Need some information on Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kframe, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Hi, I was not sure if this was the correct forum for this but here goes. I was hoping for some information on BBT. Like how it compares and contrasts with Karate and related arts such as TKD. What the scopes of its training is. What type of kata and forms do they practice. Weapons training IE knives and such? The scope of its unarmed system.

    What are some sample basic/intermediate/advanced responses to typical attacks such as the jab cross, the haymaker, the cocked back straight, various front snap and push kicks to various targets and round kicks at various heights and power levels. Clinch techniques or ways of dealing with it. Do they have in there techniques take down defenses against various takedowns and tackles, and single legs/double legs?

    With regards to weapons, I understand that they do some sword work. How does it compare to ARMA and other European sword revival styles?

    Also tips on spotting a quality BBT school. Things to look out for and questions to ask.

    My mma gym has made some changes im no longer able to participate in. We were different and I learned some things I didn't think I liked. From what I understand BBT has a lot of various controlling techniques, and we practiced some various shoulder and arm and wrist control techniques and I enjoyed them immensely. Which is part of what is drawing me to BBT.

    I have ruled out karate, as I just don't like what I saw in my town and feel I want to do something on the road less traveled.

    Oddly enough, now that all the mma gyms in my city and near by have closed down, I find it kinda freeing. I can experiment with different arts that are not mma and see what I like with out feeling guilty. I am bummed that this chapter in my training is ending but it is opening another more interesting door, one that I have wanted to walk through for a long time.

    Thanks all for the information.
     
  2. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Guess ill add another question. Do the Bujinkan budo taijutsu schools pressure test there skills on live resisting opponents? Im not just talking free sparring either. I read on line that they don't spar at all. Though tbh, sparring isn't the end all be all. Still any martial art worth its salt pressure tests in some way, How does BBT pressure test its material?
     
  3. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    KFrame the absolute best advice I can give you is to go and participate in a class and see if it is for you. It is wildly different from mma because the approach and preparation is not for combative sport. Try out a local school and see if you click with the training and the instructor. Expect it to be very different to what you are used to. Good luck!
     
  4. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll take a stab at this, although I've been out of the Bujinkan for over a decade. Someone else may have more up-to-date info on current training methods.

    First, be aware that there is a fair amount of variation among Bujinkan instructors, both in approach to training and in skill level. Regardless of what anyone tells you online, you may want to check out your local school to see if the generalizations apply. That said ...

    Scope of practice is fairly broad: unarmed strikes, kicks, throws, standing joint locks, and a variety of weapons. Weapons training usually starts with the practical (short stick, knife, chain) and working up to more historical weapons such as staff, sword, and others. In my day there was almost no ground fighting, but I know that some schools have added elements of ground technique in recent years.

    The kata are of the classical Japanese style, i.e. short choreographed patterns with 2 partners. There are no solo kata of the type you see in karate and TKD.

    Most Bujinkan schools that I've seen do not spend a lot of time training against the standard techniques you are familiar with from MMA. (i.e. jab, cross, hook, round kick, double-leg, etc). Most of the techniques are practiced against a relatively small number of rather stylized attacks (lunge punches, wrist grabs, etc). The idea is that the principles learned in these defenses can be generalized against a greater variety of real-world attacks. Depending on the school, you may or may not get much chance to experiment and find out how the principles apply to more realistic attacks.

    Most Bujinkan schools do not have sparring. At the higher levels you may get to do "randori" where a defender improvises defenses against unscripted attacks. (This doesn't quite meet my definition of randori and the quality of the attacks is not generally that high in my opinion, but it's pretty much the same definition as the aikido folks use.)

    Identifying a good Bujinkan school is tricky. Hatsumi is very inconsistent in his standards for handing out rank, so the belt level of the instructor isn't much help. Probably your best bet is to show up, try a class, and see what you think.
     
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Brian, that is exactly what im doing. I have a free class this Saturday at 9am at this BBT school. http://ftwaynemartialarts.com/instructors/

    Since my mma school shut down, and the own I was attending decided to alter the schedual preventing me from training there, I can not find quality instruction in my area out side of this school and a WTF/kkw tkd school. Im not built for TKD nor do I want to do that style.

    Hence why im looking at this school seriously. From what I understand of BBT, its big on controlling, and I like that..
     
  6. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    The various x-kan arts are very different from what you've trained in before. The Bujinkan has a very different general approach to training from MMA and most traditional arts, and there's a huge variation in teaching and practice styles within the Bujinkan. I think you could say that very loosely and very broadly, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu has some similarities to traditional Japanese jujitsu -- but that's almost like comparing a Porsche and a Mack truck and saying that they're similar since they both have wheels...

    Visit the class; that's the only way you'll get a feel for the dojo.
     
  7. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey KFrame I do not know the instructor's at this school. (though I may have met one of them a long time ago) However, having said that a good indicator to me is that they have trained with Shihan Michael Asuncion as he is really, really, really good and a friend. So that is a positive in my mind.

    Budo Taijutsu does have a lot of controlling and immobilization technique and great joint locks, breakfalls and rolls. There is a heavy emphasis on utilizing weapons/tools and the same movement applies with empty hands as well.

    It is very different from your previous training but if you try it and like the instructor it may be just what you want!

    Good luck!
     
  8. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    The other big thing that is attracting me to this place, is stability. It has been in Fort Wayne for a long time. Stable. I desperately need stability.

    Why don't they spar? Surely the basic striking and striking defense and throwing and what not can be sparred>? I believe in pressure testing, so how do they, the quality ones that is, pressure test?
     
  9. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Let's talk for a moment about sparring and "pressure testing." You seem, like lots of people, to feel that you have to try out what you're doing in sparring to see if it works. Here's the problem -- sparring is not the same as a real fight. Lots of threads and discussions on that around, so I'm not delving too deep. But sparring practices a lot of things that are just plain dumb for a real fight, like move in, score, escape, and re-engage, or just plain squaring off and agreeing to fight. Not that sparring doesn't have its good things; to me, sparring is ONE way to practice the learned techniques against an opponent.

    So... how can you pressure test without sparring? You might do scenario drills (very good, but hard to do well). Many traditional arts, especially some of the Japanese arts, use a form of 2 person kata, with increasing variability as you develop skill. You start out doing a scripted response to a scripted attack, with little or no resistance. As your familiarity with the technique increases, the attack becomes less scripted, less predictable, and eventually you know how to use it against many different atacks
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
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  10. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    To be honest JKS that is the only way I have ever been taught to pressure test. Out side of the occasional Tech sparring we did in my old boxing gym. Which was more of a 2 person kata then a sparring. Im just worried that If I don't get tested that I wont know if something works. I like getting attacks thrown at me, I miss I get hit. I guess im just not familiar with how they pressure test and im not going to judge. Well ill at least try not to.

    Part of the problem is I am having a difficult time finding videos of quality instructed BBT practitioners actually using that art against live resisting opponents. I just want to see that what they are teaching holds up under stress.
     
  11. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Dale Seago doesn't stop in hereabout much anymore -- but he and quite a few others have actually used BBT in the real world.

    There's a lot of variation within the Bujinkan. There are some really good, really solid instructors who understand how to work and apply the principles and techniques in the real world. And, at about the opposite extreme, you have some that are little more than LARPers. Most are somewhere closer to the middle ground, just like most any other martial art. It may be up to you to move beyond what goes on in the dojo, and find a few students to work with. I like Rory Miller's name for that sort of thing: a Violence Prone Play Group. Find some people you can work with and actually see what works and what doesn't work.
     
  12. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Well, im kinda excited to go to this class. I have never done anything quite like it before. Should be interesting. When it is over on Saturday, ill post back my thoughts.
     
  13. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Have fun!!!
     
  14. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Just got back from class. It was a interesting experience. Class started and it was a small class. We were on our knees, feet behind us and they did some chanting in Japanese and clapped there hand and then bowed. Twice. I tried to follow along but was lost. The teacher understood, so no worries there.

    First thing we did was 2 rolls. One a forward roll and one a backwards role. The forward roll was easy to do, but I found my self unable to do the backwards roll. I Just couldn't get enough speed in my left leg to throw it over my right shoulder.

    Then we did a punching drill. The stance was very different then im used to. We started with a left lead, and my hand was extended further then I am accustomed to. It was placed in a Shuto. The right arm was in a fist near my left shoulder, my rear foot was at a 45degree angle forward. It was different but I found it in no way hindered my ability to punch. We would step, do a circular check, whose name escapes me, then stepped into the punch. They move there whole body into the punch and sink into it. It felt like it had power. Im not used to sinking like that, but it didn't feel awkward, just something I would use situationaly.

    The circular check, was odd, but I see the principal of the motion and what it is for.

    We also practiced one kick, and that was the front kick. It was Massively different then any front pushing kick I have ever seen or done. Swing your foot out like its a rock on a rope. Then when its close to its target, there is a small chamber then the push and back to its normal position. I struggled with this at first, but had the hang of this defensive maneuver quickly. Its a defensive push kick.

    The next part of the class was the hardest, and most different to me. We did 5 solo kata. When he said we were doing kata, my heart sank. I was sure we were going to do karate style multiple minute long forms. NOPE these were very short, almost like solo drills. Each one addressed something specific and the next one built of the previous.

    The first one ended in a bowling ball like finger strike to a soft area. The next we stepped back into fight stance then off the line into a high block with our rear hand raised up as well then stepped forward and the rear hand struck the neck. Each of the 5 solo kata were themed like that. Ill say this I much prefer this style of solo kata over the kind of kata performed in Karate.

    The last things we did was some self defense stuff with a partner. We did 2 wrist grab variations. I Liked these drills they felt practical. I can see the need for a defense against this kind of thing. I struggled a bit with the first wrist grab. I am not sapposed to twist the wrist but rotate the whole arm, locking each joint as the arm is rotated to its extant. I kept wanting to twist the wrist. The second variation, going the opposite direction, was easier.

    Class ended with the kneel and more chanting. We then talked for 45minutes after words. I love that nothing is a set technique for a set attack. Its all about concepts and principals. You start off rigid, learning things big and exaggerated. So that as time and your experience go by and improve you can learn to do them smaller and smaller and more efficiently.

    With regards to weapons defense we talked about knives. His philosophy on that is control the person behind the knife. They focus on using good basics and fundamentals and applying them to weapons defense.

    The pace of the class was overall a lot slower then im used to. With a focus on technical development. My previous training was a help and curse at the same time. I can only do things fast, I cant do them slowly. This will have to be unlearned. They believe that if you can do it slowly you can do it quickly, but you have to start slowly first. I did things on instinct that they teach. Such as tucking my chin and blocking my cheek with my shoulder, they teach that as well.

    While im not accustomed to the slow nature of the class, I like it. It makes it so that I can focus on proper technique and doing it correctly. At higher levels and more experience they turn up the speed. They do so gradually as time goes by.

    Overall I was impressed with his technical skill, and his ability to teach it. He was very open to my questions, as evidenced by the 45 minutes we spent talking after words.
    There was NO ego present in him or the class and im very grateful for that. I cant stand ego's any more. MMA is to full of ego.

    He had no problem with my desire to do one mma fight before im to old to do so. He made it clear that's not his focus, and I understand. I will learn the art as taught and applied. I told him my goal for a cage fight was last on my check list, that in order to learn to fight, I have to learn to defend my self first. I have to learn everything first. Thusly I must learn the art properly first. Im sure as times go by my desire to cage fight will go down. I just want to be tested, and tested hard. I need to know I can step up to the plate when called on.

    I told him, my number one goal right now and going forward is stability and consistency. That I was tired of jumping from gym to gym, and coach to coach. Never being stable, and that the fact he was here for more then a decade proves his stability.

    Overall I was impressed, and will be signing up. I told him I cant start till after November, and he was ok with that. He is not interested in making money on this. All the proceeds go to paying his way to train in Japan at the Honbo. I got a good feeling in my gut from him. It is my hope I have finally found a TMA I can call home.
     
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  15. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Quickly wanted to add this. The instructor was by my side nearly the whole time. Walking me through everything personally. I appreciated that.
     
  16. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Sounds like a great fit for you and your training. Enjoy and have fun!!!
     
  17. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    I noticed that the bujinkan does a few different Stick/staff arts. Rokushakubo, Jo,Hanbo, Jutte, Tessen, and Eda Koppo Can anyone tell me about them. I noticed that they have some That are similar in length to a kali/escrima stick. How do the techniques stack up to more popular stick arts? Just curious as I was unaware of Japanese stick arts.

    What are the others?
     
  18. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Was on another forum and noticed that the karateka were less then thrilled with my participation with the BBT. Their main complaints against BBT was that it was a entire art based around standing start drills,(here is the article they linked to)http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2011/10/standing-start-drills-whats-wrong-with.html And the total lack of sparring..

    How do others that are experienced with this art and others like it address those things?

    I find there issue with sparring odd, as the school im looking at has regularly scheduled Randori. Unless im misinterpreting the term Randori.
     
  19. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The utilization of the rokushaku bo, hanbo, etc. within Budo Taijutsu is extensive and fantastic! This is coming from someone with over 32 years in the Filipino Martial Arts. I like how the body movement in Budo Taijutsu is the same whether it is empty handed or with a weapon. Take for instance the kata you worked on the other day. Add a knife and walla it works great. Same with the hanbo, etc. Very fluid and very strong!
     
  20. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Brian, and others, can you Address Mr Djerivics issues with bbt? I don't understand the nearly vitriolic hatred he has for this art. Which for him is odd, seeing as he is such a level headed guy. Here is the link to the thread I have on it. http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3127

    I regret my fights with Chris parker, he is so smart about this stuff.123
     

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