Mystry Kata by woman?

[_Simon_]

Great thoughts @isshinryuronin and @hoshin1600 .

I’m not trying to critisis, but rather understand. Goju- and Uechi Ryu have a long and noble history but for me, this extended training time spent in ‘body toughening‘ to produce ‘organic armour’ doesn‘t make sense, especially when that training time could be used to hone avoidance and blocking skills! For me, it’s akin to the myth that tamashiwara was developed to punch through wooden chest armour, or that flying kicks were designed to knock down mounted warriors!

Yeah for sure the ideal situation is to avoid attacks through blocking/deflecting/evading etc, but it isn't realistic and not guaranteed in terms of "a fight" situation. I now think that conditioning and the ability to be hit isn't just important, but crucial in relation to fighting. I don't necessarily think it needs to be all the time and as full on and prolonged as some clubs do it, but you won't be able defend or avoid everything, and probably will get hit. I'd say the benefits are more psychological, to feel the heavy impact and not crumble.

Like I said, it doesn't need to be excessive, but I feel it's more a mental thing.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I thought of a few other clarifications and distinctions on the subject recently discussed.

I'm not positive, but I think the main goal of iron shirt is to protect the body, in other words, to provide a defense against attack. (CMA guys can correct if I'm wrong here) Koteki tai, however, is done more for offense to harden the shin, forearms and hands to be used as weapons. There are strikes to abs, thighs, and chest as well, so there is an element of iron shirt involved. I've seen video of Chinese training in "iron balls," making the testicles kick proof but luckily, I've found other methods to protect this area.

As demo'd in the sanchin video, when the sensei was striking that young woman, it was not primarily to show her "iron shirt" capability, but to test her muscle tension and stability (physical and mental).

 

[punisher73]

Chinkuchi is only partially involved in sanchin kata, and less so in other katas. (see next quote for explanation.)

This is a better statement of chinkuchi, the definitive phrase being "at the moment of impact." It is the total delivery of power combining muscle, speed, biomechanics, alignment and breath at that moment. Sanchin is mainly devoted to developing a rooted stance to the ground and overall stability while force is transmitted horizontally to the opponent.

The reason chinkuchi is not a big part of sanchin is that there is no speed (except in some of the Uechi-ryu moves) and the impact is not the main concern, rather what's happening on the way to impact.

I just reread my post, I should have elaborated more on chinkuchi. Sanchin is used to develop chinkuchi, but chinkuchi is not Sanchin. It also depends on whom you have learned from. AJ Advincula teaches that Sanchin is the main tool for the development of chinkuchi. It is the dynamic tension that builds the concept and understanding of chinkuchi and encompasses different concepts.

I have come across other teachers who teach chinkuchi as the Japanese equivalent of "kime" and just focus on everything "tight" at the moment of impact.

MSISSHINRYU.COM | Robert Safreed: The Mystery of Chinkuchi

 

[punisher73]

I thought of a few other clarifications and distinctions on the subject recently discussed.

I'm not positive, but I think the main goal of iron shirt is to protect the body, in other words, to provide a defense against attack. (CMA guys can correct if I'm wrong here) Koteki tai, however, is done more for offense to harden the shin, forearms and hands to be used as weapons. There are strikes to abs, thighs, and chest as well, so there is an element of iron shirt involved. I've seen video of Chinese training in "iron balls," making the testicles kick proof but luckily, I've found other methods to protect this area.

As demo'd in the sanchin video, when the sensei was striking that young woman, it was not primarily to show her "iron shirt" capability, but to test her muscle tension and stability (physical and mental).

That is my understanding also.

In Kung Fu, what we would call "Kotekitai" would still fall under the umbrella of "iron skills". For example, the forearm conditioning we do would be referred to as "Iron Arm Kung Fu", but the goal would be the same.

In Kung Fu, ever area that is trained with a specific focus is its own "kung fu". As you pointed out, conditioning the groin is referred to as "Iron Crotch" Kung Fu. Training the head is "Iron Head"....well you get the idea. lol

I also agree that in proper Sanchin testing, it is meant to test a person's structure/tension etc. and is not to see how much punishment that they can take. I have seen many people turn Sanchin testing into just an "iron shirt" test with seeing how hard they can punch the person in the abdomen and other body parts.

 

[Gyakuto]

If I recall correctly, Funakoshi Gichin write in ‘Karate-Do: My Way of Life’ that he noticed that Karate practitioners who studied the harder ‘Nahate’ styles had shorter lifespans than those who practised the ‘Shurite’ schools and he put this down to the tension and forced breathing techniques of the former. I’ll have to search through my copy to be sure this is the source. It sounds unlikely…after all, what did Funakoshi know about epidemiology?

But there is this. I wish the ‘book’ to which they refer was mentioned by name somewhere in the thread.

Karate and Shortened lifespan?

Anyone ever hear anything about this study? Thoughts? I can MAYBE see a chronic inflammatory state from hours of constant daily Okinawan body conditioning/hardening that the Masters of old COULD perhaps contribute to some maladies...but geez!

www.martialtalk.com

 

[isshinryuronin]

You focus your punch in front of the opponents body instead of inside their body!

This is "kime," sometimes referred to as "focus." It's concerned with keeping the punch relaxed until its stopping point when the muscles tense, stopping the punch where you want which, IMO, can be not only before contact with the body, but after as well with penetration.
."

I have come across other teachers who teach chinkuchi as the Japanese equivalent of "kime" and just focus on everything "tight" at the moment of impact.

They are related a bit, but two different concepts. Kime is stopping the strike whereas chinkuchi is more about the process of developing power during the strike, culminating and delivered at the kime point. I think this is the best short explanation.

 

[punisher73]

This is "kime," sometimes referred to as "focus." It's concerned with keeping the punch relaxed until its stopping point when the muscles tense, stopping the punch where you want which, IMO, can be not only before contact with the body, but after as well with penetration.
."

They are related a bit, but two different concepts. Kime is stopping the strike whereas chinkuchi is more about the process of developing power during the strike, culminating and delivered at the kime point. I think this is the best short explanation.

Yes, I linked to an article from the AJ Advincula lineage that goes more in depth to the other ideas that they teach are linked to chinkuchi. I am not disagreeing with you, just showing where I got the ideas.

 

[punisher73]

This is very rare in isshinryu and NOT representative of the style. T. Shimabuku, A. Uezu, T. Uechi, H. Long, M. Calandra, C. Ewing and all other masters of the style (including Sherman Harrill) I've seen in video or in person use the twist punch in sanchin. (I've never seen K. Shimabuku do this kata in video or during his visit to my sensei's dojo, although Calandra studied with him and he uses twist punch). The only one I've seen using the vertical fist is A. Advicula so this must be considered the exception.

I suspect Shimabuku experimented with adapting the punch to the isshinryu style of punching but soon abandoned the idea thinking for this particular kata, the corkscrew punch worked best. Advicula apparently learned this form during the very short time master Shimabuku did it this way sometime in the mid/late 50's.

My curiosity bug was piqued and the differences between the vertical and horizontal punch usage. Doesn't really effect anything, I'm just really like history.

It seems that the vast majority of lineage do use the horizontal punch now in Sanchin kata. The only main two I could find that still use the vertical punch was Harry G. Smith (one of the very first American students) and AJ Advincula. In his book on Sanchin kata, Smith does make a comment about the "Armstrong Tapes" from 1966 that many people changed how they did their kata to match the videos and that it wasn't how he was taught by Tatsuo Shimabuku.

So, it seems that the early version of Sanchin Kata used the vertical punch (Harry G. Smith). Later, it was changed to the horizontal punch, although Tatsuo Shimabuku allowed either punch, most students kept/used the horizontal punch. AJ Advincula chose to keep the vertical punch based on Shimabuku saying that he felt it was a more natural punch when Advincula asked about which punch to use in the kata.

 

[opr1945]

The woman in the original video is, apparently, not that uncommon.

4 more.

 

[HighKick]

The woman in the original video is, apparently, not that uncommon.

4 more.

I can see it being a regional/environmental thing. Just something I don't ever remember doing in a group setting like that. Alone? Sure.
Just seems ripe for taking away focus. IMHO

 

[Gyakuto]

Is anyone else slightly triggered by the incorrect spelling of ‘mystery’ in the title of this thread? I’m wondering if it’s the American spelling 🤔 Or maybe I’ve been speggling it rongally all these ears? 😳

More chocolate eggs, please….🥚🤢

 

[HighKick]

Is anyone else slightly triggered by the incorrect spelling of ‘mystery’ in the title of this thread? I’m wondering if it’s the American spelling 🤔 Or maybe I’ve been speggling it rongally all these ears? 😳

More chocolate eggs, please….🥚🤢

Phone shorthand.

 

[gyoja]

Is anyone else slightly triggered by the incorrect spelling of ‘mystery’ in the title of this thread? I’m wondering if it’s the American spelling 🤔 Or maybe I’ve been speggling it rongally all these ears? 😳

More chocolate eggs, please….🥚🤢

Waht arr u takling aboot?

 

[Gyakuto]

Waht arr u takling aboot?

I miss Gary Coleman…🥲

 

[HighKick]

I miss Gary Coleman…🥲

Willis!!!

 

[opr1945]

Actually, It is not my spelling it is my typing. Sometimes I hit the wrong key, others I don't hit the key hard enough and the letter is omittttted. And some times it is my spelling.

I haven't figured out how to edit a post once it is up. If you could enlighten me I would appreciate it very much. Thanks.

 

[Gyakuto]

Actually, It is not my spelling it is my typing.

I used to have a friend (RIP) who, when told to wash his stinking feet after a day at work, would protest that “…it’s not my feet that smell, it’s my socks” 😄

I haven't figured out how to edit a post once it is up. If you could enlighten me I would appreciate it very much. Thanks.

You have to be a ‘supporting member’ etc (make a specified donation toward the running of this board) to have the privilege of an edit button. However, I don’t thing you can edit the thread title with that edit button.

 

[HighKick]

Actually, It is not my spelling it is my typing. Sometimes I hit the wrong key, others I don't hit the key hard enough and the letter is omittttted. And some times it is my spelling.

I haven't figured out how to edit a post once it is up. If you could enlighten me I would appreciate it very much. Thanks.

I forget how long the site gives you, but unless you are a paying member the time to edit a post is fairly short.