McDojo offshoot

[Sylo]

I was also just thinking.

Parents are a major cause of the rise of the mcdojo.. not so much the schools themselves.. but the parents.

Why?

There seems to be some stigma that Martial arts schools are on the same level as Cheerleading, the football team, school band, The Glee Club, JROTC, 4H, FFA.. etc. They look at it as some "club" and their kid is just a member of this "club". Its not really a endurance inducing form of physical release. Its just something fun to do for an hr 2-3 times week. Something they can say "they do". To them its the same as being in the beta club, or taking piano lessons. Granted you have to work hard to excel in those as well. But there are certain aspects of the martial arts that make it something different, and it shouldn't be lowered to the level of commonplace that it has. There is no mysticism anymore. A black belt in TKD is as common as a decent tennis player.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I was also just thinking.

Parents are a major cause of the rise of the mcdojo.. not so much the schools themselves.. but the parents.

Why?

There seems to be some stigma that Martial arts schools are on the same level as Cheerleading, the football team, school band, The Glee Club, JROTC, 4H, FFA.. etc. They look at it as some "club" and their kid is just a member of this "club". Its not really a endurance inducing form of physical release. Its just something fun to do for an hr 2-3 times week. Something they can say "they do". To them its the same as being in the beta club, or taking piano lessons. Granted you have to work hard to excel in those as well. But there are certain aspects of the martial arts that make it something different, and it shouldn't be lowered to the level of commonplace that it has. There is no mysticism anymore. A black belt in TKD is as common as a decent tennis player.

I see it as more of a cause/effect thing that's 50% parents and 50% McDojo taking advantage.

If the parents didn't want to have immediate results, the McDojo wouldn't give immediate results. But then, if the McDojo didn't make these results this accessable, then the parents wouldn't grow to expect these results.

 

[Sylo]

I see it as more of a cause/effect thing that's 50% parents and 50% McDojo taking advantage.

If the parents didn't want to have immediate results, the McDojo wouldn't give immediate results. But then, if the McDojo didn't make these results this accessable, then the parents wouldn't grow to expect these results.

This is true.

So, a school.. somewhere and somepoint decided that..

"Hey, these parents are so naive. We could make loads more money if we just pass these kids up through the ranks and charge them for everything and treat it like summer camp"

once 1 school adopted this practice, it spread like marketing wildfire. And once it became commonplace with instructors/schools.. the parents accepted this as the standard as well and expect that everywhere they go.

I can't think of ONE ATA school in this area that doesn't practice these methods.. NOT one. If all of a sudden they started pushing their students hard, holding back students from testing, or just over all increasing the difficulty of the curriculum. They'd lose people left and right. To them its not a martial art.. its a after school hobby. They don't take it serious enough to work hard at it. Its kinda of like going to the gym because if your in a gym surely you are going to get in shape right? even if you don't really do anything while your there. Gyms are for getting fit! Martial Arts schools are for jumping around in white pajamas for an hr so you'll feel better inside.. lol

 

[GBlues]

Good post, GB, and deserves a fair reply. There are few key points here that really demand a response. So here's my take:




OK, I see several separate issues in this post. First of all, the issue of the number of techs. Second is the issue of the number of years. Third is the issue (not completely independent of the others) of what the time you spend in training is building toward. So far as the first is concerned: no, you don't need a huge number of techs; and a lot of people in the 'progressive kata-based combat' movement will tell you that. Naihanchi was all that Choki Motobu needed to be one of the most formidable TMA fighters of his day. But I don't read the number of years in training as being about accumulating a zillion different techs, but rather becoming completely, intuitively capable in relating your response to the particular requirements of an SD situation. Acquiring, that is, the ease and confidence to switch gears in mid-technique for whatever reason. Being 'at home' in combat, in a sense. Even with a very sharpened, refined toolkit, a huge amount of training is required to get to that point where the logic of the fight—whether to go inside or outside, what angle to take to close the difference, what the opimal target is—is immediately transparent to your fraction-of-a-second assessment. So now we get to the 'number of years' issue: the fact is, it takes people a long time to get to the point where they are, so to speak, 'autonomous agents' in a combat situation—where they have not just the resources, but control of those resources, understanding of how to use the resources, to defend themselves. Think of chess: how long does it take you to learn the moves? Not all that long. How long does it take you to learn some of the major openings? A good deal longer, but still, not more than few months, if you work hard at it. And then, how long does it take you to develop the tactical abilities to bring your forces to bear on your opponent's (possibly non-obvious) weakness, evade his or her defensive efforts, and break his or her countermoves? This last is how I think of the vast majority of time we spend in learning our craft, and so far as I can tell, for most people it really is a matter of years to get to that point.

But the third point, what you're working toward, seems to me to be something bigger still than this acquired combat instinct. What you're really working toward is an understanding of the body-logic, if I can put it like that, of unarmed combat, and how to boost that understanding by studying and experimenting with new training techniques, including novel ones such as creating your own kata, or training on broken, uneven ground in street clothes, new strategies to decipher the effective techniques concealed in old kata/hyungs/hsings, and so on. To me, reaching black belt simply means you have enough basic knowledge to start seriously experimenting on your own in these areas, and also that you have at least begun to develop a kind of holistic sense of the logic of a real fight situation, and have trained the physical capablity to carry out your solution to the problem posed by every physical attack scenario. And my sense is, you are not gonna get to that point in just a year or two....

Ok I want to clarify I guess. You are not going to use a 1000 techniques, in a real fight. You are probably going to use maybe a handful of techniques that you've learned over the course of your five or 6 year journey, in a real life confrontation. The things that you know the best, which if you've been doing it long enough, are going to be the basics. That's what you'll probably use. Not in all cases but most. That's how I feel about learning alot of techniques. Personally yeah it's cool, and one day I might need that one technique where I parry the attack, strike the ribs, blast the dudes ear drum, rip off his face, crush his throat, break his ankle, grab his wrist, flop him on the ground and break his arm, but....probably not. More than likely I probably killed the guy when I crushed his throat. This is the point, I understand that every technique builds upon the next, and the next, and the next, and so on and so forth. However, after a certain point it does become some what redundant, that I'm still working from the same haymaker, only now I've got 15 or 16 strikes going to the opponents body, that in reality, is and would be more than likely over kill, and nobody is just going to stand around and let you just pummel them without at least moving backwards, or trying to cover up, I don't care what anybody says.

THat is my point about the techniques. As far as being, 'autonomous agents', I personally would think that if you spent less time creating unproven techniques, that no one has ever had to use in a real life fight, then you could focus on honing your core skills, and becoming an autonomous agent. Which in reality does not take alot of time either. That simply takes sparring. Experience. If you know what targets to strike, how to get to them, what vehicle to use to get to them, it shouldn't matter, you should be able to hit those, with whatever weapon you have, if you understand the theory. In other words strike with the closest weapon to the opponent, always have a check, use this stance, learn movement, etc,etc. It is not necassary to drag it out, as long as is possible to continually recieve money from your students. I'm sorry. I don't see it taking 8 years in practicality to learn any martial art. I see an entire culture, that has been created so that anyone who is an instructor has the capability to continually bring income into there lives, to prevent losing money. In other words over time the martial arts have been structured in such a way, that even if you could teach it in two years or 3 years, it's going to take longer. Because of the mysticism, because of the continued addition of techniques and practices that many times are useless. And to further add problems they are then added to a particlular system so as that they are now required for your test. Wasn't in the original system, but has been added. Thus making it longer to achieve your goal of mastery. Yes black belt is the learning phase, really you have just started learning at blackbelt, however, you can not tell me that the martial arts as a whole have not been structured in such a way, that it would make it almost impossible to learn what was originally taught.

Good example, my understanding is that when Ed Parker first started teaching in the states there were only about 50-55 techniques to the whole system. Now if this were true,( and I don't know for sure that it is), then kenpo in and of itself is in my opinion a McDojo, the whole art, not the just one school, or one instructor the whole art. Apparently his students were asking for more techniques, and there were none, so he made them up. WHich is what good kenpo practitioners are supposed to be able to do, make up a technique on the fly, be spontaneous. However, they were then added into the core system. Why? I think it is great to encourage students to start thinking outside the box. Look you could also go into this, or do this, or maybe in one situation this technique as it is isn't working, but you can change it up and go into this. Ok, but that should be started early in your training to start gearing your mind towards that so that when you reach blackbelt you have been doing it long enough that you can create your own techniques in the middle of one, or change for a given situation. However, I don't feel that you should add or take away from a core set of techniques in a system, because it is in effect, intentionally holding back students to keep them there longer. To keep money coming in, that is the PROBLEM as I see it. THat is my interpretation of a McDojo. Simple.

Martial Arts is education in the use of violence, and non-violence to protect yourself. To say to some one, it's going to take you 10 years of hard study before you even begin to learn, is ludicrous. If you have a good school, and good curriculim, that people can get what they NEED, in a reasonable amount of time, you will always have students. If your stuck on it's going to take 5-8 years no matter what you do, or how good you are, and your system is continually adding more and more, techniques, how can anyone ever master? You haven't mastered the first 50, how can you get good at the next 950? Anyways, I'm going on a rant and probably still didn't make my point. I'm going to do something productive now. Okay so I forgot one last thing, and that is that there is no logic to a fight. If anybody thinks that there is your dead wrong. Fighting is not a logical act, it's an emotional act. Sometimes it's just a survival act, but logical in my opinion would be putting a serious stretch on a fight. My most humble and honest opinion.

 

[exile]

I don't think I was clear enough in the post you're responding to, GB, so let me just amplify a few key points, in no particular order:

Okay so I forgot one last thing, and that is that there is no logic to a fight. If anybody thinks that there is your dead wrong. Fighting is not a logical act, it's an emotional act. Sometimes it's just a survival act, but logical in my opinion would be putting a serious stretch on a fight.

When I talk about the logic of the fight, I mean, the logic of the fighting. And there definitely is a logic to that. Hikite in karate is a good example: given that you've just used one of your limbs to strike the attacker with, converting that striking limb into a controlling limb—a punching hand into a gripping hand, e.g.—while the other hand initiates a new strike—is logical, given the premises of the situation: to incapacitate the attacker in the shortest possible time at minimum risk to yourself. Giving up a 'tempo', as they say in chess, creates the danger of the attacker recovering enough to recommence the attack; hence, the most efficient use of your resources requires that you keep the hand you just used to attack with in play to set up a new attack. Or in the face of a roundhouse punch, logic again dictates that you counter by going inside, rather than outside, and that you close the distance, to take advantage of the attacker's defensive weakness in launching a large-radius punch. And so on. I'm talking about the biomechanical logic of attack and defense. I'm not talking about the rationality of the circumstances leading up to the combat, or your emotional state while you're involved in the fight; what I'm getting at is your ability to find the optimal move, optimal in an engineering sense, that either does maximum damage with minimum risk, or sets up the physical situation so that the continuation leads, as inevitably as possible, to your inflicting maximum damage with minimum risk on your attacker.

Ok I want to clarify I guess. You are not going to use a 1000 techniques, in a real fight. You are probably going to use maybe a handful of techniques that you've learned over the course of your five or 6 year journey, in a real life confrontation. The things that you know the best, which if you've been doing it long enough, are going to be the basics. That's what you'll probably use. Not in all cases but most. That's how I feel about learning alot of techniques. Personally yeah it's cool, and one day I might need that one technique where I parry the attack, strike the ribs, blast the dudes ear drum, rip off his face, crush his throat, break his ankle, grab his wrist, flop him on the ground and break his arm, but....probably not.

Right, but once again, I'm not talking about a large number of techniques. I've learned a relatively small number of techniques in the six years it took me to get to shodan, but a fight isn't a series of techniques against other techniques. It's a series of responses to a set of challenges, and those challenges can be any number of variants on a restricted set of nasty attacks. To get to the point where, no matter what your assailant does, you can see, and recognize, the openings you're getting and how to take advantage of them... that is going to take a much longer time than two years, unless you're training, under brutally noncompliant reality-based conditions, for five or six hours five or six times a week. And who does that, any more?

As far as being, 'autonomous agents', I personally would think that if you spent less time creating unproven techniques, that no one has ever had to use in a real life fight, then you could focus on honing your core skills, and becoming an autonomous agent. Which in reality does not take alot of time either. That simply takes sparring. Experience.

Two points here: first, the sparring side. If you want to use TMAs for self-defense, then you have to train under SD conditions, not sport-sparring conditions. And that means that you have to take on training in which your partners comes a good part of the way toward trying to seriously damage (and maybe kill) you. This has come up on another thread; just to save time, this was something I posted earlier this year in a still different thread on the relevant notion of sparring. I just want to emphasize that none of this is original with me; the really brilliant, dedicated combat professionals at the British Combat Association, and their American cousins like Peyton Quinn, have been the pioneers this way of making the TMAs street-effective (as they once unquestionably were, way back when).

Second, technique creation. It's not a matter of creating techniques, but of recovering techniques that have been lost or hidden by design. Take an innocent looking down block: left fist to right ear, and then down. Simple.... not: that movement is identical to what you get with the following: (i) upward arcing elbow strike to the head, or a very forcibly imposed pin on the attacker's extended arm, after you've reversed his grab on your shirt and retracted your fist (still holding his ex-gripping hand) to forcibly extend his arm. Slamming that elbow into his extended arm above the elbow is a very nasty surprise arm-lock for him; (ii) forward/downward spearing elbow strike (to the face, maybe?) with the elbow that was just used in the upward elbow strike; (iii) followup hammerfist to the throat. Do those moves smoothly, in quick succession, display it to a bunch of karate or TKD students or instructors, and you will get that connected sequence of moves identified, 10 times out of 10, as a down block. Typically, 'basic' TMA moves have a lot more going on than meets the eye, and different possibilities can be profitably exploited depending on the situation—but learning how to do so take a lot of time.

Every one of the common kihon techs can be decomposed in this way to reveal a wealth of really evilly brutal destructive techniques and combinations of techniques. The point is, a relatively small number of techs can be combined in a very large number of ways. And because each situation is different, it's a very good idea to explore all the ways you can combine these techs, under severely noncompliant conditions with a good imitation of a pathologically aggressive attacker.

My guess is that to become really secure at this, really good, quick, at ease and confident, is going to take way more than a couple of years. And I have no financial axe to grind here, GB: my instructor, who's a KKW-certified 5th dan, and I teach for free, twice a week. No one has made a dime from any of this, or wants to—and it still took me six years, and I don't feel it was even a little bit longer than it should have been. Different strokes, I suppose...

 

[GBlues]

I don't think I was clear enough in the post you're responding to, GB, so let me just amplify a few key points, in no particular order:



When I talk about the logic of the fight, I mean, the logic of the fighting. And there definitely is a logic to that. Hikite in karate is a good example: given that you've just used one of your limbs to strike the attacker with, converting that striking limb into a controlling limb—a punching hand into a gripping hand, e.g.—while the other hand initiates a new strike—is logical, given the premises of the situation: to incapacitate the attacker in the shortest possible time at minimum risk to yourself. Giving up a 'tempo', as they say in chess, creates the danger of the attacker recovering enough to recommence the attack; hence, the most efficient use of your resources requires that you keep the hand you just used to attack with in play to set up a new attack. Or in the face of a roundhouse punch, logic again dictates that you counter by going inside, rather than outside, and that you close the distance, to take advantage of the attacker's defensive weakness in launching a large-radius punch. And so on. I'm talking about the biomechanical logic of attack and defense. I'm not talking about the rationality of the circumstances leading up to the combat, or your emotional state while you're involved in the fight; what I'm getting at is your ability to find the optimal move, optimal in an engineering sense, that either does maximum damage with minimum risk, or sets up the physical situation so that the continuation leads, as inevitably as possible, to your inflicting maximum damage with minimum risk on your attacker.



Right, but once again, I'm not talking about a large number of techniques. I've learned a relatively small number of techniques in the six years it took me to get to shodan, but a fight isn't a series of techniques against other techniques. It's a series of responses to a set of challenges, and those challenges can be any number of variants on a restricted set of nasty attacks. To get to the point where, no matter what your assailant does, you can see, and recognize, the openings you're getting and how to take advantage of them... that is going to take a much longer time than two years, unless you're training, under brutally noncompliant reality-based conditions, for five or six hours five or six times a week. And who does that, any more?




Two points here: first, the sparring side. If you want to use TMAs for self-defense, then you have to train under SD conditions, not sport-sparring conditions. And that means that you have to take on training in which your partners comes a good part of the way toward trying to seriously damage (and maybe kill) you. This has come up on another thread; just to save time, this was something I posted earlier this year in a still different thread on the relevant notion of sparring. I just want to emphasize that none of this is original with me; the really brilliant, dedicated combat professionals at the British Combat Association, and their American cousins like Peyton Quinn, have been the pioneers this way of making the TMAs street-effective (as they once unquestionably were, way back when).

Second, technique creation. It's not a matter of creating techniques, but of recovering techniques that have been lost or hidden by design. Take an innocent looking down block: left fist to right ear, and then down. Simple.... not: that movement is identical to what you get with the following: (i) upward arcing elbow strike to the head, or a very forcibly imposed pin on the attacker's extended arm, after you've reversed his grab on your shirt and retracted your fist (still holding his ex-gripping hand) to forcibly extend his arm. Slamming that elbow into his extended arm above the elbow is a very nasty surprise arm-lock for him; (ii) forward/downward spearing elbow strike (to the face, maybe?) with the elbow that was just used in the upward elbow strike; (iii) followup hammerfist to the throat. Do those moves smoothly, in quick succession, display it to a bunch of karate or TKD students or instructors, and you will get that connected sequence of moves identified, 10 times out of 10, as a down block. Typically, 'basic' TMA moves have a lot more going on than meets the eye, and different possibilities can be profitably exploited depending on the situation—but learning how to do so take a lot of time.

Every one of the common kihon techs can be decomposed in this way to reveal a wealth of really evilly brutal destructive techniques and combinations of techniques. The point is, a relatively small number of techs can be combined in a very large number of ways. And because each situation is different, it's a very good idea to explore all the ways you can combine these techs, under severely noncompliant conditions with a good imitation of a pathologically aggressive attacker.

My guess is that to become really secure at this, really good, quick, at ease and confident, is going to take way more than a couple of years. And I have no financial axe to grind here, GB: my instructor, who's a KKW-certified 5th dan, and I teach for free, twice a week. No one has made a dime from any of this, or wants to—and it still took me six years, and I don't feel it was even a little bit longer than it should have been. Different strokes, I suppose...

Points awarded. I understand what your saying. I don't expect to get a blackbelt in 2 years. It's impractical for the art that I have chosen, but I think maybe some there is an intentional holding back of students, that's all. Thanks for the kind reply. I appreciate your feedback thank you.

 

[matt.m]

I have seen McDojo's and Traditional schools. I agree with Sylo, it is the "New Soccer Mom" club. I have seen mall demo's from commercial schools where the soccer moms were talking behind me. The theme is "My kid can kick higher than yours, will get promoted quicker, can break more, etc."

It almost made me throw up. I mean seriously. I have a few very dedicated students that have stayed in my Judo program since June of 2007. They are now freshly minted green belts. White, Yellow, Green. I just test them the day before Halloween. I have been doing Martial Arts for a long time in some way or another. I am a 2nd dan in Judo, a former Marine Corps L.I.N.E. training instructor, a 1st dan in MCMAP, and a brown belt in hapkido.

Belts are colors, it all comes down to the workout. The training, the mentality, dedication, etc. I am learning more about Judo as a 2nd dan then I ever learned in the Gup ranks. That is just how it goes.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I have seen McDojo's and Traditional schools. I agree with Sylo, it is the "New Soccer Mom" club. I have seen mall demo's from commercial schools where the soccer moms were talking behind me. The theme is "My kid can kick higher than yours, will get promoted quicker, can break more, etc."

It almost made me throw up. I mean seriously. I have a few very dedicated students that have stayed in my Judo program since June of 2007. They are now freshly minted green belts. White, Yellow, Green. I just test them the day before Halloween. I have been doing Martial Arts for a long time in some way or another. I am a 2nd dan in Judo, a former Marine Corps L.I.N.E. training instructor, a 1st dan in MCMAP, and a brown belt in hapkido.

Belts are colors, it all comes down to the workout. The training, the mentality, dedication, etc. I am learning more about Judo as a 2nd dan then I ever learned in the Gup ranks. That is just how it goes.

What you said here about soccor moms made me think...

My mom used to hate watching me at practice. She especially hated watching me spar...lol. It doesn't seem right that all of these small kids' mothers can be almost as competitive as they are about earning rank and kicking high.

 

[bluekey88]

Wow, some really cool discussion here. I wanted to get back at one of the questions the OP posed.

How does an instructor instill in students, exposed to the McDojo...we desreve rank...phenomenon to learn to savor training and be willing to wait for rank to come slower?

How do we make sure we don't push student up through the ranks when they don't deserve it? Can we do this and not lose business as the soccer moms pull their kids out of our classes and enroll them down the street at the local Mcdojo?

I don't have all the answers but I have a could ideas. First, I think it's all about culture and marketing. I came across a really intertestign interview on NPR the other day...I thinkon All things considered. The gentleman interviewed was a psychologist who specialized in psychological marketing. He studied what made advertising work and why. His research has made some fascintating discoveries.

Specifically, people tend to want to be like each other. it is the rare person who wants to stand out and be different. So, in the school, we do this by using uniforms, we have our rituals (how we start class, how we train, etc.) Those who come to our schools and stay adopt these rituals and become part of the crowd. So do their parents.

If you, as a teacher, want to make sure that tyour students internalize the message that wating for rank is better than rushing you have to send the message that this is what is expected of them. This message must also be communicated to the parents. Furthermore, it has to go beyond just telling them so. Ya gotta be sneaky

Put up signs or posters that say something to the effect that "Most students who train here take x amount of time to get to such and such a rank...these students have gobne on to be great bklakc belts" or whatever.

That in conjun ction with the repeated messaeg that this si what is expected and is the norm will put pressure on new students to want to be like everyone else and might innoculate against what other schools are doing.

Case in point, hotels that put up signs saying "Don't use towles unless you have to becasue it costs more money" tend to end up washing a TON of towels. However, when the sign in the bathroom reads "Most of our patrons hang their towels when they are thorugh" end up with a smaller alundry bill and save tons of $$.

I'm thinking a similar process might work here. Sublt emessages to bolster the overt messaged being set and use them to define the culture that our students ulitmately buy into.

Peace,
Erik

 

[BrandonLucas]

Wow, some really cool discussion here. I wanted to get back at one of the questions the OP posed.

How does an instructor instill in students, exposed to the McDojo...we desreve rank...phenomenon to learn to savor training and be willing to wait for rank to come slower?

How do we make sure we don't push student up through the ranks when they don't deserve it? Can we do this and not lose business as the soccer moms pull their kids out of our classes and enroll them down the street at the local Mcdojo?

I don't have all the answers but I have a could ideas. First, I think it's all about culture and marketing. I came across a really intertestign interview on NPR the other day...I thinkon All things considered. The gentleman interviewed was a psychologist who specialized in psychological marketing. He studied what made advertising work and why. His research has made some fascintating discoveries.

Specifically, people tend to want to be like each other. it is the rare person who wants to stand out and be different. So, in the school, we do this by using uniforms, we have our rituals (how we start class, how we train, etc.) Those who come to our schools and stay adopt these rituals and become part of the crowd. So do their parents.

If you, as a teacher, want to make sure that tyour students internalize the message that wating for rank is better than rushing you have to send the message that this is what is expected of them. This message must also be communicated to the parents. Furthermore, it has to go beyond just telling them so. Ya gotta be sneaky

Put up signs or posters that say something to the effect that "Most students who train here take x amount of time to get to such and such a rank...these students have gobne on to be great bklakc belts" or whatever.

That in conjun ction with the repeated messaeg that this si what is expected and is the norm will put pressure on new students to want to be like everyone else and might innoculate against what other schools are doing.

Case in point, hotels that put up signs saying "Don't use towles unless you have to becasue it costs more money" tend to end up washing a TON of towels. However, when the sign in the bathroom reads "Most of our patrons hang their towels when they are thorugh" end up with a smaller alundry bill and save tons of $$.

I'm thinking a similar process might work here. Sublt emessages to bolster the overt messaged being set and use them to define the culture that our students ulitmately buy into.

Peace,
Erik

I agree with you on the subtle message aspect, and I think that's a great way to get more parents and students on board.

First, though, I think we should break down exactly where most of the problems start with McDojo/McDojangs. As far as what I can tell, there are 3 major players with the McDojo/angs...the parent, the child, and the instructor. Most of the time, the marketing for the McDojo/ang isn't directed toward a possible adult student...it's usually directed toward the parent of a young child who is interested in enrolling them.

Now, the child really isn't going to be able to tell the difference, logically speaking, in whether or not they're receiving quality instruction and are getting what their parents' are paying for.

As far as the parent(s) go, a great deal depends on exactly what they're signing their child up for...is it to learn self defense? Is it to get them out of the house for an hour a day? Is it because the child is just not active and needs to do something? Is it because little Johnny down the street is enrolled in TKD, and they brag about how well he's doing? It could literally be any number of hundreds of reasons.

Ok, now from the instructor's point of view, as far as McDojangs are concerned: The instructor's number 1 objective is to have as many students as possible that stay interested for as long as possible...which is, actually, the one of the top goals for most instructors. The difference is that the McDojang instructor is willing to sacrifice anything in the name of money...whether that's the well-being of the child, the quality of instruction, the completeness of the cirriculum...etc...

Now, the instructor may start running into the issue of how to keep kids interested...and instead of talking to the parents about what is expected of everyone in class, they devise a way to keep the students enrolled by adding unneeded things into class or taking out necessary parts of the class.

All of this is more than likely done more from a business stand point than someone trying to "get one over" on the consumer.

So, what all of this is getting at, basically, is that in order to have quality instruction and schools, we should educate the parents and students as much as possible, and the parents should be encouraged to make their intentions clear as to what they are enrolling their child for...if they simply want their child to earn a black belt to add to the collection of merit badges, then the instructors may want to advise the parents that it's just not as simple as earning a merit badge.

 

[bluekey88]

Why not use McDojo tacgtics to run a successful school? McDojo's have crazy price sturctures (lots of clubs with extra fees)...but one thing they do is aggressive marketing thatr "educates" their consumers as to what good martial arts lessons are supposed to be...mainly what they're selling.

The majority of people who sign up for MA (kids and parents) knwo nothing of what MA is about. The use slick brochures, cool posters, lots of bells and whistles to create that strong supportive culture that says "this place is top nothc and you get what you pay for." Why not use slick marketing with cool poster, brochures that send the message that "THIS is what real MA is about. If you stick with us you will get whatyou pay for and this is what willr esult." Same education....different message.

Why do stand up school have to scrape by on donations, get run out of tiny garages, have beat up old equipment to be legit? Why can't a good school have th bells and whistles of th McDojo but also give value added top notch martial arts training?

Peace,
Erik

 

[Twin Fist]

because, like it or not, martial arts training is a luxury that many people wont pay for.

 

[dancingalone]

Why not use McDojo tacgtics to run a successful school? McDojo's have crazy price sturctures (lots of clubs with extra fees)...but one thing they do is aggressive marketing thatr "educates" their consumers as to what good martial arts lessons are supposed to be...mainly what they're selling.

The majority of people who sign up for MA (kids and parents) knwo nothing of what MA is about. The use slick brochures, cool posters, lots of bells and whistles to create that strong supportive culture that says "this place is top nothc and you get what you pay for." Why not use slick marketing with cool poster, brochures that send the message that "THIS is what real MA is about. If you stick with us you will get whatyou pay for and this is what willr esult." Same education....different message.

Why do stand up school have to scrape by on donations, get run out of tiny garages, have beat up old equipment to be legit? Why can't a good school have th bells and whistles of th McDojo but also give value added top notch martial arts training?

Peace,
Erik

It's hard to teach good martial arts in large numbers. In fact there's evidence to suggest line work was created in Japanese karate schools as a way of keeping large amounts of people moving and busy.

My teacher says he can't watch and correct technique properly when there are more than 5 people to be responsible for. Having felt his unwavering attention, I wouldn't have it any other way. When you have a proficient instructor criticizing every move you make, you tend to get better in a hurry or you quit. Such an approach obviously could not work in a commercial setting, and yes, if you use McDojo marketing, IMO you will become a McDojo eventually from your own success, ironically.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Parents who enroll their kids who see TKD or other MA's as an afterschool program activity like Boy/Girl Scouts are more than likely going to be the ones who want to see immediate results. They can be used to seeing their child earn merit badges for this achievement or that acheievement, and think that martial arts should reward their child with some sort of badge, or in this case, belts.

While I'm not a huge fan of doboks looking like a Christmas tree, I'd much rather a patch for every little thing than a belt. Patches, chevrons, stars, and stripes are essentially merit bages.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Just wow...

I hope this is not real.

(Safe for Work)

 

[karatemom]

:xtrmshock

 

[Windsinger]

I'm going to go curl up in a corner and cry, now. No wonder a lot of people have a negative view of TKD!

 

[matt.m]

Yep,

That video just made me speechless. That in and of itself is an incredible feat. However, I will remind myself that I want 40 seconds of my life back for watching it.

 

[matt.m]

You know it is horrible to think that people are greedy and don't properly set expectations. To be more ridiculous would be to be consistant with test grading.

I swear, it is just crazy. When new students come in I don't even talk about belt promotions with them. I set the expectation that we in Judo have 2 favorite things. 1....Falling, 2.....More falling followed by Judo pushups.

I tell the new folks, "Look, Judo is hard. However, you will test and do well if you work hard at it." "I test people when they are ready."

So with me there is no time period, there are no semesters, no tri-mesters, ect.

When parents ask I tell them "As so and so learns the material they will get better. Once they have the material down they will test."

 

[Tez3]

ooooooo I want throw chi balls at dragons!!

In this country the Trading Standards would take you to court for that advert as not being what is sold! Misleading though isn't the first word that came to mind when I saw it though.....!