Moral question

[MountainSage]

Some time last year our dojangs first black belt go tossed in jail for beat a person up to the point he went to the hospital. The BB was drunk and a friend held the guy while the BB beat him. This beat was in the "victims" home, which the BB and his friend kick the door in and his young children were present. Granted the victim was no saint, acutally he's a real scum. He had been brought to trial for numerous rape attempts never conviced. For this the BB go three years probation and assorted fine and alcohol treatment class. The instructor and master removed him to red belt with one stripe (1st Gup) for one year. I got a big problem with this punishment. I don't believe that it is harsh enough. What is your opinion?

Mountain Sage

 

[fringe_dweller]

Wow... that's a really tough question. I'd hate to make an uninformed opinion which is really the only sort I can offer without knowing any details. Say for example that the BB had a friend who had been a victim of this guy - I know there is (in a perfect world) no provocation that should allow you to do that to a person but unfortunately this isn't a perfect world.

I guess this just highlights how imnportant it is that your Instructor can provide you with more than just the physical training of a martial art (please don't take that as a slant on your instructor) - and how important it is that you be willing to apply it to your life.

Respectfully,

 

[J-kid]

Really depends to be honest. I need more info on each person.

 

[KennethKu]

Is the instructor supposed to teach him about the law now?

What he did is called home invasion. In some states, you would be in deep poo-poo.

You don't get to decide who you want to beat up. You can use force to stop a crime in progress. You cannot settle score after the fact, so to speak.

He got off easy.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for law and order. But you have do it right.

 

[MountainSage]

Fringe Dweller,
The only other details I know for a fact is that a mutual female friend of the BB and his friend claimed to have been raped. The women had a history of blant lies to get revenge and the two knew this to be true. The BB is also the teachers pet adn can do no wrong in the teacher's eyes.

Mountain Sage

 

[TLH3rdDan]

hummm this is interesting... he must have been wrestling with the problem to begin with for him to have had to be drunk in order to go to the guys house kick his door in and beat the hell out of him... as far as your instructor simply demoting him to 1st gup... not sure if i agree with that either but its not my call to make nor yours... im sure your instructor had his reasons perhaps the humiliation he felt the student went thru by being arrested and charged and convicted and given probation was punishment enough... but im not him and cant make that call or intrepritation of his actions... if you feel strongly about it simply ask him... the worst he can say is its none of your bussiness and not respond...

 

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Is the instructor supposed to teach him about the law now?

Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself well. All I meant is that the concepts of self control etc which would have led up to him going to break and enter into a house are those which he obviously needs to brush up on. Anyone who claims to be a martial artist and is a thug is kidding themselves IMHO. Excuse me while I go put on my flame suit.

Respectfully,

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Some time last year our dojangs first black belt go tossed in jail for beat a person up to the point he went to the hospital. The BB was drunk and a friend held the guy while the BB beat him. This beat was in the "victims" home, which the BB and his friend kick the door in and his young children were present. Granted the victim was no saint, acutally he's a real scum. He had been brought to trial for numerous rape attempts never conviced. For this the BB go three years probation and assorted fine and alcohol treatment class. The instructor and master removed him to red belt with one stripe (1st Gup) for one year. I got a big problem with this punishment. I don't believe that it is harsh enough. What is your opinion?
Mountain Sage

I was going to ask why he had to wait until the guy was drunk and then have his friend hold him but then I realized he's a black belt in TKD. So he probably was at even odds. Hell, he was even stupid enough to get caught.

The fact that his instructor took away rank is laughable. Really, come on. I can see it now. "Ah young foolish black belt. You must now give back the knowledge I have given you until you can again posses it wisely. Please to open up your skull and pour it out. I have been training you to fight all these years. I cannot believe you have been foolish enough to use it."

Does the teacher come over and decide what colour scheme his house must be and other life decisions too?

 

[MountainSage]

Fringe dweller
No flames from me. I've learned that this forum has an large diverse group, so you must take all statements with a grain of salt. I guess I wouldn't havve such an question if a month prior our master had not quoted from the Spiderman movie,"With great power come great responsibility". I also agree with the poster that stated that judgement is not my responsiblity, but how am I to follow this person as a leader or look at them as a senior. The act was just plan stupid from the start and I'm not the forgiving and forget type. I tend to hold myself and others to a high standard, probably higher than I should expect.

Mountain Sage

 

[Cthulhu]

If this incident actually happened, and if this were a student of mine, he would be stripped of all rank and ejected from the school.

No matter what the previous situation was, his black belt does not make him judge, jury, and executioner. Furthermore, he should have had the discipline not to get drunk and basically beat someone down (with help!).

Cthulhu

 

[GouRonin]

Yeah, 'cause God forbid that any teacher's students have somekind of indepenence and make choices and decisions on their own without consulting their teacher for how they should think and feel.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I was going to ask why he had to wait until the guy was drunk and then have his friend hold him but then I realized he's a black belt in TKD. So he probably was at even odds. Hell, he was even stupid enough to get caught.

The fact that his instructor took away rank is laughable. Really, come on. I can see it now. "Ah young foolish black belt. You must now give back the knowledge I have given you until you can again posses it wisely. Please to open up your skull and pour it out. I have been training you to fight all these years. I cannot believe you have been foolish enough to use it."

Does the teacher come over and decide what colour scheme his house must be and other life decisions too?

 

[bart]

Hey,

I think it's a little silly to strip rank. That implies that this guy's rank wasn't based on skill and achievement, but rather favor with the teacher.

We don't know much of the situation other than heresay, but it did show a lack of control and a lack of respect for the law. In some places that type of behavior is completely unacceptable, but in others it's par for the course especially if the guy that got beat up had it coming. But we don't know the situation.

If the guy was one of mine I'd have to listen to his story and see whether or not he was worth putting anymore time into. If he and the punishment fits the crime, then I'd keep teaching him, if he was totally in the wrong and was not going to change, then I'd ask him to leave.

We had a guy in our school who was convicted of robbery. He was a good kid that was very confused. He got in with a bad crowd and got in trouble. When he got out of the can he had turned over a new leaf. Our Sifu gave him a chance again. But limited his training time and the stuff that he was taught until he'd proven himself again.

The MA's are not mainstream. It's true it is getting moreso, but it isn't mainstream like soccer or baseball. It may be getting there, but it isn't yet. Mostly MA people are normal types, but off mainstream things attract fringe types, and criminals are fringe types. So they pop up in your classes, and mostly you don't know. I've trained with some very weird people once I got to know them. I've even trained with criminals. Wing Chun was known as the "gangster fist" in Hong Kong for the number of Triad people that had some knowledge of it.

If you ask me though, the most tacky thing this guy did was beat down on this guy with somebody else holding the guy down. He must be confident in his skills if he has his partner come along and restrain his targets.

 

[Cthulhu]

Stripping of rank obviously does nothing about the knowledge the student accumulated over the years. What it does is indicate that the person is no longer recognized as a black belt in the organization or by the school.

Making indepenent choices and yadda yadda yadda...obviously, if this fella wants to get drunk and beat somebody who is being held down, independent decision-making isn't his strongest skill.

Cthulhu
advocate of legalized retroactive birth control

 

[fist of fury]

I'm going to have to say no he's an adult and is allowed to make his own decisions outside of the school without asking his teacher. If however he did something in that class room that's a different story.

 

[Aegis]

Teaching someone to fight is something that shouldn't be done lightly. If the person being taught shows that they aren't capable of making reasonable decisions about the use of their abilities then the instructor should more or less disown them as a student. Abuse of what has been taught by the instructor would in my view be deserving of at least a demotion to below black belt.

 

[yilisifu]

If he'd been one of my students, he would have been immediately and permanently expelled.

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
If this incident actually happened, and if this were a student of mine, he would be stripped of all rank and ejected from the school.

No matter what the previous situation was, his black belt does not make him judge, jury, and executioner. Furthermore, he should have had the discipline not to get drunk and basically beat someone down (with help!).

Cthulhu

Here, here.

The guy not only shamed himself, but the school and the teacher. The school's name will be up for grabs in the media and many new or current students will flee because of it.

Stripping the rank is a sign from the teacher that he doesn't respect the student's actions. It has nothing to do with the knowledge this person has gained. It's probably the only thing the teacher could do. I do not dictate a person's life outside the school, but I choose who I teach to and I wouldn't continue to teach to a person who committed this type of crime.

No matter the circumstances, I think the teacher was way too lenient in this situation.

WhiteBirch

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I was going to ask why he had to wait until the guy was drunk and then have his friend hold him but then I realized he's a black belt in TKD. So he probably was at even odds. Hell, he was even stupid enough to get caught.
.
.
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Hey, hey ,hey! Settle down there sportsfans! I'm sure each style of the martial arts has its share of dumbass knuckleheads. Even the Russian arts must have its share of feeble boneheads.

However, we don't all put ourselves in this type of predicament. Most of us Taekwondoists have enough respect for ourselves and our art to not place ourselves in this situation.

Why do you have to take a shot at TKD, even if you are just being facetious?
And not all of us come from Mc Dojos/Mc Dojangs...:asian:

 

[Cliarlaoch]

I can't say that I know for certain what I myself would do about a student who had done what the individual in question had done, since I myself am not a sifu/sensei/etc. I can only say that, were I to teach someone, I would endeavour to teach them the ideas of loyalty, respect for others and myself, and moral justification in all things that have been passed down to me from my instructors. A student who violates those principles would be anathema to the very ideals that the martial arts hold to me, and to do nothing would strike me as violating those principles myself.

There's an old saying in the martial arts, much akin to the Spidey quotation posted earlier (a personal favourite of my own, as well!)... and that is that, on the way to becoming a black belt, you learn all the techniques necessary to kill a person, but in actually becoming a black belt, you learn the neccessity of NEVER using those techniques to kill a person. There is always a better way. You fight to defend yourself, your family and loved ones, etc, not to hurt another person unless you have no other choice. I would probably agree with Yilisifu, in being prepared to expel a student who took such actions. Hard choice, but nobody ever said the moral road was gonna be easy.

As for the TKD crack, there's no need for that, folks. I practice TKD, and I like to think that I practice the ART of Tae Kwon Do, not the SPORT of TKD. My instructors always emphasized the artistry of the style, and taught us techniques that were designed to be practical (as in any art, there are exceptions, as certain kicks are more practical then others). Use of one's legs in combat is useful due to the power, speed, and efficiency of using the largest muscles in the human body, and proper TKD training emphasizes the use of the legs in fighting an opponent. This makes it a very valid martial art form. I may joke about some of the goofier stuff that gets taught in the style, and that's valid... every style has its quirks, and I'm sure the comments about TKD practicioners needing a buddy to hold the opponent so we can beat 'em up was not meant to be mean-spirited, but it was in bad taste. Considering the subject matter of the thread, and considering that a large number of people here are TKD practitioners who happen to love our art as much as anybody else here, I for one would appreciate it if people could refrain from making such jokes again on this thread.

--Cliarlaoch