Multiple attackers in a parking lot...

[MBatcho1]

I personally think it was handled very well.

As for the whole ganging up on people I'm not sure.

Kids now a days think and do what they want.

Me and my friends are firm believers in the "fair fight" mentality. If you are fighting someone and their friend jumps in then someone can intervene.

Other than that fight one on one and call it a day.

I have a friend that will go and start a fight and then run to us for help.

We look at him and pretty much tell him good luck. If he is that stupid to start a fight then he should deal with it himself. I dont team up someone because I have a stupid friends.

Anyway sorry for the rant. I just think that it is unfair to get beat up by multiple people if it is a one on one deal.

My advice to the kids would be to fight fair or dont fight at all. If you have a problem then deal with it like a man and quick being a bunch of.........well you know whats.

 

[BLACK LION]

You + "multiple attackers"(more than one) = justified lethal force. Its just that easy. If more than one man surrounds me and my spidey sense tells me I am in for it... I am drawing and getting some meat... plain and simple. "If" I am there to give an after-report... "they surrounded me and said they were going to kill me and I believed them".... "I am too shaken up to discuss this right now and anything further should go through my attorney".... I for one am not the guy whos sticks around to wait for the men in blue... you neve know what neighborhood you are in and who else might want some becuase of what just happened.... gangs being a prime example....

As a california resident, even here we can justify lethal force if there is mor than one attacker pretty much every time.... since there are many cases of people being jumped and killed to go off of... the key word is attacker... not 3 drunks swarming to argue about baseball or 3 bums swarming for a buck and a smoke....

 

[MJS]

I wasn't intending to set BJ Penn aside as some sort of superman. He's just in the top ranks of the lightweight divisions; I specifically wanted a smaller person who's a top combative athlete. They're going to be less able to justify using greater force against an unarmed person merely because the guy's bigger. He'd be justified, again, if he were in imminent fear of serious bodily harm or death.

Me? I'm, as some local DJs would say, a "person of larger carriage." I'm a big guy... but I definitely could stand to lose a good bit of weight, too. Doesn't mean I'm not fit, though... But, like I said, I could be injured, I could have just run a foot race, lots of things can effect my situation.

The Six Flags guy? Picked him as an easy, fun example of an older person. Again, I can think of some examples that would be a whole different situation; see Bob's Masters gallery for a few of them!

Oh... and to return to the original topic: Multiple attackers in a parking lot get shot as soon as I can create enough distance to draw and engage them. If for some reason I can't shoot them, there are tactics like stacking opponents, using obstacles, and the like to improve my chances -- but really, if I have to deal with them while unarmed, I'm trying to get out of there as fast as possible.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. On the other hand, I'd think that anyone, regardless of size, is going to use the "I was in fear of serious harm and bodily injury" claim, when the situation is said and done.

 

[MJS]

You + "multiple attackers"(more than one) = justified lethal force. Its just that easy. If more than one man surrounds me and my spidey sense tells me I am in for it... I am drawing and getting some meat... plain and simple. "If" I am there to give an after-report... "they surrounded me and said they were going to kill me and I believed them".... "I am too shaken up to discuss this right now and anything further should go through my attorney".... I for one am not the guy whos sticks around to wait for the men in blue... you neve know what neighborhood you are in and who else might want some becuase of what just happened.... gangs being a prime example....

As a california resident, even here we can justify lethal force if there is mor than one attacker pretty much every time.... since there are many cases of people being jumped and killed to go off of... the key word is attacker... not 3 drunks swarming to argue about baseball or 3 bums swarming for a buck and a smoke....

QFT!! Can't disagree with this!

 

[jks9199]

Ok, thanks for the clarification. On the other hand, I'd think that anyone, regardless of size, is going to use the "I was in fear of serious harm and bodily injury" claim, when the situation is said and done.

Yes, but the issue isn't did you fear; it's was the fear reasonable. The fear has to make sense to the mythical "reasonable man" or the use of force isn't justifiable. Randy Couture would have a heck of a time convincing a jury that he reasonably feared for his life against an unarmed, underweight 12 year old. Give that 12 year old a pistol... and the game is changed.

 

[seasoned]

A big scary guy running at you, "unarmed", is no cause for lethal force. Now if he has a knife in his hand, that is another story. This guy with the gun gives everyone with a legal permit, a bad rap. It all boils down to training, and knowing when lethal force is appropriate.

I would say that, that would depend on what state you live in, and how much money you have, and how good your lawyer is. In NYS you had better have a very good reason, before you draw on someone, let alone kill them.

The law is somewhat precise, until you get to court.

I don't know, Seasoned. Imagine you are not a martial artist, a LEO or anything of the kind. Instead imagine that your're a small, sixty-something, retired school teacher alone on a remote hiking trail, and you are suddenly attacked by a pack of three ferocious dogs followed by a big, scary, and absolutely keep on coming. You are absolutely in fear for your life. And there is no place to run, no place to hide.

If, (and that's a big IF, I know) but again... If the defendant's story is true, and that IS exactly what happened, you're teenraged, screaming man. In spite of your warnings and your gun, he and his dogs lling me that he didn't have a right to defend himself? Please explain.

Everyone has the right to defend themselves, it is the dead part that could cause a problem.

 

[geezer]

The law is somewhat precise, until you get to court...Everyone has the right to defend themselves, it is the dead part that could cause a problem.

Very true. Which is one good thing about martial arts /self defense training. It gives you more options. Options such as avoidance, de-escalation, and escaping from bad situations, as well as non-lethal responses to an attack. That's why I brought up the case of the old guy who just depended on his gun. He had only one option, and as a result his life is totally messed up!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Down in "The Study", Bill Mattocks started a thread on a story about a racist attack in Canada. Three white toughs jumped a black man, Mr. Jay Phillips in a parking lot. Mr. Phillips put up a pretty good fight, although at one point it went to the ground and things looked pretty bad for him. Like everyone says, the ground game doesn't work against multiple attackers. Fortunately, he made it back to his feet and soon the three punks decided they'd had enough, piled back into their pickup and took off.

Anyway, after thinking about this for awhile, I thought it might be a good topic to revisit here. I teach high school and one thing I hear from the kids I work with is that ganging up on people to beat the crap out of them is getting so common that it's becoming the norm these days. A lot of kids don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, some feel that going into a "fair fight", one against one, is downright stupid. Well if that's becoming the social norm, or the reality for our times, maybe it deserves a lot more attention. What strategies do you apply in dealing with multiple attackers. And if you were Mr. Phillips in that parking lot, how would you have handled the situation?

The three elements required for a smaller force to defeat a larger force are SPEED, SURPRISE and VIOLENCE OF ACTION!

Also, as you point out in the next post, group attacks are often like wolf packs.......which usually have an Alpha as a leader.......that should always be the initial target of the SPEED, SURPRISE and VIOLENCE OF ACTION! Destroy the leader IMMEDIATELY, and the betas may scatter..........i've not only seen it happen, i've personally confronted a large group, and kept them off guard by aggressively assaulting the 'MOUTH'.........

FYI in the Hyena world it is the FEMALE who is dominant Alpha of the group.......whether the lion knew she was the strength of the group or just luck of the draw is anyone's guess........but attacking her destroyed group cohesion.

At the end of the day, there really IS such a thing as 'Imposing your Will'........even on aggressive groups.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yes, but the issue isn't did you fear; it's was the fear reasonable. The fear has to make sense to the mythical "reasonable man" or the use of force isn't justifiable. Randy Couture would have a heck of a time convincing a jury that he reasonably feared for his life against an unarmed, underweight 12 year old. Give that 12 year old a pistol... and the game is changed.

And that 'reasonable man' changes from location to location.........the reasonable 'man' in SoCal isn't the same as the 'reasonable man' in west Texas or rural Missouri.

 

[sgtmac_46]

You + "multiple attackers"(more than one) = justified lethal force. Its just that easy. If more than one man surrounds me and my spidey sense tells me I am in for it... I am drawing and getting some meat... plain and simple. "If" I am there to give an after-report... "they surrounded me and said they were going to kill me and I believed them".... "I am too shaken up to discuss this right now and anything further should go through my attorney".... I for one am not the guy whos sticks around to wait for the men in blue... you neve know what neighborhood you are in and who else might want some becuase of what just happened.... gangs being a prime example....

As a california resident, even here we can justify lethal force if there is mor than one attacker pretty much every time.... since there are many cases of people being jumped and killed to go off of... the key word is attacker... not 3 drunks swarming to argue about baseball or 3 bums swarming for a buck and a smoke....

Multiple attackers definitely ups the ante.........and some Prostituting attorney may attack the idea that getting your head kicked in by 5 guys doesn't quite constitute 'Lethal force' (If your particular attack situation involves the wrong demographic mix for his constituents) but that same moron would also charge 5 guys who did the same to some acquaintance of HIS with FELONY AGGRAVATED ASSAULT!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Anyone remember this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8_z...D1210A22&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=74

or this guy

 

[MJS]

Yes, but the issue isn't did you fear; it's was the fear reasonable. The fear has to make sense to the mythical "reasonable man" or the use of force isn't justifiable. Randy Couture would have a heck of a time convincing a jury that he reasonably feared for his life against an unarmed, underweight 12 year old. Give that 12 year old a pistol... and the game is changed.

But as it was said in another post, its going to vary from loc. to loc. and person to person. I may not feel as much fear as my wife and viceversa. But of course, I would imagine that if this was a situation in which you were taken to court, the police were called, etc., then the common sense thing to say would be that you were in fear, no matter if you were or were not.

 

[K831]

A lot of good suggestions and observations posted in this thread. I have far from read the entire thing, but wanted to put a couple of thoughts down based on my own experiences, maybe give some things to think about, like those who have posted have done for me. If these have already been posted, then sorry....

My family teases me for this, but I pay close attention to what I wear in public. Even if I am going to get gas or a quick wally world trip:

- I do not wear sandals. They are terrible to move in, you will end up barefoot and that is no good.

- I do not wear anything around my neck. Example; my wife and I went to a big Expo in phoenix and the passes they gave when you bought tickets came on a lanyard to go around you neck. It went in my pocket. To easy for one or more attackers to get hold of. If I am driving home from a formal work meeting/event/church the tie comes off as soon as I step outside.

- If I cant fight the way I train because of my clothing, I don't wear it. If I cant use what I am learning in normal clothes, I don't train it.

- Urgency and speed of action is key. I have had several "group" altercations in my life and I have learned that if the attack seems imminent, than I should get a shot off first, without any reservation. I know this has been said, but I have personally seen that if you can make the first guy go down hard and ugly, it will often take the wind out of the sails of the other guys.

- If you can, signal out the leader, most often the mouthy one, and put him down hard, it will increase the effect.

Attack first, and do it if you can before they get any positional advantage. Here is a personal example I can relate to illustrate this:

I got out of my car in a parking lot at a grocery store late, trying to get in and get something home for dinner since my wife and I would both be getting home late from work. Just as I was closing my car door another car screeched in about 5 feet away. there were 4 guys in a car, windows rolled down threatening and swearing at me. The driver pushed his door open and started getting out. I bolted across the distance and did a running front kick into his driver door, smashing it into his body as he was halfway out. This was pretty damaging to him physically, but I stepped to the side and gave him another front kick to the face as he slumped in the seat. This elicited both a degree of shock and anger from the rest. He appeared incapacitated so I moved around to the other side of the car since the other front seat passenger was nearly out. By the time I got there he was out, but pretty up against the car. As this was a two door car I stopped him there, making it difficult for the other two to get out. I immediately attacked him. He swung a time or two, but after a stiff jab to the nose landed, he tried to withdraw into the car covering up with his arms. My car was left unlocked, so with the other two stunned and stuck in the back of the car, I jumped in my car and left.


Now, I acted aggressively, because that's my nature, because it had worked in the past, and because altercations aren't unfamiliar so much of the "first time hesitancy" is gone. The fact that I attacked first and did it before there were four guys out of the car helped a lot, since on my best day i can't beat 4 guys, and I didn't have a weapon that day.

Maybe I could have jumped back in my car immediately and drove off, but I felt the driver may have been able to keep me from getting in while the others surrounded.

Upon reflection afterward, the other potential serious issue with this situation is that I could have been shot at from a gun I couldn't see within the vehicle. Of course, I may have ended up shot point blank if they had gotten out of the car.

I have had some other experiences with multiple attackers, but I think this example illustrates the point.

Just some thoughts.

And, since some have made decent movie mentions already, I'll quote Josey Wales;

"Now remember, if things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."

 

[blackxpress]

This is a very important discussion for us to be having. Here's another example why from this morning's Tennessean newspaper:

http://www.tennessean.com/article/2...d+with+attack+on++Daily+News+Journal++carrier

Here's a guy just minding his own business, doing his job, and he gets jumped by three out of control teenagers and his kids have to witness him being beaten nearly to death.

 

[CoryKS]

From blackxpress's article:

"Apparently, the juveniles witnessed the driver throw something into their yard, which turned out to be the newspaper. However, the juveniles didn't know what the driver threw, and so they chased him down" and attacked him, Evans said.

*facepalm*

 

[K831]

This is a very important discussion for us to be having. Here's another example why from this morning's Tennessean newspaper:

http://www.tennessean.com/article/2...d+with+attack+on++Daily+News+Journal++carrier

Here's a guy just minding his own business, doing his job, and he gets jumped by three out of control teenagers and his kids have to witness him being beaten nearly to death.

Andy many of our "leaders" say we have no need to arm ourselves, my magazine holds too many, my knife is too long or opens to fast...

 

[BLACK LION]

I would like to place a wager that there were onlookers who stood in awe and did nothing.

 

[blackxpress]

I would like to place a wager that there were onlookers who stood in awe and did nothing.

It was 5 a.m. so I doubt if there many onlookers, if any. Which makes the story sound kind of fishy actually. Why weren't these 3 geniuses still in bed at that time of the morning? They just happened to be up, hanging out together at 5 a.m. and noticed somebody throw something in the yard? Makes me wonder if they weren't laying for the guy.

 

[celtic_crippler]

It was 5 a.m. so I doubt if there many onlookers, if any. Which makes the story sound kind of fishy actually. Why weren't these 3 geniuses still in bed at that time of the morning? They just happened to be up, hanging out together at 5 a.m. and noticed somebody throw something in the yard? Makes me wonder if they weren't laying for the guy.

More likely they'd been up all night partying.

 

[BLACK LION]

Or... up for a few days or weeks REALLY partying!!!