name that form

[oxy]

In economics, one of the most important things you need to do is to choose the right indicator and then being able to correctly interpret that indicator by understanding what such an indicator entails.

One way to check how an economy is doing is to check its inflation rate. If you want to check the state of inflation in the economy, you choose the inflation rate. You do not care for corporate tax rates. You may supplement the data with unemployment rates.

But then, you have to understand how inflation rates are calculated and what their pitfalls are. You sample a basket of goods and compare them to a similar one from previous years. Sometimes, you have to change that basket of goods. For example, if there is a spike in one quarter in the price of fuel, but it only lasts, say a week (INAE so I don't know exactly the time frame in which it can be disregarded) you wouldn't include that in because it will unnecessarily skew the inflation rate and you would make incorrect assessments. However, you might need to include in fuel if the price spike lasts, say a month (INAE). Such a long spike is bound to increase inflation since an economy needs fuel. This kind of reason is also why the financial year ends at June/July. Festivities also skew inflation calculations unjustifiably.

Many economic forecasts have the inflation rate (quarterly or annually) as a major factor in the equation. Thus, it is crucial to know how to choose the correct indicator/basket-o-goods. Such is its importance in making good and fair judgements.

No one here asking for a boycott, so far, has made a good case for their choice of indicator. I'm quite sure no one here actually knows how to interpret that indicator either (=> does not know how its "calculated" or its pitfalls).

The reactionary and unjustified exclusive use of such an indicator is just as bad as the teacher who refuses to teach names to prevent people from reaching teaching levels.

If a teacher who allegedly prevents students from reaching teaching heights should be boycotted in such an uninformed manner, then I would say everyone here who had a teacher who have suggested that other teachers should be abandoned for that reason should also be abandoned themselves. They're not teaching their students how to evaluate things PROPERLY. How can we know that the teacher's own knowledge is a result of careful evaluation of their art and themselves? Neither teacher is worth going to.

 

[dmax999]

Tigdra posted a question about Northern Eagle Claw from Ying Jow Pai, an association my school is affiliated with. I assume Tigdra was going there, and from the hints it sounded like Tan Tui, which are our beginning forms that are very short with repititon.

There are not seperate names for the Tan Tui parts, at least that I know of, and I'm not sure calling the form Tan Tui is actually correct. Its the name of the style and the form has no seperate name I know of. You all may be blowing something minor out of porportion. We don't know all the information and I was just trying to answer the question without throwing people, who I don't even know their name, under the bus.

But we are all free to have our own opinions. I know I do!

 

[oxy]

Tigdra posted a question about Northern Eagle Claw from Ying Jow Pai, an association my school is affiliated with.

...

You all may be blowing something minor out of porportion. We don't know all the information and I was just trying to answer the question without throwing people, who I don't even know their name, under the bus.

My sentiments exactly.

A very simple question was asked at the beginning of this thread. I don't think he was asking for life advice. Life advice is easy to give and is cheap and there's no liability to the giver.

 

[East Winds]

Much like the unwanted and irrrelevant potted lecture on high school economics. You forgot to factor in the law of diminishing returns!!!

Very best wishes

 

[oxy]

Much like the unwanted and irrrelevant potted lecture on high school economics. You forgot to factor in the law of diminishing returns!!!

Very best wishes

I think it's very relevant to the discussion, since I have been, time and time again, trying to point out (and what dmax999 also did in his recent post) that
there is no solid reason for the reactionary responses to sketchy facts. Not to mention that economic advice, just like life advice, is really easy to give. It is very cheap to give. And the person who gives the advice can cowardly hide behind the fact that they cannot be held liable for their advice.

The difference is that economics have proven the importance of inflation and interest rate figures while no one here even as a rational argument to support their call for the defamation and boycott of someone that is only known by the starter of this thread based on unreasonable criteria and slippery slope fallacies.

By the way, the law of diminishing returns is mainly concerned with microeconomics. I don't have a good idea of what its extent of relevance to macroeconomics (of which inflation is king or at least co-ruler of the round table) is, but isn't much (as it varies from organisation to organisation).

 

[Jade Tigress]

Mod. Note.

Please, return to the original topic.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Moderator

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Much like the unwanted and irrrelevant potted lecture on high school economics. You forgot to factor in the law of diminishing returns!!!

Very best wishes

Touche! Well said.

 

[oxy]

Touche! Well said.

The original topic was whether we can name the form described above. So I'll be keeping with the main topic and say "no, I don't".

It seems you haven't read the posts following the one you replied to. So will you stay on topic (or at least read the arguments that were put forth), or will you remain among those who give irrational and irrelevant-to-the-topic life advice simply because you can and you can hide behind the anonymity and non-liability of the 'net?

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The original topic was whether we can name the form described above. So I'll be keeping with the main topic and say "no, I don't".

It seems you haven't read the posts following the one you replied to. So will you stay on topic (or at least read the arguments that were put forth), or will you remain among those who give irrational and irrelevant-to-the-topic life advice simply because you can and you can hide behind the anonymity and non-liability of the 'net?

Seems like you're the one not reading what you're replying to. My advice to you all about this guy Oxy,:feedtroll

'Nuff Said.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry I’m VERY late :asian:

I just read through this post and the discussion going on and I really do not wish to get involved in it I leave that to those already engaged.

my instructor has a habit of not telling us the names of the forms we are learning can anyone tell me the name of the form I am describing.

1st form very basic seen other school do it almost identically. I will discribe the form without the stances like gong bu, etc.

Start salutation
1. step to left, face forward and cross both hands right over left in front of groin area
2. lift arms up to face level (still crossing hands) fists are at head area and elbows pointing upwards.
3. open arms out shoulder hidth in a vertival (sun) punch position to both sides
4. left arm comes into chamber as you turn your body towards the left as you right arm swings towards the left wall in a veritcal punch
5. execute a right heel front kick towards same wall while simultaneously executing a left vertical punch
6. land forward (towards the wall you kick to) as you execute a right veritcal punch.
7. now facing what was the rear wall (opposite one that you did you sallutation) repeat steps 1-6 on opposite side (low cross block, bring hands up and open out, left punch, left kick and right punch, land forwards left punch)

I would really appreciate if someone could tell me the name of the form and what type of style teaches this form. I know that northern shaolin teaches these forms but it would be great if I had the name.

I would be happy to explain more of the form if anyone needs more details.

To answer the original question.

I am really not sure what the form you described is, but it does have similarities to a Long Fist form I use to do. But I do not think it is long fist from the description

As to form names, and I know this has already been said, but I do not think it is necessary for a student to know the names of every single posture of a form should the student choose not to know them. However I do feel it is very important that the teacher know the names should the student decide they want to know what the names are. If a teacher does not know the names of the forms it is first very difficult to talk to others about it and second in my opinion takes away form the form, it waters it down a bit. In Tai Chi White crane spreads its wings becomes that form where you kind of put most of your weight on the back leg and one hand is above your head while the other is below your waist. Or a teacher may decide it is easier to actually give the form he/she does not know a name so he/she can tell the students what to do more easily and what is to stop the teacher from calling it something like Billy or that one legged thingy. If that were the case would it still be Tai Chi?

I will also add I am very much a traditionalist when it comes to CMA so I personally feel that it is important to tell the student the names of the forms. Back when I use to teach I use to give out a sheet with the individual posture names on it for my students. However I did not require my them to know them unless they wanted to, there was no pop quiz.

This has also already been said but not form the US point of view..Just my 2 cents.

 

[oxy]

Seems like you're the one not reading what you're replying to. My advice to you all about this guy Oxy,:feedtroll

'Nuff Said.

Let's go through the posts you've made so far:

That kind of answer and I would say "See ya!" In my opinion, if he can't tell you what it is, or can't be bothered telling you, he doesn't know what it is either.

Nothing substantial.

Then he shouldn't have any students. How can you teach someone without telling them what it is they're doing? Do medical schools show students how to dissect a colon without telling them the name of what they are doing?

Again, like above, nothing substantial. So far, just a bunch of logical fallacies packed into two posts which draw irrational conclusions and comparisons.

This is a joke right?

Looks like a troll post to me. Like above, nothing substantial, so you try to hide it by shifting the spotlight onto my post.

I see, you're ego is bruised. I asked a legitimate question. While others have asked their questions, I"ve asked mine, short and to the point.

Again, shifting the spotlight to hide the fact that nothing you have said has anything substantial to contribute. At least the others do go into detail. You haven't. Looks like trolling to me.

Touche! Well said.

And here, you've regressed to playing cheerleader. In my experience of many forums, this is typical behaviour of you-know-whats. Nothing useful to add, so you hitch onto others instead of actually making discussion. Others have tried. You still haven't.

You should read the guy below you, since you don't understand what a post has to be to be a substantial contribution to discussion.

 

[oxy]

As to form names, and I know this has already been said, but I do not think it is necessary for a student to know the names of every single posture of a form should the student choose not to know them. However I do feel it is very important that the teacher know the names should the student decide they want to know what the names are. If a teacher does not know the names of the forms it is first very difficult to talk to others about it and second in my opinion takes away form the form, it waters it down a bit. In Tai Chi White crane spreads its wings becomes that form where you kind of put most of your weight on the back leg and one hand is above your head while the other is below your waist. Or a teacher may decide it is easier to actually give the form he/she does not know a name so he/she can tell the students what to do more easily and what is to stop the teacher from calling it something like Billy or that one legged thingy. If that were the case would it still be Tai Chi?

I agree that is a problem. But I am just skeptical about the scope of that problem. Can anyone carry on a whole martial arts discussion without reverting to actually showing the action? In my limited teaching experience, it's impossible to carry on a whole lesson by using the names of the actions. And it was also faster just to show them.

I have also had enough time to sample many internet discussions about martial arts, whether it is between different arts or within the same art. The ones that you can learn things from have almost no mention of any names other than generic ones that has sort of entered into public domain.

I don't know the names of the individual actions of LHBF. My method is to just do the action. And they remember where it is from and the stuff associated with it. I think I actually have called something the "one legged thingy" before. As I have said before, I think proper conveying of the philosophy of the art defines the art much better than passing on the names. So, personally, I would say yes, it will still be Taiji if you called something a "one legged thingy" if you dedicate a lot of effort to passing on the philosophy of the art.

---------------------------------

The thing is, my main objection is to the reactions of people. Drawing erroneous conclusions from a simple thing as not giving the names is very unsettling. It's unsettling, but not surprising though, because we have people learning martial arts who do not even have the capacity to make logical and rational evaluation. Martial arts is not just about the body. It's also about the mind.

Some opinions expressed are along the lines of: "If a teacher doesn't give the names, the teacher doesn't know the art" or "the teacher is an *******".

My father's LHBF teacher only made it as far as 4th grade before the economic effects of WWII forced him to quit school and go into the workforce. As far as I know, his teaching methods don't concern the names of the forms much. His vocabulary (we are talking about the Chinese language here), or rather lack of, makes the knowledge of form names rather distracting. He did learn enough Chinese to write prescriptions of very common remedies to martial arts related injuries, but that was it. Can then anyone conclude that this martial arts teacher is not worth going to because he did not know the names? Can anyone conclude that he's doing a disservice to the founders?

Therefore, is it responsible for anyone to conclude, based on ONE point of evidence, anything that resembles the responses in this thread?

 

[Xue Sheng]

"If a teacher doesn't give the names, the teacher doesn't know the art" or "the teacher is an *******".

Nope, I never said this nor would I.

My father's LHBF teacher only made it as far as 4th grade before the economic effects of WWII forced him to quit school and go into the workforce. As far as I know, his teaching methods don't concern the names of the forms much. His vocabulary (we are talking about the Chinese language here), or rather lack of, makes the knowledge of form names rather distracting. He did learn enough Chinese to write prescriptions of very common remedies to martial arts related injuries, but that was it. Can then anyone conclude that this martial arts teacher is not worth going to because he did not know the names? Can anyone conclude that he's doing a disservice to the founders?

Therefore, is it responsible for anyone to conclude, based on ONE point of evidence, anything that resembles the responses in this thread?

You miss understand what I am saying here and I have no wish to argue. I am not making a judgment call as to anyone’s teaching ability based on the lack of names. I am saying I am a traditionalist and I do feel the names are important to the integrity of the art and I bleieve this because I am a traditionalist when it comes to CMA.
If a teacher does not know the names does not mean he or she is a good or bad teacher. If that where the case there are an awful lot of people out there teaching Tai Chi that in my opinion know nothing that could be considered good because they know the names of the postures.

I personally think the names are important and when I use to teach and if I teach again I will teach them that is all.

Your LHBF and that of your fathers could be absolutely amazing and not knowing the names does not change that. But I personally feel that knowing the names for the forms, particularly for a Chinese style only adds to the form. Most names of Chinese forms are metaphors and if research those metaphors it can make the forms easier to understand. But with that being said I did not nor would I teach the associated metaphor.

Your teaching style is your teaching style that is all and mine is mine we do not agree about the important of names, so what big deal who cares is that going to make you or I change our style, not likely. So I will end with enjoy the training.

 

[oxy]

Nope, I never said this nor would I.



You miss understand what I am saying here and I have no wish to argue. I am not making a judgment call as to anyone’s teaching ability based on the lack of names. I am saying I am a traditionalist and I do feel the names are important to the integrity of the art and I bleieve this because I am a traditionalist when it comes to CMA.
If a teacher does not know the names does not mean he or she is a good or bad teacher. If that where the case there are an awful lot of people out there teaching Tai Chi that in my opinion know nothing that could be considered good because they know the names of the postures.

I personally think the names are important and when I use to teach and if I teach again I will teach them that is all.

Your LHBF and that of your fathers could be absolutely amazing and not knowing the names does not change that. But I personally feel that knowing the names for the forms, particularly for a Chinese style only adds to the form. Most names of Chinese forms are metaphors and if research those metaphors it can make the forms easier to understand. But with that being said I did not nor would I teach the associated metaphor.

Your teaching style is your teaching style that is all and mine is mine we do not agree about the important of names, so what big deal who cares is that going to make you or I change our style, not likely. So I will end with enjoy the training.

Sorry, none of the comments I made underneath the dotted line were suppposed to be addressed to you. I was talking about the issue in general at that point and to other people. So I wasn't criticising your post with those comments in any way. Just the overall attitude of this whole thread (if you've been through the whole thread, you might see what I was ranting on about).

 

[MJS]

Mod Note:

Please, return to the original topic. Please feel free to use the ignore feature for posts that you do not wish to read. It can be found on every users profile. In addition, please use the RTM (Report To Mod) feature, to address problem posts. Its the little red triangle that can be found in the upper right hand corner of every post. It is much better to use that, than continuing to engage in heated posts, with someone you're having a problem with.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry, none of the comments I made underneath the dotted line were suppposed to be addressed to you. I was talking about the issue in general at that point and to other people. So I wasn't criticising your post with those comments in any way. Just the overall attitude of this whole thread (if you've been through the whole thread, you might see what I was ranting on about).

No problem oxy.

But back to the post

I do have a question for anyone on MT that has done long fist, does the described form sound like to you?

I have limited experience in long fist and it was a long time ago. But my take on the form described is up to step 5 it sounds very much like long fist but if I remember correctly there was a back kick done where step 6 is at. And from that point I remember little except the occasional cart wheel. Also my teacher was a Wushu guy so it may not be exactly the same as a traditional long fist form.

tigdra

Where there any cartwheels (no handed) later in the form?

 

[funnytiger]

The thing is, my main objection is to the reactions of people. Drawing erroneous conclusions from a simple thing as not giving the names is very unsettling. It's unsettling, but not surprising though, because we have people learning martial arts who do not even have the capacity to make logical and rational evaluation. Martial arts is not just about the body. It's also about the mind.

Some opinions expressed are along the lines of: "If a teacher doesn't give the names, the teacher doesn't know the art" or "the teacher is an *******".

My father's LHBF teacher only made it as far as 4th grade before the economic effects of WWII forced him to quit school and go into the workforce. As far as I know, his teaching methods don't concern the names of the forms much. His vocabulary (we are talking about the Chinese language here), or rather lack of, makes the knowledge of form names rather distracting. He did learn enough Chinese to write prescriptions of very common remedies to martial arts related injuries, but that was it. Can then anyone conclude that this martial arts teacher is not worth going to because he did not know the names? Can anyone conclude that he's doing a disservice to the founders?

Therefore, is it responsible for anyone to conclude, based on ONE point of evidence, anything that resembles the responses in this thread?

Based on what the OP said about the teachers refusal to divulge the names of the forms I don't think anyone was completely out of line to assume that he didn't know the names of the forms. My point being, some of these conclusions may seem severe to you, but some people (including myself) find it extremely unsettling that a teacher would refuse to divulge information. And for what? For fear that the students might become teachers themselves??

So based on what the OP presented I think the advice to "flee" was warranted and not at all exagerrated on anyone's part.

-----------------------

BTW, why the hell does this post keep getting all these damned "mod notes"? I'm not sure if at any point this topic has needed any kind of moderation. Its been a little heated, but that's what happens on message boards...

 

[shesulsa]

BTW, why the hell does this post keep getting all these damned "mod notes"? I'm not sure if at any point this topic has needed any kind of moderation. Its been a little heated, but that's what happens on message boards...

Funnytiger, these in-thread warnings are because the discussion in this thread has gone off-topic and because some members posting on this thread are not abiding by our TOS and posting policies. MT runs a bit differently that many martial arts discussion boards. If you have any more questions regarding our moderation policy or our Terms of Service, please feel free to post them in the Support Forum.

 

[funnytiger]

Funnytiger, these in-thread warnings are because the discussion in this thread has gone off-topic and because some members posting on this thread are not abiding by our TOS and posting policies. MT runs a bit differently that many martial arts discussion boards. If you have any more questions regarding our moderation policy or our Terms of Service, please feel free to post them in the Support Forum.

To be honest, it was more of a rhetorical question, but thanks for the reply anyways.

 

[tigdra]

thank you everyone for trying to figure out the form. I have found a video and names of the forms. Just in case the name of the form is

Bak sui mui fa Kuen

Little plum blossom form



Man what one little question escalades too... relax gentlemen