Martial Ethics...still taught?

[kidswarrior]

You missed the major point of my post

There's two parts to education: teaching and learning. And what we are seeing in martial arts is a total lack of motivation of students to learn by adding things to what they're taught. Hence the continued creation of "martial arts" that try to teach everything and thus teaches nothing (and very badly at that).

OK, if your point was that the student must be responsible for learning, I can get on board with that. The teacher can only lead the student to the door; the learner must decide to step through.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK, if your point was that the student must be responsible for learning, I can get on board with that. The teacher can only lead the student to the door; the learner must decide to step through.

Yup

 

[JadeDragon3]

This is very interesting to me because I was just in a debate about this same topic on another chat forum (DL). I am a total believer in that not only should a martial art teacher teach a student how to fight and defend themselves but also teach the student certain ethics such as right and wrong. Most systems founders formed a "code of ethics" so to speak that it's practitioners should live by. Most schools have some type of creed or oath that they recite before and/or after class. My school had a student creed that we recited before each class. It went like this:

To build stength, honor, and courage within ourselves and one another.
To promote a strong and peacefull community through friendship, cooperation, and leadership.
Never misuse our knowledge or fight to achieve selfish ends.
But to develop might for right.


It is my believe that the job of a m.a. teacher is more than just teaching a person to fight. He should guide his students in being a better person. Its more than a student/teacher relationship. IMO it's like he's a father figure in a sense. My teacher was like a second dad to me. I (and other students) went to tournaments with him. We (and other students) would go out to eat after practice and/or go to the movies whenever a martial art movie would come out. We were like a big family only it was a martial art family. He would tell us students right from wrong. This is how I feel it should be.

I had people from this other forum (DL) tell me it isn't the place of the teacher to try to tell thier students how to live and that he/she shouldn't force thier beliefs on the students. They also said that what the teacher thinks is right and wrong may not be true or hold true for someone else. I finally just gave up on the subject. Whats your all's oppinion on what I have said?

 

[Steel Tiger]

I had people from this other forum (DL) tell me it isn't the place of the teacher to try to tell thier students how to live and that he/she shouldn't force thier beliefs on the students. They also said that what the teacher thinks is right and wrong may not be true or hold true for someone else. I finally just gave up on the subject. Whats your all's oppinion on what I have said?

While it is true that what one person considers to be right or wrong may be different to what another person might think, there are basic considerations that go into making that determination. If I am teaching someone methods with which they can potentially kill another person I am going to make sure that my student understands, at least at a basic level, what that might mean. I am not going to spoon feed them my opinion of right and wrong, but I am going to give them the tools to make informed decisions for themselves.

I don't think this is telling people how to live or forcing them to conform to my version of the world, that isn't ethical afterall. I am merely giving them the level, they can move the world as they see fit.

 

[JadeDragon3]

While it is true that what one person considers to be right or wrong may be different to what another person might think, there are basic considerations that go into making that determination. If I am teaching someone methods with which they can potentially kill another person I am going to make sure that my student understands, at least at a basic level, what that might mean. I am not going to spoon feed them my opinion of right and wrong, but I am going to give them the tools to make informed decisions for themselves.

I don't think this is telling people how to live or forcing them to conform to my version of the world, that isn't ethical afterall. I am merely giving them the level, they can move the world as they see fit.

I agree with you. You (as a teacher) can give your students the tools (knowledge) to make enformed decisions.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I had people from this other forum (DL) tell me it isn't the place of the teacher to try to tell thier students how to live and that he/she shouldn't force thier beliefs on the students. They also said that what the teacher thinks is right and wrong may not be true or hold true for someone else. I finally just gave up on the subject. Whats your all's oppinion on what I have said?

My very first Martial Arts teacher was Jujitsu and I think I may have already talked about him in this post, but he instilled in me a lot of the Martial Arts Ethics I have today and he did not force his Beliefs on anyone nor did he did not tell us what he thought was right or wrong but he told us things that had happened to him and they were not the stories of how he beat this guy or defeated another they were stories about when he ran away and through this he taught us how serious a real fight is. He also did form time to time explain to us the seriousness of fighting and the consequences of that but he never forced anything on us. We also all knew he was highly skilled and very few doubted his ability to defend himself or his skill at Jujitsu.

As far as I am concerned I could not asked or found a better teacher to start my martial arts training with.

 

[funnytiger]

One of the things that really attracted me to MA (CMA in particular) was the ethical/spiritual/moral aspects of it. It wasn't just about fighting or learning how to to fight. It was about learning when to fight and how to be a better person.

Five years later in a traditional school and I'm not sure I buy it anymore.

I've seen that kind of thinking used as a means to look down on others (a direct contradiction, I know) or witnessed the double standards that come along with it and I just don't know how I feel about it anymore.

At times it comes across as a "holier than thou" kind of thing. I don't know.

There is a part of me that longs for a school where you just come, do you thing and then leave.

-ft

 

[JadeDragon3]

One of the things that really attracted me to MA (CMA in particular) was the ethical/spiritual/moral aspects of it. It wasn't just about fighting or learning how to to fight. It was about learning when to fight and how to be a better person.

Five years later in a traditional school and I'm not sure I buy it anymore.

I've seen that kind of thinking used as a means to look down on others (a direct contradiction, I know) or witnessed the double standards that come along with it and I just don't know how I feel about it anymore.

At times it comes across as a "holier than thou" kind of thing. I don't know.

There is a part of me that longs for a school where you just come, do you thing and then leave. -ft

Well then go to another school if you don't feel that they are sincere in what they preach/teach. Although I feel the CMA is the best thing around due to it's philosophy and thinking.

 

[Xue Sheng]

ethical/spiritual/moral aspects

I have never seen this as something overt in any CMA but that is not to say it is not there

Well then go to another school if you don't feel that they are sincere in what they preach/teach. Although I feel the CMA is the best thing around due to it's philosophy and thinking.

Agreed

 

[Steel Tiger]

One of the things that really attracted me to MA (CMA in particular) was the ethical/spiritual/moral aspects of it. It wasn't just about fighting or learning how to to fight. It was about learning when to fight and how to be a better person.

Five years later in a traditional school and I'm not sure I buy it anymore.

I've seen that kind of thinking used as a means to look down on others (a direct contradiction, I know) or witnessed the double standards that come along with it and I just don't know how I feel about it anymore.

At times it comes across as a "holier than thou" kind of thing. I don't know.

There is a part of me that longs for a school where you just come, do you thing and then leave.

-ft

This is one of the great dilemmas of presenting an ethical point of view, perhaps the greatest. This is especially so for those of us of European ancestry. We have been instilled, through our culture, to compare and contrast things, to set them against one another to see the differences. This generally leads to conclusions of one thing being better than another.

When this is done with philosophy and ethical and moral positions you end up with the situation you described. There is an old saying that those who know the most about a system or code of beliefs are likely to be the ones who conform to it the least.

 

[Flying Crane]

Most systems founders formed a "code of ethics" so to speak that it's practitioners should live by. Most schools have some type of creed or oath that they recite before and/or after class.

I gotta disagree with you here. I've had numerous martial arts teachers, and none have had a code of ethics or a creed to recite or oath or anything. A lot of the arts were developed during times when life was dangerous, and one needed to defend one's very life on a regular basis. The methods were meant to do serious damage and kill, and that's it. I don't believe these founders tried to attach any code of ethics. I think the code of ethics is really a modern development, as society has become safer and people have had the leisure to ponder this issue.

In my opinion, you can simply learn from the teacher thru his example, assuming you even need the instruction. I believe most reasonable adults don't need the instruction, and most kids ought to be getting the instruction from their parents.

But at any rate, when the teacher says "so if you do THIS to the guy, it leaves his neck broken and could very well kill him, so it's serious", that's a lesson in a way even if he isn't deliberately teaching ethics. He's shown you something deadly, and he's indicated it's serious. You need to put two and two together and recognize that this isn't something you do to someone who bumps you in the local pub. If you aren't smart enough to make that connection without someone spelling it out for you, then you probably need more instruction in ethics and social behavior than your sifu can give you.

 

[funnytiger]

Well then go to another school if you don't feel that they are sincere in what they preach/teach. Although I feel the CMA is the best thing around due to it's philosophy and thinking.

It is not a lack of sincerity that is the problem, its more like a difference of opinion.

I don't SOLELY go to my school for a lesson in ethics so I don't see it necessary to leave. There are more than a handful of things that the school has to offer that keep me coming back.

This is one of the great dilemmas of presenting an ethical point of view, perhaps the greatest. This is especially so for those of us of European ancestry. We have been instilled, through our culture, to compare and contrast things, to set them against one another to see the differences. This generally leads to conclusions of one thing being better than another.

When this is done with philosophy and ethical and moral positions you end up with the situation you described. There is an old saying that those who know the most about a system or code of beliefs are likely to be the ones who conform to it the least.

Good post!

I have never seen this as something overt in any CMA but that is not to say it is not there

Family structure, fighting philosophies, respecting the founders and each other, etc. You don't find that overt?

That is more specific to TCMA, but I didn't think it was necessary to split hairs.

Just sharing my thoughts.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Family structure, fighting philosophies, respecting the founders and each other, etc. You don't find that overt?

That is more specific to TCMA, but I didn't think it was necessary to split hairs.

Just sharing my thoughts.

I think I get where Xue is coming from because my experience is simliar. All those things you mentioned were there but they were pushed, as it were. Its not like we all lined up and recited an oath or set of guiding principles as some TKD and Karate schools do.

My teacher created a set of guiding principles for his school, but they were never discussed, they were part of what we did. They did occur on the first page of the curriculum handbook, but that didn't mean we had to read them.

My teacher's teacher was, and is, always referred to as Chan Lao Shi (Teacher Chan), but no big deal was ever made of it (to this day I still don't know Chan Lao Shi's full name, and due to certain circumstances the lineage cannot be traced so our style begins with him even though he was not the founder). It is just part of the whole structure. Its not something that stands out and seems added on.

The most overt thing we did from an ethical/moral/philosophical point of view was a written test requirement at one of the higher level to know something of Taoist philosophy.

I think what I am trying to say is that is CMAs the ethical considerations, whatever they may be, are rolled into the nature of Chinese style teaching so they are less obvious than with Japanese or Korean style teaching.

 

[Xue Sheng]

ethical/spiritual/moral aspects

Family structure, fighting philosophies, respecting the founders and each other, etc. You don't find that overt?
That is more specific to TCMA, but I didn't think it was necessary to split hairs.

Not in almost 17 years of CMA have I ever gone to a class and ever has any lessons or training in any of this and that is training with multiple sifus and one for almost 14 years now.

I think I get where Xue is coming from because my experience is simliar. All those things you mentioned were there but they were pushed, as it were. Its not like we all lined up and recited an oath or set of guiding principles as some TKD and Karate schools do.

My teacher created a set of guiding principles for his school, but they were never discussed, they were part of what we did. They did occur on the first page of the curriculum handbook, but that didn't mean we had to read them.

My teacher's teacher was, and is, always referred to as Chan Lao Shi (Teacher Chan), but no big deal was ever made of it (to this day I still don't know Chan Lao Shi's full name, and due to certain circumstances the lineage cannot be traced so our style begins with him even though he was not the founder). It is just part of the whole structure. Its not something that stands out and seems added on.

The most overt thing we did from an ethical/moral/philosophical point of view was a written test requirement at one of the higher level to know something of Taoist philosophy.

I think what I am trying to say is that is CMAs the ethical considerations, whatever they may be, are rolled into the nature of Chinese style teaching so they are less obvious than with Japanese or Korean style teaching.

Exactly it is, as I have said many times, intrinsic

 

[funnytiger]

Not in almost 17 years of CMA have I ever gone to a class and ever has any lessons or training in any of this and that is training with multiple sifus and one for almost 14 years now.

I'm not sure what your point is here Xue Sheng.

I never said I had a lesson on this, but I have been witness to sifus (including mine) discuss such things in great lengths with their students.

I think I get where Xue is coming from because my experience is simliar. All those things you mentioned were there but they were pushed, as it were. Its not like we all lined up and recited an oath or set of guiding principles as some TKD and Karate schools do.

My teacher created a set of guiding principles for his school, but they were never discussed, they were part of what we did. They did occur on the first page of the curriculum handbook, but that didn't mean we had to read them.

My teacher's teacher was, and is, always referred to as Chan Lao Shi (Teacher Chan), but no big deal was ever made of it (to this day I still don't know Chan Lao Shi's full name, and due to certain circumstances the lineage cannot be traced so our style begins with him even though he was not the founder). It is just part of the whole structure. Its not something that stands out and seems added on.

The most overt thing we did from an ethical/moral/philosophical point of view was a written test requirement at one of the higher level to know something of Taoist philosophy.

I think what I am trying to say is that is CMAs the ethical considerations, whatever they may be, are rolled into the nature of Chinese style teaching so they are less obvious than with Japanese or Korean style teaching.

My reply is the same to you Steel Tiger, it may not be as overt as it is in JMAs or KMAs but as you said, it's still there.

I'm not sure why I am having to defend my thoughts. I only posted them to share my viewpoint on the subject.

My experiences are obviously different than the two of you, but that doesn't make them wrong or exceptional.

- ft

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not sure what your point is here Xue Sheng.

I never said I had a lesson on this, but I have been witness to sifus (including mine) discuss such things in great lengths with their students.

My point was to respond to your statement of

Family structure, fighting philosophies, respecting the founders and each other, etc. You don't find that overt?

That is more specific to TCMA, but I didn't think it was necessary to split hairs.

Just sharing my thoughts.

You asked me a direct question and I responded

I am not splitting hairs and if this has been your experience that is great, it has not been mine. I am not arguing or trying to start a problem here I am just not agreeing with your statement based on my experience and if your experience is different as I have said that is great.

It is there but it is intrinsic and generally seen or learned by example.

I would like to ask this though are the sifus discussing this to great length born raised and trained on Mainland China?

 

[kidswarrior]

Not in almost 17 years of CMA have I ever gone to a class and ever has any lessons or training in any of this and that is training with multiple sifus and one for almost 14 years now.

...it is, as I have said many times, intrinsic

I believe this is often how good classes are run in K-12 situations as well. The culture of a class (including ethical expectations) is just caught, more than overtly taught. Takes a little more time, but also runs deeper. I realize I'm inserting this into the middle of your gentle men's discussion, but have found it true for a long time in whatever teaching setting, so thought it worth sharing.

 

[JadeDragon3]

Martial art ethics were always taught and stressed in the school I took classes at. My teacher John Dufresne always taught us students to be polite, curtious, and never misuse our martial art knowledge or fight for personal gain or to bully. He always stressed that it was to be used for self defense only. He would always give us students a little history of our style and also give us a little bit of knowledge on the Chinese culture. He taught us to always respect our elders.

I don't know if this is still taught or if it is how many schools still do teach this. If it isn't still taught it should be IMO. I feel that if you are going to teach something that has the potential to hurt someone then you should give them the tools to know how to act and use those tools so that no one gets hurt unless they absolutely have to. Just my thought on it.