi. I don't pay much attention to Koryu as much as I do that of modern Ninjitsu as it exist today and specifically its modern battle tactics, channelling, spirituality and applications that will assist me in today's survival. I'll find the list later today and add a couple more names for you to look up. It's 4:30 AM and I starting to see Tengu peaking in my windows.

Tell me what you find when you look them up.

Peace!

 

[Elizium]

Sojobow, I see that you are wanting to learn about history. Best thing to remember is that 9/10ths of all history is wrong in Japan. The Japanese were good at doing the Ministry of Truths (read George Orwell's book 1984). With history, everything is littered with acocunts favouring the people they were aligned to. Even the Lindesfarne papers of the Viking acocunts of massacre were tainted to the negative of the Vikings (even though the Vikins were not really savage or barbaric, they were the Swedish what did most of that, but the Vikings got tarred with the reputation and so history is remembered as Vikings barbaric)

A Yahoo search brought up this link that has 53 names or Ryu(?) from the Koga era. I guess many more are available, but search engines only take one page and make that available, not a collective website.

Anyways here is one link:

http://www.bufuikan.com/kogaden.html

Have a look and see if this is any use.

Also remeber that most of the posters like Mr. Roley and Mr. Severe do know their history. And I know of an 8th Dan that has researched extensive Japan history and Kata. His knowledge is well known so much that on Kutaki.org he is talked about in reverence as the man that knows. But as you have said, research is important and I will keep looking.

 

[Don Roley]

Adding this: Koga Families would at times accept assignments requiring them to travel outside of Japan. I have seen no "LAW" that said that all Ninja assignments were performed INSIDE of Japan as most students take for granted. Assignments might require them to travel to China, korea, Mongolia, the "Stans" (today's afganistan etc), India, Turkey. I have looked (in no particular depth) at the battles of Khan in China and west to Turkey and the Balkins. I see evidence of Ninjitsu techniques used in some of khan's battles. I see evidence that some of "khans Messengers" had to be what we call "Ninja." If a Ninja family assisted Khan, that Ninja Family would have had to re-establish his family outside of Japan and whose to say his ancestors do no exist today in other parts of the world. I have also looked at some of Attilla's battles and also see evidence of Ninja assistance which would mean that other families would have had to leave mainland Japan. If this is true, we may all be limiting the scope of this martial system.

Do you want to cite your sources, or are you just going to let us treat what you write as the premis for a bad ninja movie?

Honestly, if you want us to take you seriously, you either have to back up what you write with facts and logic, or stop making such broad leaps of faith and presenting them as established facts.

 

[heretic888]

Ok, here's my take...

I've read a number of post in this thread stating that, unless one's Ryu links back to Hatsumi's schools, that Ryu is not legit.

Nope, but sorry. Its more of a matter that if a school cannot trace its origins back further to the current headmaster (such as Dux) --- and actually prove he did not creat the art himself --- then its probably not legit. Hatsumi-soke can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he trained under Takamatsu. Dux cannot make the same claim regarding this mysterious "Tanaka" person.

And, even then, that's just a starting point. All that's proven is that the ninjutsu school is actually Japanese in origin. After that, you actually have to go about and demonstrate that the school has really been around for so and many generations.

Although usually it seems that this statement is made by a Bugi.

I don't know what a "bugi" is.

Also, that Koga "died out" and no longer exists (some say this untimely death took place hundreds of years ago - some say that last of the Koga died in a car accident back in the 60's. In fact, we are hearing that Fuji's entire leadership was in this car so no one could have continued on the Koga side which seem very convenient to Buji marketing.

It also happens to be extremely convenient that that is what actually happened, too. Do a little research into the subject, fer crissakes.

That's like saying that it just happens to be "convenient" for evolutionists that there is a fossil record, or "convenient" for heliocentrists that the earth is not the center of the universe.

1) If a Koga Ryu or even a Ryu-ha would "suddenly spring up and declare their Ryu," to whom "exactly" would this Koga Ryu have to submit this declaration too?

Anybody that they wanted to take their historical claims seriously. If they aren't interested in being taken seriously as a historical school, then they shouldn't worry about it.

2) For what purpose would the Koga Ryu make this declaration?

To prove they are not talking out of their asses with their historical claims.

3) To whom would this Ryu"be treated as a joke for all time" too (using your term)?

Anyone interested in the historical claims of the ryu, which would probably be a large number of martial artists.

4) If a Ryu choses not to submit this declaration to whomsoever, what is the sanction?

They will be regarded as a "joke for all time" by those that are interested in the history.

5) Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)?

Yes. And it was not practiced by more than 1 million people during its entire history --- let alone any single time. And, again, it is still questionable whether Fujita was actually the inheritor of a real ninjutsu ryuha or not in the first place.

An entire lineage dating (some say dating back to circa 700 AD - some say even prior to 500 BC) back prior to the Clan wars; before the Shogun wars now is only represented by ONE SCHOOL or ONE INDIVIDUAL?;

Clan wars?? Shogun wars?? Geez, man, where are you getting your historical terms from --- a roleplaying game??

In any event, any "lineage" that dates back to 700 CE should be suspect in and of itself.

6) Who presented proof to you, since you seem to believe that all remnants of Tanaka are dead, that Koga Ninjitsu is dead and would you be so kind as to present this proof within this thread? (If you don't have the proof, I'll take your word for it)

You can't prove a negative, silly.

7) In hand-to-hand combat, would you want to keep the back of your hands facing towards your opponent and if so, why so?

Depends on the situation.

The "50 Families" is a number taken from general reading.

I believe the exact numbers people are referring to are the 53 families of Koga, and the 45 families of Iga (which Hatsumi-soke actually lists at the end of Essence of Ninjutsu). I've seen these numbers referred to in other sources, as well.

Making such claims without also displaying one's evidence has its purpose. The date I referenced depends upon when you want to start as a begining and not I. Personally, I have publically pronounced that I believe that Ninjitsu began with the initiation of the "Big Bang." Thus, it would depend on your definition of "Ninjitsu" or "Ninjutsu." Some others initiation date is with En-No-Goya, Tsun Tsu, The Shugendo, the Sohei, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Karumijutsu, Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu or Daisuke Nishina's Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. Thus, the debate on the "who" depends on you and what date you wish to proclaim was the initiation of the art.

On the basis of those flimsy criteria, when I'm sneaking up on my cat in the morning, then I'm practicing "ninjutsu". This is just silly --- nobody even referred to groups of individuals as shinobi until around the 1400's. Dating it back to En no Gyoja or Prince Yamato Takeru is a slippery slope, to say the least.

sojobow made no such claim.

Sojobow also needs to learn to speak in the first person.

Adding this: Koga Families would at times accept assignments requiring them to travel outside of Japan.

Prove it. Cite some sources.

I have seen no "LAW" that said that all Ninja assignments were performed INSIDE of Japan as most students take for granted.

I have seen no "law" that said that American colonials were not used in Korean wars at the time, either. Doesn't mean it really happened.

I have looked (in no particular depth) at the battles of Khan in China and west to Turkey and the Balkins. I see evidence of Ninjitsu techniques used in some of khan's battles. I see evidence that some of "khans Messengers" had to be what we call "Ninja." If a Ninja family assisted Khan, that Ninja Family would have had to re-establish his family outside of Japan and whose to say his ancestors do no exist today in other parts of the world. I have also looked at some of Attilla's battles and also see evidence of Ninja assistance which would mean that other families would have had to leave mainland Japan. If this is true, we may all be limiting the scope of this martial system.

*laughs* Okay, now this is just getting down-right nutty.

Human beings have been using "sneaky" tactics for a long, long time. Your notion that every "sneaky-doer" in the world is a "ninja" is beyond inane. Its utterly unbelievable that any sane human being could believe something of that sort. Its like calling anybody that's ever used a sword a "samurai", or that anybody that's ever thrown a punch is doing "karate".

If you're going to discuss history, then limit your terminology to historical terms and not these wacky personal definitions you've invented.

Laterz.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ok, here's my take...

That's like saying that it just happens to be "convenient" for evolutionists that there is a fossil record,

Laterz.

Always gotta bring that one up dontcha!

 

[sojobow]

Hmmm So you are saying the the two books I have looked into written by Stephen K. Hayes and Masaaki Hatsumi are wrong? If so then one of your posts must be wrong as I placed a direct quote from the Hayes book that said what you basically placed in a thread. Mind you, you also went on to flavor the post with bits of fantasy too.

Also this about the Turks using ninjas in battle? Where has this come from?

IMO all countries had at one point a sort of ninja influence....... Every country has had something along the lines of ninja, even America with the Rangers.

So I pour cold water onto your idea of ninjas outside of Japan. They may have travelled, but I doubt they could be of any use due to linguistic difficulties.

Your paragraph 1:
This is my quote: "I wouldn't disagree with your books." Thus, I am not saying that your quotes were wrong. I noticed your post which kind of took Mr. Roley aback as his, and another's, 'memory' was challenged.

Your paragraph 2 et al:
I never said the "Turks" used Ninjitsu in battle so, I would also like to know where it came from. The remainder of this paragaraph could possibly by explained by covert behavior and or service contracts.

Minor points:

- If a person has a special talent, the Khans took them and used them. The Mongols under Khan also invaded Japan.

- Keeping the Khans OUT of China was also a reason for the building of the Great Wall as the Mongol invasions numbered more than 1. In fact, the Mongols ruled China for a short period of time.

- Japan was "Open," then "closed," then "opened" again.

Your statement: "Every country has had something along the lines of ninja, even America with the Rangers." - may be more prolific than you express. This statement is also (which I totally agree) a point maybe misunderstood by many as all Ninjitsu is not Japanese. The term/word may be Japanese but the martial art was practiced outside of Japan before, during and after the period commonly referred to in Japanese history.

If we define Ninjitsu or Ninjutsu by what the martial art consist of rather than the kanji of Nin, the picture and history of the martial art expands.

But again, my interest is in what the martial art consisted of before its entry into Japan, what was incorporated by the Japanese and other Countrys during the same period of time, what was then incorporated when or as represented outside of Japan and, most important, the martial art's effectiveness today. It has been well documented that the effectiveness of this martial art in 1500 AD is minimal compared to today's modern martial art of Ninjitsu. A horse-drawn carriage versus a 'vett.

 

[sojobow]

Do you want to cite your sources, or are you just going to let us treat what you write as the premis for a bad ninja movie?

Honestly, if you want us to take you seriously, you either have to back up what you write with facts and logic, or stop making such broad leaps of faith and presenting them as established facts.

Show me.

 

[Elizium]

Show me.

Please, you show us where your information is from. It may help you in this discussion.

Assignments might require them to travel to China, korea, Mongolia, the "Stans" (today's afganistan etc), India, Turkey. I have looked (in no particular depth) at the battles of Khan in China and west to Turkey and the Balkins.

Then what conclusions you can give to say that the Ninja were there? Is it me or did the Mongols go through the East from 530+AD where the ninja came into the fold around 1400AD? Give or take 100 years either side of the dates. History was never my strongpoint.

 

[sojobow]

Elizium,

What is making us chuckle is Sojobow's comments about the differences between the Iga and Koga that he is claiming existed.

Your quote is accurate, but not related to the subject.

I know what you're gonna say: These guys don't count. But it does seem that they also see some differences between Iga and Koga as do I as I expressed above and in other threads. I still am more interested in the Techniques used versus who is who. Hopefully, you have some sources that back up your side. Post 1. A Soke in Canada?????? Heard this before somewhere????????????
========================================================

9 Shadows Of Koga Ryu

During the Feudal Age of Japan, in the Koga Province of Japan, there were many ninja clans (Ryu-ha) The Koga Ryu was made up of many small secretive family groups. Most of the families in the Koga Ryu were decendents of the Yamabushi, mountain warrior priests, while others were decendents of Ronin, masterless Samurai, much like modern mercenaries.

The Koga Ninja used a deception of creating false groups within the same area. These false groups would appear to challenge, or be the enemy of the Koga Ryu. Because the Koga Ryu appeared small and unimportant, they weren't considered to be a great threat, unlike the Iga Ninja.

The Iga ninja were counterparts to the Koga Ninja. The Iga Ryu used the opposite strategy of the Koga Ryu. The Iga Ryu appeared much larger than they really were, which is a Ninja strategy to forestall an attack, which worked against them later on when Oda Nobunaga attacked them in 1581 for a second time. It is said that Nobunaga's son, Katsuyori, when defeated in 1579 by the Iga Ninja, he was lead to beleive that the Iga Ninja were four times the size they thought they were.

In 1581 Oda Nobunaga attacked the Iga ryu Ninja again. this time however Nobunaga himself lead the attack against the Iga Ninja. Nobunaga's attack out numbered the Iga Ryu nearly by 10 to 1. Against not only Samurai but, expert marksmen, the Iga Ninja even with aid from the Koga Ryu hadn't a chance.

The Koga Ryu not suffered the same fate as the Iga ryu. Managed to escape the sword hunts, somewhat intact. During the period known as the Tokugawa Shogunate. The Iga Ninja under Jonin / Soke Hanzo Hattori was organized into secret police and spies. Many Ninja clans disbaned into laboureus, goverment positions and found jobs within the Yakuza (Japanese Mafia) So many beleived that the Ninja broke up forever, unknown and that a few families went undergraound. Passing the way of Ninjutsu down to the next generation.

After WWII the world was open to the Ninja. free to travel and escape their own country's confines. In the 1960's a small group of Koga Ninja emigrated from Japan to the Canadian Rocky Mountains. The leading members of the group were either businessmen or professionals (yakuza, Military or Police) In the late seventies their Soke (Grandmaster) died leaving his duties to his son.

By 1985 Soke Toshitora Yamashiro, son of the former Soke had quietly set up several dojo's in Canada and sixteen small training centers in the U.S.A.

We refer to ourselves as the,
9 Shadows Of Koga Ryu
Kevin Brian Wright

 

[Elizium]

I know what you're gonna say: These guys don't count. But it does seem that they also see some differences between Iga and Koga as do I as I expressed above and in other threads. I still am more interested in the Techniques used versus who is who. Hopefully, you have some sources that back up your side. Post 1. A Soke in Canada?????? Heard this before somewhere????????????
========================================================

9 Shadows Of Koga Ryu

During the Feudal Age of Japan, in the Koga Province of Japan, there were many ninja clans (Ryu-ha) The Koga Ryu was made up of many small secretive family groups. Most of the families in the Koga Ryu were decendents of the Yamabushi, mountain warrior priests, while others were decendents of Ronin, masterless Samurai, much like modern mercenaries.

The Koga Ninja used a deception of creating false groups within the same area. These false groups would appear to challenge, or be the enemy of the Koga Ryu. Because the Koga Ryu appeared small and unimportant, they weren't considered to be a great threat, unlike the Iga Ninja.

The Iga ninja were counterparts to the Koga Ninja. The Iga Ryu used the opposite strategy of the Koga Ryu. The Iga Ryu appeared much larger than they really were, which is a Ninja strategy to forestall an attack, which worked against them later on when Oda Nobunaga attacked them in 1581 for a second time. It is said that Nobunaga's son, Katsuyori, when defeated in 1579 by the Iga Ninja, he was lead to beleive that the Iga Ninja were four times the size they thought they were.

In 1581 Oda Nobunaga attacked the Iga ryu Ninja again. this time however Nobunaga himself lead the attack against the Iga Ninja. Nobunaga's attack out numbered the Iga Ryu nearly by 10 to 1. Against not only Samurai but, expert marksmen, the Iga Ninja even with aid from the Koga Ryu hadn't a chance.

The Koga Ryu not suffered the same fate as the Iga ryu. Managed to escape the sword hunts, somewhat intact. During the period known as the Tokugawa Shogunate. The Iga Ninja under Jonin / Soke Hanzo Hattori was organized into secret police and spies. Many Ninja clans disbaned into laboureus, goverment positions and found jobs within the Yakuza (Japanese Mafia) So many beleived that the Ninja broke up forever, unknown and that a few families went undergraound. Passing the way of Ninjutsu down to the next generation.

Seems likely but can it be verified 100%. The Yakuza are open in a way and can be asked. But they are Yakuza and their name has been banded about just like the Mafia.

After WWII the world was open to the Ninja. free to travel and escape their own country's confines. In the 1960's a small group of Koga Ninja emigrated from Japan to the Canadian Rocky Mountains. The leading members of the group were either businessmen or professionals (yakuza, Military or Police) In the late seventies their Soke (Grandmaster) died leaving his duties to his son.

By 1985 Soke Toshitora Yamashiro, son of the former Soke had quietly set up several dojo's in Canada and sixteen small training centers in the U.S.A.

We refer to ourselves as the,
9 Shadows Of Koga Ryu
Kevin Brian Wright

To me this sounds far fetched. If a group were there in the mountians, would the local police have had suspition as in the 1960's the communist threat were present. A group like this would be subject to not only Canadian police but the Americans as well. Between Alaska and Mainland USA is Canada, they wuuld have attracted the eyes of the local law enforcement.

Just my views.

 

[Don Roley]

By 1985 Soke Toshitora Yamashiro, son of the former Soke had quietly set up several dojo's in Canada and sixteen small training centers in the U.S.A.

We refer to ourselves as the,
9 Shadows Of Koga Ryu
Kevin Brian Wright

This is your source for the stuff you have been writting?

People have been asking to prove the existence of this guy Toshitora for years. He is about as beliavable as the story of Frank Dux's teacher with just as much of a lack of proof and weirdness about what he says and how it contridicts known facts in Japan.

The stuff this guy writes is just plain silly with NO facts to back it up. Kind of like Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan or any of the guys who have schools, web pages, articles, videos, etc, but pull out the "secrecy" card when proof that they did not make it all up is asked for.

 

[MisterMike]

What is it with the Koga ryu representatives that people are generally upset with?

False claims of lineage?
Historical innacuracies?

Was it really over in the 60's after a car accident?

Does anyone know where different Koga region lineages may be archived? It seems to be rather mysterious.

Thanks,

 

[Jay Bell]

Lying.

 

[sojobow]

This is your source for the stuff you have been writting?

People have been asking to prove the existence of this guy Toshitora for years. He is about as beliavable as the story of Frank Dux's teacher with just as much of a lack of proof and weirdness about what he says and how it contridicts known facts in Japan.

The stuff this guy writes is just plain silly with NO facts to back it up. Kind of like Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan or any of the guys who have schools, web pages, articles, videos, etc, but pull out the "secrecy" card when proof that they did not make it all up is asked for.

Wrong again my friend!

I only found Toshitora's website information earlier today and posted it for Tshadowchaser and yourself. As I mentioned in the first sentence: you would say that those guys don't count and this is exactly your defense. There is/was an acute difference between the Koga and Iga fighting styles, religion, and philosophies. I see no proof to the contrary. You also seem antagonistic against anything I say so it may be of some use to you to find out that there are others in this world that just might have and express similar thoughts as those I suggest.

Something like: Those in the know - know.

 

[Don Roley]

There is/was an acute difference between the Koga and Iga fighting styles, religion, and philosophies. I see no proof to the contrary.

Of course, you have no proof to back up what you say about the differences. But I can point to the fact that the Iga and Koga were frequently on the same side, Iga and Koga were just next to each other, the Iga documents talked about their ties to the Koga in the north, they both used the Bansenshukai, etc.

So much for your proof that there were differences.

You also seem antagonistic against anything I say so it may be of some use to you to find out that there are others in this world that just might have and express similar thoughts as those I suggest.

Something like: Those in the know - know.

I am antagonistic to you because you spread so much stuff you know to be false just for some advantage. You take the tone that you know something, until you are caught not knowing the first thing about the subject matter, and then you whine that you never were trying to be an expert and would someone please help you understand the truth about things like the Eta. When the heat is off, you go right back to your old tricks of trying to appear to know what you are talking about even as what you write causes me to fall off my seat laughing. You slander people I respect like Dale Seago and support a guy like Frank Dux who sullied the uniform of the United States with his false claims and attacks on the institutions that dared say that he was lying about his relationship with them.

Just recently, you tried to portray the ninjas as operating outside of Japan. This is probably your latest strategy to try to make it sound like even though there is no proof or supporting evidence to what you say in Japan, maybe you can convince people that the ninja tradition you claim to have sprung from transmitted itself to China. When asked for proof, you ignored it. Just like you have ignored demands for proof of what you have written here. You even went on to say that the Mongols used people from every country they invaded, and that they invaded Japan so that is where the ninja could have made the journey from Japan to China.

Except, the Mongols never conquered Japan. They never even got far off the beaches before they were beaten back in two invasion attempts and a devine wind destroyed their fleets. (Oh yes, that is why the Japanese came up with the term "kamikaze/ devine wind" for their last desperate attempt to stop the allied invasion.)

You spread all this bad information and poison the pool of knowledge out there all for your own gain and then expect people to treat you with respect? When you say something false, you probably will get laughed at for it. When you knowingly lie for the gain of your school, you are not going to make many friends.

MisterMike, does this answer your question about why people are antagonistic towards those claiming to be Koga? If you want an honest, documented account of the Koga ryu go to www.Jigokudojo.com and look for an article by me in the article section.

 

[MisterMike]

Yes, pretty much. Thanks for the link - I'll be checking it out today.

:asian: