Need more advice in cane fight practice

Maybe I am wrong, but I do not see a cane as a high percentage tool as a one or two strike, encounter ending weapon. In Kali it is an accumulation of strikes that usually end up as an opportunity for an ending blow, most often Not with the stick.
Is a cane great as a 'legal' carry weapon sound? Absolutely.
Is it logical to practice self-defense using a cane? Sure.
Just know the limitations and true practicality of using one. If you are looking at your own self-defense scenarios as something you cannot not or will not walk/run away from, then I encourage you to modify your ending. This includes additional carry weapons or better empty-handed training.

This is why a longer stick is better for "Self-defense". Jo, bo, gun, whatever you call it.

If we're talking about defending ourselves, the stick forms a defensive sphere around you, and the bigger the sphere, the more distance you can maintain. A couple of feet versus five or more makes a big difference.

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This is why a longer stick is better for "Self-defense". Jo, bo, gun, whatever you call it.

If we're talking about defending ourselves, the stick forms a defensive sphere around you, and the bigger the sphere, the more distance you can maintain. A couple of feet versus five or more makes a big difference.

View attachment 27841
I am not that certain about longer the better for self defense. I keep thinking in real life situation, like I said many times before, you are in a more confined space. Like it restaurants when you have tables and chairs and people all around. You don't have the space to swing a long stick. In another word, you do not have a 5 ft circle radius to work with. I asked the question whether my cane is too long because I don't think there is room for a long cane.

Even on the street, unless you are in the middle of the street with no car, you really don't have that much open space. Think of the walkway is only about 7 to 8ft wide, you have people, parking meters and other objects on the street, you don't have a big circle.

A few inches can make a big difference. If I have a choice, I much rather to have a 26" cane(too short for walking) and heavier. I think that's the reason people like those collapsible baton. Heavy, reasonable length for close quarter fighting.

But that's just my theory.
 
A few inches can make a big difference. If I have a choice, I much rather to have a 26" cane(too short for walking) and heavier. I think that's the reason people like those collapsible baton. Heavy, reasonable length for close quarter fighting.
From what I can tell anything below 5" or 6" (depending on context / techniques used) really won't make any difference in the range. It just means you don't have to hold the cain at the very end. Hand placement is always going to be about the same distance You'll either hold it towards the end for longer range or towards the middle. After 6" you start to get some extra space on the cane to use. In my opinion should be long enough to get some additional space where you hold the cane. There should be enough room on the straight end to hook wrists and elbows.

That little piece of the cane that is hooking around the arm is the extra space that you want. If you have to put your hands very close together to get that same amount then the cane is too short. The hand placement on the cane is about the distance you want to have in relation to the cane. This will give you to ability to use leverage, which is going to be vital in close range fighting with a cane.

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For me personally I rather have a cane that is the correct size for walking because at that point, the cane is longer than my longest weapon (my leg for kicking). The swing radius of a cane depends of the position of the hand. Holding the cane towards the middle shortens the range greatly. The range can be shorten or increased as needed so long as you can move your hand freely along the cane.


For example: the cane above is short range. He could easily swing in a restaurant space or sidewalk The swing range is a shorter distance than the elbow of the outstretch arm, But look at the picture blow. He has a nice range with room to spare. His arm isn't even extend so he's got plenty of long range available if needed.
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When fighting with a 6 foot staff the hand placement on a staff will determine the swing radius. This is also true for a cane.

The other thing you have to consider is the type of swing you are doing. You will run out of horizontal swing space before you run out of horizontal swing space. If I was in the same place as the guy in the middle, I could still do a vertical strike with a 6ft staff and not hit anyone else except the person I'm trying to hit. By you being short, you get an extra bonus in availability of vertical swing space. But in all reality. I'll probably gain some horizontal space after that initial swing. Most people are going to get up and get away from the guy with the swinging stick. Not many people want to become involved in such situations like that. You may have a couple of people who will try to tackle you, but most people don't want to be a part of the conflict that you have with the guy you are hitting.

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I'm 5'9" My sword in sheath is 39.5" which is a good size as it comes up a little above my hip. I would want a cane this size because I can place weight on it if needed. "36" is too small for walking and it feels too small when I use for a 2 hand swing of a cane that size. It's great for a two hand sword swing that requires both hands to be at the end, but it's horrible for swing where I need my hands to be far apart. Even a two hand thrust feels very short. But my sword in sheath feels just right for that vertical down strike followed by a thrust. using 2 hands.

It's going to ultimately boil down to which options you want to have available one hand options vs two hand options. I can swing a 39." cane like a one hand weapon, But I don't think I can use the "36" like a two hand weapon. This size only applies to me and my height. The size will be different for you.
 
This is why a longer stick is better for "Self-defense". Jo, bo, gun, whatever you call it.

If we're talking about defending ourselves, the stick forms a defensive sphere around you, and the bigger the sphere, the more distance you can maintain. A couple of feet versus five or more makes a big difference.

View attachment 27841
I rather have something that is long enough. I can always "choke up" on a stick to decrease the fighting range, But there's not much one can do about increasing maximum fighting range for a stick.


For the most part, and within limits. Long range sticks
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can also be used as short range sticks

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But if you only make a bat that's small enough to bunt, then you'll never hit a home run.


Retractable Baton Vs Cane: I would do this with a cane but wouldn't do this with a baton. Heck No. Clearly this guy doesn't understand the principle of the technique lol I could let my staff just fall on that and it will be over. I don't even have to swing lol. Point is, when the weapons is too short your begin to run out of certain techniques that would otherwise be effective.
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I wasn't going to put the link but after watching it. But this stuff is horrible.

And it just keeps on giving lol.

If I have someone punches at me with a baton, I'm just going to smack that arm with that steel and then let him decide how many more punches he wants to throw lol. I don't know any martial that actually fights with a stick , that teaches to open the hand. Get that angle wrong that stick will slide right down and that bat will bust the skull .. Big risk. But point is. I can make the can striking length shorter but I can't make that baton striking length longer.
 
I am not that certain about longer the better for self defense. I keep thinking in real life situation, like I said many times before, you are in a more confined space. Like it restaurants when you have tables and chairs and people all around. You don't have the space to swing a long stick. In another word, you do not have a 5 ft circle radius to work with. I asked the question whether my cane is too long because I don't think there is room for a long cane.

Even on the street, unless you are in the middle of the street with no car, you really don't have that much open space. Think of the walkway is only about 7 to 8ft wide, you have people, parking meters and other objects on the street, you don't have a big circle.

A few inches can make a big difference. If I have a choice, I much rather to have a 26" cane(too short for walking) and heavier. I think that's the reason people like those collapsible baton. Heavy, reasonable length for close quarter fighting.

But that's just my theory.
Five feet is my jo almost to the millimeter.

I can now twirl it at about three revolutions per second like a shield, much like Thor twirls Mjolnir, but with a longer radius. I practiced this technique for at least ten minutes every day for ten years, to get that fast. I'm working on four revolutions but it's not easy. I'm also real, and he's not. Positive thinking.

All the staff forms I know are specifically designed for close quarters combat, so they're pretty compact. Perfect for alley combat, the old Cantonese way. So even more perfect for the open road.
 
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From what I can tell anything below 5" or 6" (depending on context / techniques used) really won't make any difference in the range.
I think you meant 5' or 6'.

Otherwise we're into ninja tanto territory.
 
Not a cane, Not even a good video for using a baton
All the staff forms I know are specifically designed for close quarters combat, so they're pretty compact.
Most people who hear staff training think of long distance striking and fighting. It wasn't until I started to seriously train to learn the staff that I discovered that there are a lot of close range stuff in there. There's a couple of techniques where I thought. Man this is slow. I'll get punched before I hit someone like this. Then it occurred to me that maybe the movement does something else. I did a gentle test on my son and asked him what did he feel. Then I had him do a similar test to see if I felt the same thing. It worked better against grappling which is probably why it's slow and powerful vs fast and powerful. But it was always taught as a strike. Can I hit someone in the head with it. Of course, but it's like a slow power punch and not a fast powerful jab. I now enjoy the staff more, now that I understand the close range fighting techniques.

I came to this conclusion as well when I used my sword (in sheath) today using some of the staff technique. A cane of the same height would should be able to perform the same way. A Jo would be taller and a really good fit for similar moves. As we can see it can be done with a cane but if it's too short then there won't be much wood on the striking end. The movement of the hand allows him to change the length of the stick that is being used to strike. His left hand moves to the opposite end of the can and so does his right hand. A rubber tip isn't going to soften those thrusts much. Catch one of those thrust in the mouth and I'm pretty sure the other guy will want to cut his loses short unless he has a gun lol.
 
I think you meant 5' or 6'.

Otherwise we're into ninja tanto territory.
Sorry I didn't make that clear. I didn't explain my thoughts well. I was referring to the size difference between two canes. For example, a cane that is 2" or 3" smaller or larger than another cane isn't going to have a big length advantage or disadvantage. The advantages and disadvantages really don't start to appear until around 5" or 6" inch difference in cane length. It's almost like boxing. Someone with a 2"or 3" longer jab isn't going to affect you that much. You can still work with it and deal with it. It's not until that jab length reaches 5" to 6" that the jab is going to have any real length advantage.

A can that is 39" and 36" shouldn't bee a problem. But a cane that is 30" and 36" is going to have a noticeable difference in everything from driving power to having enough of the cane to hit someone with.
 
Not a cane, Not even a good video for using a baton

Most people who hear staff training think of long distance striking and fighting. It wasn't until I started to seriously train to learn the staff that I discovered that there are a lot of close range stuff in there. There's a couple of techniques where I thought. Man this is slow. I'll get punched before I hit someone like this. Then it occurred to me that maybe the movement does something else. I did a gentle test on my son and asked him what did he feel. Then I had him do a similar test to see if I felt the same thing. It worked better against grappling which is probably why it's slow and powerful vs fast and powerful. But it was always taught as a strike. Can I hit someone in the head with it. Of course, but it's like a slow power punch and not a fast powerful jab. I now enjoy the staff more, now that I understand the close range fighting techniques.
A way to spot good staff training is to watch the hands move effortlessly around the stick. A longer staff gives you a lot more room to extend and contract. Jow Ga's staff form shares a lot of common ancestry with the other Eight Trigram long staff forms, and it's not too difficult to translate it to shorter sticks. It's all in the hands.


 
A way to spot good staff training is to watch the hands move effortlessly around the stick. A longer staff gives you a lot more room to extend and contract. Jow Ga's staff form shares a lot of common ancestry with the other Eight Trigram long staff forms, and it's not too difficult to translate it to shorter sticks. It's all in the hands.


I seen so many cane videos in the last 2 days I'm done lol. It will be interesting where Alan ends up with his training with the additional training. Unfortunately I couldn't fine many people sparring with canes except for the Irish stick fighting.
 
I seen so many cane videos in the last 2 days I'm done lol. It will be interesting where Alan ends up with his training with the additional training. Unfortunately I couldn't fine many people sparring with canes except for the Irish stick fighting.
There are no short stick sets in Chinese that I know of. As in cane short.

The Irish will fight with anything on hand.
 
There are no short stick sets in Chinese that I know of. As in cane short.

The Irish will fight with anything on hand.
Tai chi has cane forms. But I don't feel comfortable with recommending anything to Alan that I couldn't use or at the minimum teach someone else to use.. The rest of the videos that I saw are questionable. Most have never tried to swing a cane at someone or have someone actually swing one at them. A lot of crap evaporates once canes start swinging lol.
 
I rather have something that is long enough. I can always "choke up" on a stick to decrease the fighting range, But there's not much one can do about increasing maximum fighting range for a stick.


For the most part, and within limits. Long range sticks
View attachment 27845

can also be used as short range sticks

View attachment 27846


But if you only make a bat that's small enough to bunt, then you'll never hit a home run.


Retractable Baton Vs Cane: I would do this with a cane but wouldn't do this with a baton. Heck No. Clearly this guy doesn't understand the principle of the technique lol I could let my staff just fall on that and it will be over. I don't even have to swing lol. Point is, when the weapons is too short your begin to run out of certain techniques that would otherwise be effective.
View attachment 27847

I wasn't going to put the link but after watching it. But this stuff is horrible.

And it just keeps on giving lol.

If I have someone punches at me with a baton, I'm just going to smack that arm with that steel and then let him decide how many more punches he wants to throw lol. I don't know any martial that actually fights with a stick , that teaches to open the hand. Get that angle wrong that stick will slide right down and that bat will bust the skull .. Big risk. But point is. I can make the can striking length shorter but I can't make that baton striking length longer.
wow....just, wow.
 
Can you name them?
Answering my own question here, I'm pretty sure "cane" forms in Tai Chi Chuan are actually jian forms.

Makes sense to me. Tai Chi's history included anywhere between 18 and 36 different weapons, but modern practice is usually limited to the mother four: dao, jian, spear, and staff, and jian is the most translatable to a walking cane.
 
Answering my own question here, I'm pretty sure "cane" forms in Tai Chi Chuan are actually jian forms.

Makes sense to me. Tai Chi's history included anywhere between 18 and 36 different weapons, but modern practice is usually limited to the mother four: dao, jian, spear, and staff, and jian is the most translatable to a walking cane.
The look like Jian forms with the exception of where they grab the blade and use it to strike like using a cane. A lot of one hand cane strikes
 
I don't think this size difference is enough to cause any noticeable difference. The shape of the cane will probably affect your use more than the length. It probably has a larger effect on someone who needs a cane for walking than someone who doesn't needed it and oly carries it as a self defense tool.

The shape of the cane will have a much bigger effect..

This comment reminds me of the assumption that you made with Iron Palm. An heavier can or cane in general will only do enough damage if you are attacking the correct areas of the bod and using the right technique. Always have an answer for this question:

What if I miss, then what? What happens next? What if you swing at their head and miss and they person closes the gap really quick. What are you going to do then? What is your plan? If you aren't factoring what to do when your attacks don't work as you plan then you are setting yourself up for a big loss.

So far your assumptions seem to rely heavy on that "one good hit" Train what you are going to use, but have a back up plan in mind.

Here's something to get you started I guess.. It's a defense against someone who is trying to grab your cane. You just have to practice the movement that my son is doing. Step for step, don't alter it or try to fix it. Even the legs close together is important for training this movement. I'm not sure how much your wrist strap will create in correct hand placement on the cane. This should work even for cane with a curved handle. I removed the sound out of the video.

I am way behind all the posts, I need to read them after the new year as both grand kids are staying with us right now. I just want to come back to this first as I actually spent time on this, thinking about it and practice it.

Last night, my grand daughter played and swing the stick at me, we were withing 3ft(close distance). My first thinking is rush and punch her!!! I don't think of grabbing the cane at all, I just use what is natural for me( been in TKD much longer than stick fight) which is punch. I could land quite a few punches just like that. I don't even care to try to grab the cane!!

I don't think holding the cane like in your video to bait the attacker works. It only can work if the attacker tries to reach for the stick. If not, you really lock into holding the cane with hands down and open your whole upper body to be attacked.

At that close distance, I rather fight bare handed, cane seems to be a liability.

The only thing I can think of useful is holding the cane in the position to poke the attacker at the stomach or solarplex area. It is much harder to grab. Particular if the guy tries to take me down and trip me falling backwards to mount on me, he might just land on the tip of the cane and really injure himself.

Unless you have very good reason for your move, I am not going to practice this anymore.

Thanks

Happy New Year.
 
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go spar with this dude !!!

A lot of his swinging techniques are those that would be used with a staff. This is what Oily Dragon was talking about in post #49. As for the video his form looks intimidating but it's mixed with some showmanship as well. There's nothing in this video that provides enough information on if he can actually use what he's doing. The most that I can say is that he has the body mechanics that would be needed to hit someone with that cane but that's about it. If he can fight with his bow then he should be able to fight with the cane as well.

I took a look at some of the other videos on that channel and this stuff is too complicated for me.

I do like this. Tai Chi sword uses a similar concept as well. Chinese staff uses a similar concept as well.
 
I don't think holding the cane like in your video to bait the attacker works. It only can work if the attacker tries to reach for the stick. If not, you really lock into holding the cane.
The same movement in that video that I showed also works for people trying to rush in.

As someone tries to rush in like you state then do the exact same movement including that short drop. Here's what happens, provided that your hands are not at the end of the cane.

Phase one. - The person rushes in to grab your body

Phase two - As they come in. You should drop your stance and raise the cane like in the video as my son demonstrated. This moves the target area that they were trying to grab out of range and it pops the arms upward. So There's a bunch of things going on in Phase 2, but main. You are moving the target that they are trying to grab by lowering your body and by raising the cane. which lifts the arms. Because of how the cane move s upward, it will strike the bone and yes it does hurt. Felt it first hand.

Phase three: Because of what you did in Phase two, your opponent should feel like they are falling on emptiness. Like trying to lean against a wall that isn't there. They shouldn't be stable at this point. They also shouldn't be able to pull their arms down because of how the cane strikes their arms. At this point you should be under their arms and their ribs should be exposed. That's when that last strike with your arms extended comes into play.

What if scenarios:
What if you raise the cane too soon?
Still follow through. By dropping your stance your stance you have still moved the target out of the way. Now your cane is above your attackers arms. Extend you arms forward with explosive power and that cane should hit him right across the face. Which will disrupt the grab attempt giving you time to reposition out of grappling range so you can strike with the cane.

What if you raise the cane too late? There's an answer for that as well. But to be honest learn the first steps first., the movement my son is doing. You have to be good at this first thing so you can be good at the things to follow.

Last night, my grand daughter played and swing the stick at me, we were withing 3ft(close distance). My first thinking is rush and punch her!!! I don't think of grabbing the cane at all,
You probably didn't think about grabbing the cane because you were thinking about the cane smashing you in the face. Once you know that something can happen you will be less likely to do it because you know what the possibilities are. But it doesn't mean your other thoughts were invalid, because you are right not everyone is going to go for the cane., Which is why you always have to think. Well what if they don't go to grab the cane. In this case the same movement protects you against 3 possibilities. as explained above.

Again, to be honest, learn the first steps first. Learn the movement my son is doing. You have to be good at this first thing so you can be good at the things to follow. Sometimes trying to learn too much at once or learn too fast creates more harm than good to your learning.
I could land quite a few punches just like that. I don't even care to try to grab the cane!!
Your grand daughter doesn't know how to fight with a cane or a staff. so I wouldn't go on that feeling too much to define the weaknesses of using the cane, walking stick, or staff. However, What you feel may be what an attacker feels. and that felling will help you get a better understanding for the types of attacks you may get. This will help you improve your training.

At that close distance, I rather fight bare handed, cane seems to be a liability.
It will be a liability if you don't know how to use that cane to fight close range which is what I've been saying for a while now. Using a cane for a long distance is an easier concept to understand. Using it in close range, not so much. That's the weakness of the cane, walking stick, staff that Dirty Dog and I were talking about earlier on.

I wouldn't suggest dropping the cane. It's better to learn to use it in close range than to just abandon it for the sake of grappling. The reason why is because dropping the cane gives your opponent to option to push you away, pick up your cane and then beat you with your own cane. Keep in mind that you brought a self-defense cane to a fight, so it' not going to break if your opponent hits you with it.

If you want learn to fight with a cane, then understand that there's long range and close range cane fighting techniques that you'll need to develop. But most importantly don't rush your training.

If you have to spend 3 months only training that movement that my son does then that's what you'll have to do. The reason for the length of time training that one movement is so you can do it without thinking. You'll have to accept the reality that there's no short path to learning how to fight. The other thing that you need to train is the footwork, because none of this stuff will work without the footwork. Footwork is the most important thing.
 
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