Natural Stance

[Taiji Rebel]

What is your natural stance?

The martial arts train us in a variety of stances to improve our strength and balance. A lot of static poses are used to teach correct posture and body alignment for maximum power. Once we begin sparring and moving with a partner it becomes more difficult to maintain a strict stance.

Do you have a preferred stance or method when you are in motion, or do you just allow the body to fall into whatever stance comes naturally in the moment?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The 3-7 stance that you have 30% weight on your leading leg is the saftest stance.

The best way to test this stance is to use it in sparring/wrestling.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Stance used in Chinese wrestling.

 

[skribs]

Stances in sparring are not static. You should be adjusting your stance based on angle, range, and your current gameplan. For example, Mike Tyson has more of a front stance when boxing at range, and a horse stance when boxing up close. In Muay Thai class, we have a very high stance as our "standard", but we also step in, out, or sometimes even across depending on the combination we're doing.

You should also be doing lots of microadjustments and small movements to make it difficult for your opponent to spot when you start moving. If you have a good rhythm, you're not going to always be in a textbook picture perfect stance, but you're going to be moving in and out of one to create that movement that allows for faster, more deceptive shots.

That's not to say that form isn't important. But what is important is to learn the difference between good and bad form, and good and bad technique. Good form is what helps us as a beginner to have a strong foundation for good technique. Good form looks good in still pictures, and has good balance and posture. Bad form is anything which deviates from the textbook image.

Good technique is technique that works. In the case of stances it's what allows you to be balanced, protected, and have explosive movement options in the directions you think you will need. Bad technique (in stances) is when you are off balance, unprotected, only able to deliver weak shots, or unable to quickly move due to being too high, too low, or having your weight too far in the wrong direction.

Jesse Enkamp did a great video on this subject.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The trick is to have a ton of different stances you always transition through.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Stances in sparring are not static. You should be adjusting your stance based on angle, range, and your current gameplan. For example, Mike Tyson has more of a front stance when boxing at range, and a horse stance when boxing up close. In Muay Thai class, we have a very high stance as our "standard", but we also step in, out, or sometimes even across depending on the combination we're doing.

You should also be doing lots of microadjustments and small movements to make it difficult for your opponent to spot when you start moving. If you have a good rhythm, you're not going to always be in a textbook picture perfect stance, but you're going to be moving in and out of one to create that movement that allows for faster, more deceptive shots.

That's not to say that form isn't important. But what is important is to learn the difference between good and bad form, and good and bad technique. Good form is what helps us as a beginner to have a strong foundation for good technique. Good form looks good in still pictures, and has good balance and posture. Bad form is anything which deviates from the textbook image.

Good technique is technique that works. In the case of stances it's what allows you to be balanced, protected, and have explosive movement options in the directions you think you will need. Bad technique (in stances) is when you are off balance, unprotected, only able to deliver weak shots, or unable to quickly move due to being too high, too low, or having your weight too far in the wrong direction.

Jesse Enkamp did a great video on this subject.

Yes, I agree with you. Mike Tyson is an interesting study in fighting. Fixed forms and stances are necessary for learning body dynamics in combat sports and playfighting. Self-defense scenarios are a different matter altogether. One thing which intrigues me is the low/deep stances you see in traditional karate styles like Shotokan for example. I have often wondered why the stances are so low. Now, people often say these help to develop strength in the legs, but so do squats and deadlifts. In boxing we trained using the stances and footwork that replicate the kind you would find in a match. When Karateka spar and fight in matches, their stances are nowhere near as low as those in training which has always struck me as rather strange.

 

[skribs]

Now, people often say these help to develop strength in the legs, but so do squats and deadlifts.

Yeah, but forms are more fun!

They do so in a different way than squats and deadlifts. They are also working on our sense of space and balance. They're also working on flexibility to some degree, which you're not working with squats and deadlifts. My TKD Master would say that if you start in a tall stance, you can only go down. If you start in a medium stance, you can go down or up. This gives you more options.

Another thing my Master would say is that we train to kick above the head, because when you're tired in a match, you'll kick the body. Same thing with the stances. Training with a lower stance means the higher stances in practice are easier.

Forms are also often exaggerated for aesthetic appeal. Not everyone thinks it looks good, but that's true of all art.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Forms are also often exaggerated for aesthetic appeal. Not everyone thinks it looks good, but that's true of all art

Are you implying the low stances of Shotokan are more for show than application? Just curious because I wonder if this is the case, because I have begun to think about it again recently - training so low idoes not make sense to my way of thinking.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

The trick is to have a ton of different stances you always transition through.

This makes sense. Unel Wellington taught us the forms were more like templates. Snapshots of action moves, frozen in time for assisting us in learning the moves.

 

[skribs]

Are you implying the low stances of Shotokan are more for show than application? Just curious because I wonder if this is the case, because I have begun to think about it again recently - training so low idoes not make sense to my way of thinking.

As much for show as application? I haven't trained Shotokan, although TKD forms are very similar to Shotokan forms, I believe our methods of training them are different.

Lower stances really help with the grappling elements, if you subscribe to the theory that the forms are actually teaching grappling moves. But I do go back to strength & conditioning, which I believe the forms are doing as well, which is a third thing between show and application.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This makes sense. Unel Wellington taught us the forms were more like templates. Snapshots of action moves, frozen in time for assisting us in learning the moves.

I've been taught a lot of different reasons for stances, and forms, including this one. It's the one that makes the most sense to me, when you actually try to use them in sparring.

 

[Flying Crane]

Are you implying the low stances of Shotokan are more for show than application? Just curious because I wonder if this is the case, because I have begun to think about it again recently - training so low idoes not make sense to my way of thinking.

I cannot speak to shotokan as I have never trained it.

However, in my experience a lot of movement is exaggerated in training because it helps the body understand the movement and connect the full-body movement which is more powerful than say, punching with the strength of the arm and shoulder alone. It is a training mechanism used to develop and understand that movement and connection. Once you understand it, you do not need to use that big movement when fighting, you can still generate that full- body power with smaller movement. The fact that the big movement is often aesthetically pleasing is coincidental and not the point of the big movement.

I suppose deep stances in shotokan could be for the same purpose.

 

[Holmejr]

Simple balanced triangle, knees bent, back heal slightly raised. 50/50 weight distribution. Allow for quick all angle movement.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The trick is to have a ton of different stances you always transition through.

You know, this is also the basis of learning how to swim.

This weekend at the breach, I met a young kid who was never taught how to swim.

He lumbered around as you might expect. Sat on the beach, watching all the other kids fight the waves and act like fish in total bliss.

He hasn't found his whale-nature yet.

 

[Buka]

Whatever stance my body decides to set for itself, I'll go with that flow.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

My buddy Mark suggested reading the following article by Iain Abernethy.

My Stance on Stances | Iain Abernethy

iainabernethy.co.uk

As we have discussed, the word “stance” has connotations of something fixed and immovable. In combat, however, situations are constantly changing and hence the stances should also be in a state of flux. The distribution of the bodyweight should not be fixed, but should be constantly changing depending upon the technique being utilised at that time. Stances will be assumed as and when required, before instantly shifting the bodyweight to the next appropriate position - Iain Abernethy

 

[HighKick]

Yes, I agree with you. Mike Tyson is an interesting study in fighting. Fixed forms and stances are necessary for learning body dynamics in combat sports and playfighting. Self-defense scenarios are a different matter altogether. One thing which intrigues me is the low/deep stances you see in traditional karate styles like Shotokan for example. I have often wondered why the stances are so low. Now, people often say these help to develop strength in the legs, but so do squats and deadlifts. In boxing we trained using the stances and footwork that replicate the kind you would find in a match. When Karateka spar and fight in matches, their stances are nowhere near as low as those in training which has always struck me as rather strange.

On rebuttal I often use to a comment like "but so do squats and deadlifts" is how the dynamic elements before and after the deep stance help you. Not only are you strengthening, you are also learning how to use that strength.
There is much more strength training in traditional forms than most people give credit to. Done correctly, you could skip half or more of the gym workout.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

On rebuttal I often use to a comment like "but so do squats and deadlifts" is how the dynamic elements before and after the deep stance help you. Not only are you strengthening, you are also learning how to use that strength.
There is much more strength training in traditional forms than most people give credit to. Done correctly, you could skip half or more of the gym workout.

There are many different approaches one can take. The old Karate practitioners used weight-training methods during their training and exercise sessions. In boxing gyms we spent a great deal of time building all around strength and endurance using various tools and exercises. By comparison the traditional martial arts dojos I have trained in spent very little time using complimentary methods to improve strength and conditioning. It is easy to fool ourselves into thinking we need nothing more than what we are offered in our dojos. For the most part, traditional martial arts instructors have no understanding of the skills and drills used by strength and conditioning coaches - extra-curricular training can definitely benefit us as martial artists 💪

However, putting all of that aside, I am still quite perplexed by the low and deep stances I have seen in Shotokan and similar forms of Karate

 

[isshinryuronin]

As we have discussed, the word “stance” has connotations of something fixed and immovable. In combat, however, situations are constantly changing and hence the stances should also be in a state of flux. The distribution of the bodyweight should not be fixed, but should be constantly changing depending upon the technique being utilised at that time. Stances will be assumed as and when required, before instantly shifting the bodyweight to the next appropriate position - Iain Abernethy

This is as good a short statement on stances as you're likely to find.

However, putting all of that aside, I am still quite perplexed by the low and deep stances I have seen in Shotokan and similar forms of Karate

Well, for one, they look good - important in the sport centered world of Shotokan's evolution where the way it looks is stressed more than practicality.

Secondly, the deepness in not only the stance, but in the execution of punches, is indicative of early/mid Shotokan karate philosophy: Perfection and total commitment of technique - "One strike, one kill." This is similar to the way of the Japanese sword.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My buddy Mark suggested reading the following article by Iain Abernethy.

My Stance on Stances | Iain Abernethy

iainabernethy.co.uk

As we have discussed, the word “stance” has connotations of something fixed and immovable. In combat, however, situations are constantly changing and hence the stances should also be in a state of flux. The distribution of the bodyweight should not be fixed, but should be constantly changing depending upon the technique being utilised at that time. Stances will be assumed as and when required, before instantly shifting the bodyweight to the next appropriate position - Iain Abernethy

Sure but the transition from stance to stance is where the magic is. For example, Tai Chi Chuan is not about stance it’s about transitioning correctly, this is why most people can’t use it at all. It’s not enough to know the choreography, the transition is where the rubber meets the road.