MJW Elbow Flare Confusion Explained

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Stuart, Feb 6, 2021.

  1. Stuart

    Stuart Yellow Belt

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    Video explanation here;



    The stuff about punch biomechanics starts at 4:20.

    Cliffs

    There is a video of action Film Star Michael Jai White explaining some boxing fundamentals to the late MMA fighter Kimbo Slice.

    White says "A lot of top boxers are taught to throw a flawed punch".

    This was seen by MMA fighter Mike Perry who effectively said that as White is an actor he is no position to be teaching a professional fighter.

    A beef between the two escalated.

    Meanwhile scientists out of the university of Tehran in Iran carried out a biomechanical analysis of a boxers punch.

    They noted that professional boxers avoid the principle that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

    They noted that by throwing with a trajectory that on paper would be inefficient it allowed for a pre stretch followed by a stretch shortening cycle which created a more explosive and powerful punch.
     
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  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Once you understand that there's more to fighting than the "shortest distance between two points is a straight line," you'll begin to see that there is other science at work. Each with it's own time and place of use. Each being effective within it's own context. The world doesn't use only one type of science to explain the things around us. This is the same with fighting. Trying to use only use bio-mechanics to explain fighting and effect application will make a person wrong in a lot of things. Like I always told students. "There's a lot more to effective fighting than just fighting."
     
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah. I think he is on point in a straight line. And why some jabs are easier to read. But if you move 3 dimensionally to take advantage of angles you are going to break that rule of straight line movement.
     
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  4. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    It's not just the shortest-distance that he does. He completely isolates the arm so it's the only thing moving. Watch his first 2 punches. There's a whole body twitch that he does before executing the punch. He shifts his weight to his front foot and leans his shoulder in before he punches. It's not just an elbow flare.

    We use similar movements as cues in our demonstration team to keep everyone on the same time during a form. Whoever is leading will do a slight twitch just before doing a technique, so everyone else will see it and be able to follow. What he's done is conditioned Mr. Slice to expect the punch when he sees the twitch. This is more about feints and traps than it is about physics.
     
  5. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Does this twitch actually help the form at all? Or is it an extra movement/an unnecessary tell for the goal of spreading the art/allowing demos?
    If the later, is it harmful to teach students to perform a tell that might hurt them in an actual fight, just because it helps in a demo? If the former, would the demo benefits would just be an undetermined benefit?
     
  6. axelb

    axelb Yellow Belt

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    There is a lot of theory and spin on selective science to present certain methods as the "best".

    You may get to the target quicker, but this method is hard to generate enough power for it to matter.
    There is also a lot more involved in an effective technique then the most direct path, to break it down to a small part if the entire story doesn't give the technique the full justice.
    You want to hit first, your timing and setup can have a lot more to do with this than the most direct path.
    The target you are hitting is best landed with the top 2 knuckles of the fist, this connection is made best from a palm down style punch (with gloves you can get away with variations easier).

    Which is why the "boxer" punch (seen in many other styles) would be better in "Street defence" scenario.
     
  7. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    It's only used by the leader as a cue for the rest to follow. Our demonstration team understands that techniques done in demonstration are for aesthetics.

    We also had our self-defense skit where kids were tickling each other, and one girl used her stinky feet to make another girl pass out. Two of the teenagers kept stealing each other's wallets. These aren't techniques we teach. But the audience was rolling with laughter. So the techniques accomplished their objective.
     
  8. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sure wish I had those seven minutes back.
     
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  9. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    At first I didn't watch the video. I already knew which MJW video was being discussed. That video was a much better and worth while video than the one that the OP posted.

    No fault of the OP, but that video strips punching all the way down to only arm movement and then makes an assumption about punching that is way off123
     
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