Military Krav Maga given too much credit

[Loki]

I get the feeling that part of what makes Krav Maga to some people, in addition to other things, is because it was developed for use by, and is still used by, the IDF. A combat style that is used by the military is deemed better, so the reasoning probably goes.

The funny thing is, civilian Krav Maga is lightyears ahead of it's military counterpart. Krav Maga may have developed in the military, but since military uses for unarmed combat are rather limited (those M-16's are good for something, right?), and soldiers have to be taught relatively quickly, civilian Krav Maga, in comparison, is a lot more thorough and professional.

A military Krav Maga instructor is, usually, a joke compared to a steady practitioner with even a blue belt. They don't know half the things he knows. They teach mainly rifle strikes, basic stance, punches and kicks, and a few knife and stick techniques.

Elite units learn civilian Krav Maga, not military.

~ Loki

 

[John Bishop]

I get the feeling that part of what makes Krav Maga to some people, in addition to other things, is because it was developed for use by, and is still used by, the IDF. A combat style that is used by the military is deemed better, so the reasoning probably goes.

The funny thing is, civilian Krav Maga is lightyears ahead of it's military counterpart. Krav Maga may have developed in the military, but since military uses for unarmed combat are rather limited (those M-16's are good for something, right?), and soldiers have to be taught relatively quickly, civilian Krav Maga, in comparison, is a lot more thorough and professional.

A military Krav Maga instructor is, usually, a joke compared to a steady practitioner with even a blue belt. They don't know half the things he knows. They teach mainly rifle strikes, basic stance, punches and kicks, and a few knife and stick techniques.

Elite units learn civilian Krav Maga, not military.

~ Loki

Actually, from what I have been told by instructors from both arts. Is that all soldiers are taught some Krav Maga as part of their boot camp training. Elite units of the IDF continuely train in the Isreali martial art, "Hisardut".

 

[arnisador]

A combat style that is used by the military is deemed better, so the reasoning probably goes.

This is why we have more martial artists that claim to train SEALs than we have SEALs.

Yeah, I think it got initial attention because of the IDF connection but I think it's going more on its own rep. now.

 

[Loki]

Actually, from what I have been told by instructors from both arts. Is that all soldiers are taught some Krav Maga as part of their boot camp training. Elite units of the IDF continuely train in the Isreali martial art, "Hisardut".

Is that the same Hisardut developed by Dennis Hannover? If so, then you were misinformed. IDF uses either civilian or military Krav Maga, but I'll double check just to makes sure.

~ Loki

 

[John Bishop]

Is that the same Hisardut developed by Dennis Hannover? If so, then you were misinformed. IDF uses either civilian or military Krav Maga, but I'll double check just to makes sure.

~ Loki

Yes, Dennis Hanover's "Hisardut Survival".
It may not be correct now, but at the time I wrote the articles (1994-95) on Krav Maga and Hisardut for "Inside Kung Fu" magazine, that information was given to me by American representatives of both organizations.

 

[Loki]

Yes, Dennis Hanover's "Hisardut Survival".
It may not be correct now, but at the time I wrote the articles (1994-95) on Krav Maga and Hisardut for "Inside Kung Fu" magazine, that information was given to me by American representatives of both organizations.

Really? That's a new one on me. I'll ask Dennis next time I see him.

~ Loki

 

[John Bishop]

Really? That's a new one on me. I'll ask Dennis next time I see him.

~ Loki

You can tell him the Hisardut representative was Alon Stivi.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This is why we have more martial artists that claim to train SEALs than we have SEALs.

Yeah, I think it got initial attention because of the IDF connection but I think it's going more on its own rep. now.

LOL, yeah there are a lot of SEAL instructors, some will even show you their S.C.A.R.S to prove it.

 

[Jerry]

This is why we have more martial artists that claim to train SEALs than we have SEALs.

One does not need to lie to do it. There are two simple ways to make the claim. The first is that SEALs (and other groups with ongoing training) will generally welcome instructors (who have filled out the appropriate paperwork) to come seminar. Usually, it's because one guy in the unit has a fascination with the art or instructor in question.

The other (having gone to a martial arts school which was down the street from SpecOps command at McDill), is simply to teach in the vicinity... you'll likely pick up one as a student at one point or another.

But I agree. For the most part (there are exceptions); modern millitary arts are not intended to be comprehensive, nor emminately flexable (no consideration for the little old woman or civillian rules of engagement)... there's no real reason to hold them better than their (now) civillian counterparts.

 

[Loki]

John, I spoke with Haim Zut, 10th dan in Krav Maga and a close friend of Dennis'. You're correct, some units in the army really do learn Hisardut, but they're told it's called Krav Maga. No use in teaching them a system and telling them it's the very best and then bringing in some guy and telling them "let's do some Hisardut, boys and... other boys!". Though the techniques they learn demand a lot of strength, so if you're it makes sense to only teach it to elite units.

Thanks for enlightening me,
~ Loki

 

[arnisador]

Haim Zut, 10th dan in Krav Maga

Is there a single person at the top of Krav Maga, or are there multiple 10th dans?

 

[loki09789]

I get the feeling that part of what makes Krav Maga to some people, in addition to other things, is because it was developed for use by, and is still used by, the IDF. A combat style that is used by the military is deemed better, so the reasoning probably goes.

The funny thing is, civilian Krav Maga is lightyears ahead of it's military counterpart. Krav Maga may have developed in the military, but since military uses for unarmed combat are rather limited (those M-16's are good for something, right?), and soldiers have to be taught relatively quickly, civilian Krav Maga, in comparison, is a lot more thorough and professional.

A military Krav Maga instructor is, usually, a joke compared to a steady practitioner with even a blue belt. They don't know half the things he knows. They teach mainly rifle strikes, basic stance, punches and kicks, and a few knife and stick techniques.

Elite units learn civilian Krav Maga, not military.

~ Loki

A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream possible. The other thing to consider is this: MA/Self Defense is more about commitment and grit than about 'artisiticness' so a person well versed in the mental and physical commitment to a handful of effective, simple and 'proven' applications would be someone I would want at my back over an 'artist' that can dance circles around that Military/Krav instructor IMO. The art of Martial arts is practiced in a medium of fear and mayhem....military training (especially a small force like IDF) has it over civilian practice hands down.

 

[Isrephael]

The art of Martial arts is practiced in a medium of fear and mayhem....military training (especially a small force like IDF) has it over civilian practice hands down.

Very true.

I've always held that my combat training made me a far better fighter. Not because we drilled HtH techniques anywhere near what we do in martial arts training, but because we were conditioned to harm or be harmed, kill or be killed. As the Samurai philosophers discussed at length, the "way of the warrior is death". The willingness to take a hit, the willingness to be injured, the willingness to die... and, of course, the willingness to test that same willingness in your opponent, makes you a very dangerous person.

The largest difference I've seen between civilians and military is that, when the "poop" hits the fan, civilians tend to get nervous and anxious. Military types tend to get very calm and very serious.

 

[Loki]

Is there a single person at the top of Krav Maga, or are there multiple 10th dans?

Four people were ever granted the rank of 10th dan in Krav Maga, three are still living.

~ Loki

 

[loki09789]

Very true.

I've always held that my combat training made me a far better fighter. Not because we drilled HtH techniques anywhere near what we do in martial arts training, but because we were conditioned to harm or be harmed, kill or be killed. As the Samurai philosophers discussed at length, the "way of the warrior is death". The willingness to take a hit, the willingness to be injured, the willingness to die... and, of course, the willingness to test that same willingness in your opponent, makes you a very dangerous person.

The largest difference I've seen between civilians and military is that, when the "poop" hits the fan, civilians tend to get nervous and anxious. Military types tend to get very calm and very serious.

Sweat in peace so you bleed less in combat So to speak...

I have found the same conclusions.

It is fine to have many techniques that you can perform in training well and give you confidence, but it is more important to remember that the foundation of your white belt/beginner material is really what counts - as long as you can do it when it counts.

It is impossible IMO to match the risk level, intensity and gravity of military style mental training for combat in civilian markets.

1. You are provided medical coverage, so the staff can really challenge you harder than someone that has to fear liability.

2. You 'live' it. It is part of your sworn duty/oath/job and is more immediate because you REALLY may have to do it as opposed to the 'maybe' of civilian life (Thank God we live that safe in general!).

3. Time. Back to the 'living it' idea. You wake up and you do PT with a fighting mentallity. You sit in a classroom and try to pay attention/stay awake by applying that fighting mentallity. You call commands/respond to commands/eat/poop....with a fighter's mentallity. 6-10 hours in the evening focusing on a form/perfecting your kicks only just can't get the same job done IMO.

4. Don't get me wrong here. I am NOT saying that Civilian training is all crap or that no civilian will ever match a military trained MA...only that Institution vs. Institution, there is no comparison: Military training is superior.

 

[Loki]

A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream possible. The other thing to consider is this: MA/Self Defense is more about commitment and grit than about 'artisiticness' so a person well versed in the mental and physical commitment to a handful of effective, simple and 'proven' applications would be someone I would want at my back over an 'artist' that can dance circles around that Military/Krav instructor IMO. The art of Martial arts is practiced in a medium of fear and mayhem....military training (especially a small force like IDF) has it over civilian practice hands down.

That's usually true. However, IDF Krav Maga instructors, the majority of them, are 18 year old kids who usually have no background in KM whatsoever, not even in any martial art necessarily, and are given the position of instructor. There are always exceptions, but these are the majority.

~ Loki

 

[loki09789]

That's usually true. However, IDF Krav Maga instructors, the majority of them, are 18 year old kids who usually have no background in KM whatsoever, not even in any martial art necessarily, and are given the position of instructor. There are always exceptions, but these are the majority.

~ Loki

I know that even in the US military the qualification are a pretty strike for instructors. The IDF is (or at least was) training for a more urgent situation with more likelihood of real application...I would doubt that your "18 and unqualified" fits the KM instructors of the IDF.

They may be young. THey may not have a totallity of KM training, but I would BET that they could tear up some ground and bodies with their limited knowledge as well as make sure that their student have a solid foundation that will be reinforced over time in service by future instructors.

I say this with the utmost respect, but remember to consider your source for this information: Is it from a civilian KM instructor speaking TO a civilian KM student/group? If so, it may have the agenda of creating a perception to counter the "only military people can be good at military arts" that can develop among civilian students.

KM, in both venues are solid self defense programs. As far as I know, though, Hagana is the IDF full H2H model. That came from a former member of the IDF who recieved IDF training as well as active involvement in civilian martial arts and has seen KM in the civilian world as well.

 

[Isrephael]

6-10 hours in the evening focusing on a form/perfecting your kicks only just can't get the same job done IMO.

6-10 hours in the evening? Jeebus! The "evening" doesn't even contain 10 hours, the last time I checked. I think that if you're training 10 hours a day/evening/whatever, you've officially transcended typical civilian training.

 

[Jerry]

A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream possible.

Illuminate me. What does a person have to do to qualify to instruct CQB in the armed servicces that I would not dream was poosible to do?

 

[loki09789]

6-10 hours in the evening? Jeebus! The "evening" doesn't even contain 10 hours, the last time I checked. I think that if you're training 10 hours a day/evening/whatever, you've officially transcended typical civilian training.

Sorry for the confusion. I meant 6-10 hours OF evenings during a given week. That figure only really works if you are working out 4 days a week 1.5 hours each day or there abouts. Less is probably more common.