Mystic Guidebook

[tichok]

OK. So, you only speak to people in West who are Westerners and who practice "Systema" there. OK. By the way, "Systema" is generic name for Russian-Style. There are many Systemi Russian-Style.

In Russia, in Russian-Style, the answer is Yes. We are no ashamed to admit it like foriegners. That much is obviously.

 

[Jay Bell]

Am I the only one here hearing a "Nyah-nyah" type of attitude in tichok's posts?

Tichok,

I'm failing to understand where you feel this is getting you. Many people, seasoned vets of Systema, have posted about the language misunderstanding between psychic and psychological. Hoping for something mystical in search of some 'master on the mountain' type of outlook doesn't make it true.

Personally, I'll accept my experiances and those of Rob, Futry, Paul, Vlad and Mikhail over someone seemingly so bent to be a mystic, that he can't see the forest or the trees.

 

[RMACKD]

Tichok, I am shocked at your insults of other styles. Just how much experience in other style do you have? Systema is a good art but I do not consider it superior to other arts I have trained in and I actually do rank a few arts higher in effectiveness above systema. But I don't go around on the internet telling everyone to dump systema and try other things. I do believe that if you are talking about more soft and non-resistance based arts that Systema is at the top in effectiveness but I do not tell tai chi people to dump there style for systema. Your comments are rude and are very strange. Every systema practicioner I met never went off bragging about the superiority of systema. Who do you train under? To say that a foreigner can not master a russian style is ridiculous. Many foriegners have become champs in thai kickboxing and I have no doubt that there will be practicioners from other countries that happen to be more skilled than Russian practicioners.

 

[alexk]

wow, Tichok really sounds like a troll, but that maybe because his English is so poor.

 

[NYCRonin]

Alex....I personally dont feel so much a 'trollish' expression from 'thicok' as much as I do the missplaced nationalism and eliteism that I became VERY familiar with a few decades ago in other arts I was a part of, that were born in different cultures than mine. Opinions of the 'native sons'- that we always subsequently proven wrong - and never shared by the acknowledged leaders of any art, for they also saw the 'common ground' of humanity, as they taught openly thier arts flavor. If this is the same 'tichok' I have encountered before on other forums, some that even no longer exist -- he has always been interesting to read. I bear him no animosity for this particular 'understanding' he expresses...I know as you do - his opinion is as valid, and his own.
And as stated, it is not the opinion I have received from the lips of the Russian teachers who I honor, love and care for.

This writer is now 50 years old...and I have wandered the 'way' for 41 of those years. My teachers have come from many cultures, and have had many different skin colors and religious/cultural/social points of origin...I am VERY thankful for that fact...and more thankful that the evolved 'human soul' KNOWS the fact that geography is no more a blessing than it can be a curse.

The 'Tropa' - the 'way' - the 'path' - has many faces and many expressions - yet they are all human.

'WE' are also - all -- human.

Nationalistic pride, and predjudice; be damned! That which makes us all the same FAR outweighs such nit-picking differences.

TRUTH is simply TRUTH!
And the depths of truth that the Russian System I have been blessed to learn and follow (and be a 'foreign instructor' of) is something far greater than a lattitude or longitude on the globe. 'IT' is a gift of knowledge and understanding and growth to the worlds humanity...and to say that it is only to be truly, 'deeply' understood by those born to any dot on the map - is to cheapen the deep validity of 'its' truth and gifts to us all.

AND - a disservice to the teachers who pass it along...and those who shed their past blood in history on the Russian soil in war and conflict and sadness and victory as well -- through hundreds of years of development.

I am sorry tichock - but, in this; you have a misplaced commitment to simple nationalism. Not to the simple inspiring beauty of the Russian System that my teachers, my friends who I love and admire.

This simple NYC native KNOWS what they have personally told me -- and unless they recant their words, I have to simply state that you are 'wrong'.
Until you can 'prove' they have 'deceived' me -- I choose to go with them.

I will even go as far as to state that the 'deepest' level of mastery can be attained by a non-Russian practitioner. I will never attain it...but I dont care.
The beauty of Systema. as taught to me by VV and MR; has shown me that "I am at home with this, as no other" (old Zen poem quote - in paraphrase)...but I assure all reading, that non-native students can and will attain full mastery of this art..in time...and before one way expect.

 

[milosmalic]

I have a bit different answers to this questions

#1. Do you think that only people of Russian blood can fully understand Russian style? I mean, do you think it is possible for a foriegner to understand?

#2. Do you think that it is possible that someone from another culture and martial art could learn and understand the same elements and concepts that exist in "Russian Style?"

#3. Do you think it is possible that a master from another culture and martial art could possibly exceed Russian masters in one or more elements?

1. At least Slavic blood and Orthodox Christian belief is a huge adventage. Heroic predecessors which participated in many battles is a plus on that adventage.

2. Yes it is. It is very difficult, but this world is full of interesting and unique persons. God took care of that.

3. 'Level of mastery' and 'element' is very variable thing. Giving answer to this undefined question is impossible. If you ask: "Is it possible that master from another culture roll faster then Russian one" the answer could be yes...

 

[jellyman]

Will a person learning systema starting at age 20 ever catch up to person starting at age 5? Unlikely unless the latter stops progressing.

Does it matter the heritage of the people involved? Only insofar as what individual attribuites they inherit.

Just because your dad's a math genius doesn't make YOU a math genius. Maybe your great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was a brilliant warrior, but that doesn't mean he passed that gift to his descendents. Ghengis Khan was the most prolific alpha male in recorded history. Genetic tests show that 16 million of the worlds population is directly descended from him. Of those many descendents http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030205-100301-1566r , how many do you think can ride and shoot like he did? It may be a nice whimsy to say to yourself that the blood and skill of warriors past echoes in your veins, but unless all your female ancestors had the secret mystery warrior gene too [sarcasm - no scientists I know of have isolated such a thing], the odds are decidedly against it.Espcially when you realize that each child is the result of combining genes from the parents, and then mutating a certain amount of them. No child is a copy of the parents, and each child has genetic mutation profile unique to itself.

Besdies which, systema is not about being the fastest or the strongest.

In fact, that kind of thinking can lead to demise - systema proficciency and arrogance don't really mix very well. At least, that's what VV tells us gullible foreigners and russians.

Anyway, I'm all about doing the best I can for me, not measuring up to some imagined ideal (where did I learn that one from...?).

Also, dogging Sonnon is uncalled for.

Mysticism in systema - maybe in russian cultural traditions, yes, I have heard of such things.

But - not something taught at club Vlad, not something Mikhail credits (I asked him directly, citing footage I saw of a guy stamping the earth and people 20 yards away falling over among other things - his answer was a chuckle and a word - '********'). Unless he was just lying to the gullible foreigner again...

Conspiracy theories can explain anything though. It could be there's a massive conspiracy to perpetuate mysticism in RMA, and VV and MR have broken ranks, for example.

Or it could be tichok is trying to stir things up.

Or maybe I'm a mole from the MVD trying to stop foreigners from looking too closely.

 

[RachelK]

At least Slavic blood and Orthodox Christian belief is a huge advantage. Heroic predecessors which participated in many battles is a plus on that advantage.

I judge people by what they do, not who they are. By descent I am entirely Slavic but culturally I am American and we are well-known for this attitude. Your ancestors might be the greatest warriors in the world but here in NYC, we want to know, what have you done lately? I haven't noticed my Russian classmates are any more proficient than the Americans, nor do they take to Systema any more easily. Individual personality, open-mindedness, and diligence are much greater factors than ethnic heritage. Relying on one's heritage to give an advantage just might make the practitioner lazy. I've never felt as if I have to work harder because I am not Russian. I've always felt I am just as welcome as anyone to study Systema and how many times have my teachers told me that anyone who works hard can attain the same level of profiency as even the greatest masters?

I, too, have "heroic predecessors," like many of my Russian counterparts, my ancestors fought the Nazis. No, they didn't use swords and mail, but they fought and died nonetheless. My friend's ancestor delivered the papers to the Pentagon that officially ended WWII. Another friend's ancestor fought with the Maquis, was wounded, captured, and held at Buchenwald, where he was starved and had to eat his own bloody bandages to survive. Maybe we don't have thousands of years of heroics behind us, but heroics are not unique to one culture.

As far as the Orthodox beliefs, I have not found this to be a huge advantage in my fellow practioners who happen to be Orthodox. Fighting skill doesn't appear magically when one has the right heritage or adheres to a specific religion. One isn't "born" with a predisposition for Systema. It is nuture, not nature, from which we learn the principles of Systema. I learn from my teachers, who learn from Vlad and Mikhail. When I read something that is so contrary to what I've learned, I cannot help but wonder if this is being taught formally to Systema students, and if so, it strikes me as a shame that aspiring students should be taught that they can only go so far because of their ancestry. This attitude was once common in the U.S. and many of my parents' generation gave their lives in the struggle to change the hearts and minds of our society. I hate to see this attitude within the Systema community. It seems the very opposite of all I have learned about Systema and its inclusiveness. It's not my prerogative to say it is a "wrong" attitude as I am not close to the sources of Systema teachings. But my teacher is. And until he tells me otherwise, I'll continue to believe that Systema can be mastered by anyone.

*Vsego nailuchshego* (best wishes),
Rachel

 

[jellyman]

Fighting skill doesn't appear magically when one has the right heritage or adheres to a specific religion.

Yeah, but then you get into the discussion of whether fighting skill is all there is to get, etc. etc. Maybe in some ineffable way, the ROC people get something no-one else does, that no-one else will see. For example, a better understanding of christianity as practiced by ROC. The question is, if you're not ROC, would you care?

 

[KyleShort]

Mysticism in systema - maybe in russian cultural traditions, yes, I have heard of such things.

But - not something taught at club Vlad, not something Mikhail credits (I asked him directly, citing footage I saw of a guy stamping the earth and people 20 yards away falling over among other things - his answer was a chuckle and a word - '********'). Unless he was just lying to the gullible foreigner again...

Why is it in the guidebook then? Am I missing something? Perhaps I missunderstand the intent of the guidebook or I am missing the context of the examples that I have given?

Thanks for your insight!

 

[tichok]

It is still in because it cause contraversial. Then when people come, foreigners play game of "back peddle". They say, "no, it's not right. Mystical not here." Very soon new revised book will be publish. It will not include these because Systema is know-how "brand." Nothing will be need to "sell" it to foreigners because people come to it for own sake.

You see this is very, very old Russian custom. Stalin best it. SAMBO is example like onion. Layer after layer foreigners peel. They hope to get real SAMBO. Under Mr. Anatoli Kharlampiev. Under Mr. Vasili Oshchepkov. Under Mr. Viktor Spiridonov. Three different styles (and more foreigners dont know) but these major. What is middle of onion? What is final layer? Nothing. It is difficult to foreigner to understand Russian soul. We had secrets as cultural tradition even when we make "fairy tale" because people want believe. Russian-Style is true but you need stop want "fairy tale."

Mr. Scott Sonnon teach in Russia his American know-how to special police OMON security units. It show on Russian television NTV. He asked question if he teach ROSS secrets to American military. He say, "yes, but truth is truth. We all better people together from study". He is distinguished coach and wrestler but this not Russian-Style. He teach his own "universal" style which is typical of America. It only touch small spot of physical and psychological but never psychic.

 

[NYCRonin]

When one enters the tie in between any m.art and any religious or philosophy/cultural base - there will always be a certain 'elitism' from those that are more similar to the head man in personal beliefs. If you have been around arts from different cultures, you have seen it before -- and seen it is not any particular great advantage. And that the 'master' involved does not share that 'elitism' -- they have all seen further into the nature of what a student is all about.
Now, dont get me wrong, there are certain advantages to sharing a culture and language with a teacher. Since it is 'nurture' -- it is easier for the teacher to communicate ideas when a translator is not required -- but a good teacher finds a way to explain things well, a great teacher can pass along things excellently, sometimes without words at all.
Lets take an easy to understand comparison from the m.art world.
Old lineage 'samurai' jiu-jitsu.
Ever study this? When you do, you would be amazed at the extensive list of 'defense against the wrist grab' moves. A westerner is often perplexed with that - because the wrist grab just seems to get so much attention. Ah, but if you understand the time from which such arts sprang, you would realize that it was VERY important to a samurai -- because a wrist grab was a form of 'attack by interception' - in other words, it was an attempt to prevent the drawing of the sword. Makes sense now, doesnt it?
So, I have touched on 'language/national' and 'historical/cultural' advantages.
Now - (as it is said "Unless you want to start an argument, stay away from religion and politics as topics) - although I have No desire to start any religious argument - this needs to be understood also.
Since the masters mentioned - VV and MR - are deeply religious men of the ROC -- they embody their beliefs and, at times; make very clear refferences to their beliefs as they explain the whys and wherefores of Systema -- their whole life is a 'gestalt' -- an integrated oness. Its part of their charm and grace. Still, they pass along all they have to offer freely - and Systema no more requires one to be 'like the masters to totally understand it' by being ROC than one is required to be a Spetsnaz veteran -- which they both are.

Jellyman and I have both been privaleged enough to enter into the beautiful ROC chapel built on the grounds of MR's home. It is beautiful and holy place - as were the monastaries we visited. When I have twice met Father Vladimir (Vlad's ROC priest in Toronto) - both times I privately asked for a blessing for my loved ones, the world and finally, myself. He knew I am not ROC, as does VV, MR and 'the crew' -- but Father Vladimir shared his faith with me freely, as does VV and MR also, and although I might be best described as a 'zennist/wayist' -- I do feel 'blessed' by their openess and learn also from their faith - faith in their God, faith in the System, and their faith in me, as a person; as well.

They do not hold to any form of 'eliteism' -- and are there for all who come to the gate with an open heart. If these masters do so -- it would be well for anyone that puffs up their pride and ego -- to learn from their example.

In closing this: Will there ever be a 'master' of what VV/MR pass on that is not 'Russian' -- of course there will be, in time. It is destined to be. Will that person have to be very dedicated and exceptional? Again, of course. Still, even a Russian who 'masters' this HAS to be exceptional. He/she may have certain advantages due to the factors mentioned above - advantages that would make it abit easier for them to learn. The challeges are not insurmountable for the dedicated. Just being the best 'good person' you can be is more than enough of a challenge - a challenge worthy of of the student and our master teachers as well.

Just do your best - shoot for the moon, for even if you miss; you will land amongst the stars.

 

[RachelK]

I think there is a lot more to Systema, and to life, than fighting skill. We have a lot more to "get" than fighting skill if we want to become good students of the System. The Guidebook mentions principles like harmonizing your life, using Systema as a force for good, recognizing that there is a higher power than yourself, treating other people with compassion. Humility, love for fellow man, living honestly and compassionately, performing good deeds, these ideas are not unique to any religion. I distrust any religion that claims to have a monopoly on such ideas. Certainly ROC offers a different perspective on spirituality than other religions. But doesn't every religion offer something that no other religion offers? Otherwise, we wouldn't have so many, LOL.
I can't help but notice that so few of those willing to adhere to the idea of "you must be Russian/ROC to master Systema" are actually certified teachers. If this becomes the general consensus and approved doctrine of our teachers, then I'll have to eat my words. But until then I'll trust in what Rob Green says on this matter, as he has been around Systema a long time and is close to the sources, from whom I am quite distant.
Kyle, I have no idea if this will help with your questions, but the Guidebook is also a historical description of Vlad's own military training, to provide some background on Systema as he now teaches it. The sections where he describes mirror-scyring, charging water, or touching colors are in the historical background section, not in the "tips for training" section. Nowhere in the Guidebook does Vlad advocate that current students of Systema try these so-called mystical exercises, nor does he suggest that current students try some of the more gruelling or even cruel exercises he describes. Cold water dousing doesn't fall under the same category, as it is a health practice in wide use all over the world. As far as the burning holes in the snow, give cold-water dousing a try and you will have a closer understanding of how this could possibly happen. I guess this message will end as so many of our messages do, with a suggestion to try it or if you're already in Systema classes, ask your teacher about the Guidebook and maybe he will offer some suggestions for interpretation.
Good luck and *Vsego nailuchshego* (best wishes),
Rachel

 

[tichok]

Let us put aside emotion. Mr. Scott Sonnon foreign product of Russian-Style. He move like Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev and he is distinguished fighter. But even though he most advanced foreigner in Russian-Style, he claim no psychic energetical training exist. This is not because it dont exist. It because Mr. Scott Sonnon cannot understand it because he not Russian like Mr. Rob Green say about Samurai "wrist twist."

 

[NYCRonin]

As I am definetly unqualified to comment on ROSS or Sambo - I will let others more versed debate that part of the thread.

I am not Russian, but I do 'psy' work and have done so in real world combative experience also. I was taught this by VV and MR....and can do some things that I never thought were possible, but I learned...without benefit of Russian birth. (And Vlad and Scott S. do not move alike, that I know for a fact....only superficial similarities in common movement -- but hardly the same).

RE: Systema, as taught by Vlad and Misha -- I can see a certain pattern of set ideas beginning to repeat themselves, including mine.

So, I suggest we let time be the judge. Let us see where 'Systema' is in, say; 10 years time - 2014....I plan on still being around...and a part of Systema as well. Even just 5 years time will be very revealing and answer many of the points expressed and questions raised.
"For everything there is a season...for everything there is a time".

I will sit back and read -- I have the time to do so.

 

[tichok]

We play politically? No foreigner in Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev style say about Mr. Scott Sonnon good things because they no train with him. No foreigner in Mr. Scott Sonnon style say about Mr. Scott Sonnon bad things because they do train with him. So we no talk. OK. That fine. I make my point.

 

[ABN]

I'm not sure I understand your hostility towards Coach Sonnon nor do I understand what it has to do with the Russian system guidebook. Comparing Coach Sonnon, or Vladimir Vasiliev, or Mikhail Ryabko is pointless. All three are men who have found success on paths that have lead them to those they train. Sure being on an Al'fa team is not the same as being a Master of Sport but, do you deny that both have something valid to teach in the combat arts?
I have met and had the opportunity to work with both VV and Coach Sonnon (I hope one day to have the privilige of training with Mikhail Ryabko). I walked away from each experience better than I was before not just as a warrior but as a whole person. I am sure that the OMON troops who trained with Coach Sonnon and the members of various western Special Operations Units who trained with Vladimir Vasiliev would say the same thing. When you work with someone whose level of skill permeates their very soul, you are in the presence of someone special regardless of their nationality.
I am saddened to see eyes hardened and unwilling to acknowledge the accomplishments of others. In closing I want to share an experience that may benefit you; as a Systema zygote (I now consider myself a Systema fetus) at a seminar, Vlad saw my tension from across the room (a blind man could have seen it) he said "smile" and went about training. I encourage you to do the same.

 

[NYCRonin]

Tichok -- as far as a student of VV not saying anything 'good' about Scott S. - you are VERY wrong. If you search this site about SS, you will find that I and a few other VV students have nothing but respect for the man, and have shown support for him.
I cant comment about ROSS/Sambo because I dont study them. I have no 'disrespect' for these methods either -- just dont study them. I try to avoid posting about things I know little about.

 

[jellyman]

"Why is it in the guidebook then? Am I missing something? Perhaps I missunderstand the intent of the guidebook or I am missing the context of the examples that I have given?"

These are all about his days training in spetsnaz, right? Remember where he says this isn't what he teaches? It's all one with the halling corpses out of cars.

At the International camp in Ontario last summer, the mirror excercise was brought up. Response was - not part of systema, only done by certain units, not recommended for general public.

 

[WillFightForBeer]

Tichok, I fear that the language barrier is affecting your level of communication. PM me your phone number and we'll talk in Russian.

-Ilya