New Aikido invented for self-defence by Ljubomir Vračarević

[drop bear]

I wonder if the extreme sweatiness of the fighters in MMA competition might make it harder to apply some of these techniques.

If we are talking about why standing arm locks don't work it is defended with tyrannosaurus arms.

 

[Tez3]

When people talk about MMA and what works I think they often forget how much input the promoters have in what you see. Promoters when matching fights have a list of fighters weights and experience of course but they also have a list of crowd pleasing fighters, those that will put bums on seats. fighters know this and tailor their fighting styles towards pleasing promoters as much as winning fights after all if you can't sell seats you aren't going to get fights. They want 'show business' not necessarily a fighter who is extremely talented but very boring. The cry goes up that you don't see X or Y styles working in the cage, the truth is they are very likely to but are also likely to be fast and efficient not something a promoter wants. he wants three/four rounds of entertainment not one minute of round one then endex. It's a nightmare when you have finishes in the first round, your show which you thought would last all evening lasts a third of the time and you end up with long intervals between each fight plus unhappy bored customers.
There is far more than 'pure' fighting going on in MMA comps, it's unfair to start saying that styles don't work because you don't see them as they are usually in the cage, the chances are though that you may well see some part of any style in there...as long as it's entertaining as well as useful. people forget that as much as anything MMA is a business not just a competitive martial arts style.

 

[K-man]

What did I do?

Mate, you produced nothing but your best effort, but the forum is like a farmer planting a crop. He plants the seeds, rains come and the crop grows. All looks great. Then along comes someone with no knowledge of cropping and sprays it with weed killer.

The ground here is now contaminated, I'll plant some more seeds elsewhere.

 

[K-man]

It would be interesting to see a BJJ competitor who was also proficient in Tomiki Aikido slip in some of these techniques in a grappling match. Unfortunately, it's not one of the more widely practiced forms of Aikido so there probably aren't that many people out there with the right skill set.

To each their own. If I had good Tomiki Aikido instruction available to me, I would definitely check it out.

I doubt it. Compared to BJJ for competition this sort of competition just doesn't stack up. The rules basically preclude grappling so you have to catch and throw.

Based on my own experience reaching proficiency (or not) in various skills, I bet I would reach the point fo being able to apply that against a non-compliant person much quicker if I trained like the Tomiki guys than if I trained like most of the other Aikido practitioners I've watched training.

I doubt it. I have a friend, highly ranked, over 20 years of practice, competes in Japan in the world titles and still can't perform ikkyo on a resisting opponent. Good luck though.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

While not Aikido here is a pretty long video of a BJJ practitioner who utilizes wrist locks in his training, competing, etc.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Standing arm locks work just fine but my personal opinion is that they work best when you have already lit the other guy up. If he is fuzzy on his feet then they work just fine.

 

[K-man]

While not Aikido here is a pretty long video of a BJJ practitioner who utilizes wrist locks in his training, competing, etc.

You would be surprised at how much overlap there is and if you look at the videos that Xue posted on Chin Na you will see the same lock time after time.

Standing arm locks work just fine but my personal opinion is that they work best when you have already lit the other guy up. If he is fuzzy on his feet then they work just fine.

That is true for all Aikido techniques. Throw an atemi and you get a response that allows you to perform the technique. My measure as to whether you can do it properly or not is to be able to perform the technique softly and slowly without the atemi and against an experienced resisting partner. The actual physical movement of ikkyo you can learn in 15 minutes. Making it work on a non compliant partner takes years. Even the first technique I got took me fourteen months judging by the above criteria. I remember it like yesterday. Aikido doesn't give up its secrets readily.

 

[drop bear]

When people talk about MMA and what works I think they often forget how much input the promoters have in what you see. Promoters when matching fights have a list of fighters weights and experience of course but they also have a list of crowd pleasing fighters, those that will put bums on seats. fighters know this and tailor their fighting styles towards pleasing promoters as much as winning fights after all if you can't sell seats you aren't going to get fights. They want 'show business' not necessarily a fighter who is extremely talented but very boring. The cry goes up that you don't see X or Y styles working in the cage, the truth is they are very likely to but are also likely to be fast and efficient not something a promoter wants. he wants three/four rounds of entertainment not one minute of round one then endex. It's a nightmare when you have finishes in the first round, your show which you thought would last all evening lasts a third of the time and you end up with long intervals between each fight plus unhappy bored customers.
There is far more than 'pure' fighting going on in MMA comps, it's unfair to start saying that styles don't work because you don't see them as they are usually in the cage, the chances are though that you may well see some part of any style in there...as long as it's entertaining as well as useful. people forget that as much as anything MMA is a business not just a competitive martial arts style.

If you were talking about the ufc then there is an element. But even then I am sure ronda rousey will get another fight even when she finished the last one in 14 seconds.

But you don't see certain things at any level of mma competition. C class beginner fights where everybody is a bit crap would be the perfect vehicle for aikido to do a come try. And they don't.

 

[drop bear]

Standing arm locks work just fine but my personal opinion is that they work best when you have already lit the other guy up. If he is fuzzy on his feet then they work just fine.

Then you would still see them in mma because of the hitting.

 

[moonhill99]

Based on my own experience reaching proficiency (or not) in various skills, I bet I would reach the point fo being able to apply that against a non-compliant person much quicker if I trained like the Tomiki guys than if I trained like most of the other Aikido practitioners I've watched training.

Aikido was more striking when it started than later on Morihei Ueshiba changed Aikido where there was less striking and more softer.

So a lot of Aikido you have today is less on striking. The striking it does have is more for blocking than doing harm.

Some of these combative schools not only are using striking to injured or killed the person but also set up person for wrist grab.

Ljubomir Vračarević, a self-defence instructor from Serbia uses lot of dancing around the person and seem to make a grab from sides than the front.

That may be why the fast pace moves around the person. May be Ljubomir Vračarević thinks it is easier to grab from side than the front.

I think the problem with Aikido that some people say is it takes 10 to 15 years for it to work. Even so many people may not get it, because nobody that is skilled is going to pull out their hand in fight for you to grab.

Boxers or wing chun hardly bring their arm out and strike too fast.

May be that is why Ljubomir Vračarević t is trying do these fast dancing around moves to confuse them and try to gram from side when he pulls back his fist than other way around. Standing in front and trying to grab and douching hits at the same time.

 

[Spinedoc]

Aikido was more striking when it started than later on Morihei Ueshiba changed Aikido where there was less striking and more softer.

So a lot of Aikido you have today is less on striking. The striking it does have is more for blocking than doing harm.

Some of these combative schools not only are using striking to injured or killed the person but also set up person for wrist grab.

Ljubomir Vračarević, a self-defence instructor from Serbia uses lot of dancing around the person and seem to make a grab from sides than the front.

That may be why the fast pace moves around the person. May be Ljubomir Vračarević thinks it is easier to grab from side than the front.

I think the problem with Aikido that some people say is it takes 10 to 15 years for it to work. Even so many people may not get it, because nobody that is skilled is going to pull out their hand in fight for you to grab.

Boxers or wing chun hardly bring their arm out and strike too fast.

May be that is why Ljubomir Vračarević t is trying do these fast dancing around moves to confuse them and try to gram from side when he pulls back his fist than other way around. Standing in front and trying to grab and douching hits at the same time.

Umm, well, let's address a few things here.

1. The striking in Aikido is the same as it was pre WWII. O'Sensei did not soften techniques very much, see my other thread where we can find 82% of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu techniques in modern day Aikikai Aikido. I think people are misinterpreting the "softening" of Aikido. The techniques were not substantially altered, especially if you look at Saito Sensei's records and replication of O'Sensei's aikido. What was softened was the intent. This is the main difference between Daito Ryu and Aikido, intent. Not technique, not ability, but intent.

2. Aikido uses atemi (strikes) to set up techniques....ALL....THE....TIME. In fact, I would argue that many techniques in Aikido will not work without the atemi. Katatedori Shihonage for example...if you don't hit me in the face, there's no way you're getting me into shihonage.

3. Aikido grabs from the sides, front, back, etc. Aikido techniques are sword based, which means many of the techniques proceed with motions in how you would move with a sword, it also means, for uke, that front on attacks and grabs are not always a great idea except in the lower kyu ranks when you are learning. One exercise that we do and preach this on is morotedori kokyunage. Nage has a sword, Uke is trying to grab nage's arm to keep him from using the sword.....we always teach to approach from the side...may only be slightly to the side, but definitely from the side.

4. Agreed on the time to become really good at Aikido. Maybe a little less, but still takes a long time...To me, that is the single best thing about it. It's a lifetime of study.

5. Aikido involves only a few grabs, not as many as most people think. For example, kosedori ikkyo, while uke will grab my hand, I don't grab back, in fact, I take him to the ground hard and don't grab his arm at all, his contact does the work for me. Until you experience it, you won't know what I mean by that.

6. All Aikido is constantly in motion. Tenkan, Tenkan, Tenkan,

Just some thoughts.

Mike

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Then you would still see them in mma because of the hitting.

These locks have been used in Law Enforcement for years. I personally have used them myself during work. As a doorman I would assume you have as well because most bouncers I know have used them when escorting people out?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You would be surprised at how much overlap there is and if you look at the videos that Xue posted on Chin Na you will see the same lock time after time.

That is true for all Aikido techniques. Throw an atemi and you get a response that allows you to perform the technique. My measure as to whether you can do it properly or not is to be able to perform the technique softly and slowly without the atemi and against an experienced resisting partner. The actual physical movement of ikkyo you can learn in 15 minutes. Making it work on a non compliant partner takes years. Even the first technique I got took me fourteen months judging by the above criteria. I remember it like yesterday. Aikido doesn't give up its secrets readily.

I would absolutely agree K-man!

 

[Tez3]

If you were talking about the ufc then there is an element. But even then I am sure ronda rousey will get another fight even when she finished the last one in 14 seconds.

But you don't see certain things at any level of mma competition. C class beginner fights where everybody is a bit crap would be the perfect vehicle for aikido to do a come try. And they don't.

Have you promoted any fights shows? I have, a good many from amateur fights to pro fights, I think you have perceptions that aren't backed by facts. I'm also beginning to doubt that you actually know what MMA is.

 

[drop bear]

These locks have been used in Law Enforcement for years. I personally have used them myself during work. As a doorman I would assume you have as well because most bouncers I know have used them when escorting people out?

correct but the defining factor of a lock working cant be hitting. If competitions with hitting and locks. You don't see the locks.

 

[drop bear]

Have you promoted any fights shows? I have, a good many from amateur fights to pro fights, I think you have perceptions that aren't backed by facts. I'm also beginning to doubt that you actually know what MMA is.

Ronda rousey finished her last fight in 14 seconds is a fact. You doubting I do mma is perception not backed by facts.

So your doubts are unfounded.

 

[Tez3]

correct but the defining factor of a lock working cant be hitting. If competitions with hitting and locks. You don't see the locks.

Why are you fixated on competitions, if you look at the title of the OP it's 'Self Defence' not competitions. Your first sentence doesn't make any sense language wise.

 

[Tez3]

Ronda rousey finished her last fight in 14 seconds is a fact. You doubting I do mma is perception not backed by facts.

What has Rousey got to do with Aikido?

"Do" is not the same as "understand". I didn't say you don't 'do' MMA, I said I doubt you understand what it actually is.

 

[drop bear]

What has Rousey got to do with Aikido?

"Do" is not the same as "understand". I didn't say you don't 'do' MMA, I said I doubt you understand what it actually is.

you raised the subject.

"necessarily a fighter who is extremely talented but very boring. The cry goes up that you don't see X or Y styles working in the cage, the truth is they are very likely to but are also likely to be fast and efficient not something a promoter wants. he wants three/four rounds of entertainment not one minute of round one then endex. It's a nightmare when you have finishes in the first round, your show which you thought would last all evening lasts a third of the time and you end up with long intervals between each fight plus unhappy bored customers."

Ronda rousey finished her fight in the first round. At top level competition.

So I seriously doubt that you don't see akido guys in mma because they finish fights too fast.



And you doubt about whether i understand mma is still based on your perception and still wrong.

 

[drop bear]

Why are you fixated on competitions, if you look at the title of the OP it's 'Self Defence' not competitions. Your first sentence doesn't make any sense language wise.

It doesn't matter if it is a competition or not. It is an example of an environment that allowed hitting and arm locks. And does not have many arm locks.

So hitting cannot be the main factor regarding arm lock success.