Martial Ethics...still taught?

[AceHBK]

I remember there being a thread on martial ethics a long time ago in another section on the board but I am making this one to focus on the martial ethics of CMA's

Are they evern still taught nowadays in schools and do you stress and teach them as well?

I thought about it while watching the tv show Wing Chin. It is a continuation of the movie The Prodigal Son but this time Yuen Biao is grown with 2 20 something year old sons and refuses to teach Wing Cun. Sammo also joins the tv show. Great showing of WC I must admit. Definately something to order and watch since it only came on tv in China.

But in the tv show there is a lot of talk and emphasis on martial ethics an how one should be. I see that in CMA's it is something that is highly stressed. Do you think as time has gone on we all have forgotten that part of it? Have we all missed some of the major philosophical aspects of martial arts just to focus on self defense (and for others...beat someone up). If you went your whole life without using your MA would you be happy or kinda sad that you couldnt apply it in a real situation?

I hate to admit that a tv show made me think about the reasons why we learn MA as well as what do we get from it? Do we just learn how to fight or do we learn how not to fight and how to act?

Your thoughts?

 

[Sukerkin]

Any time you learn something that has the potential to harm someone else then you have a duty to take on board a certain ethical restraint too.

For me, if I could go my whole life without having to use what martial skills I have on someone else I would be very happy - after all, "defence" comes in many forms and avoiding troble in the first place is the best of all.

Sadly, it's too late for me as my 'record' is already blotted. But I can still hope to make the rest of my life without having to get physical in an unpleasant way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am short on time right now but I will say Sanda is basically for one thing, fighting and yet my sanda sifu will teach no one he feels will use it for figthing. If you want to use it to hurt other people he will not teach you . If you want to use it to keep in shape and defend yourself and family if necessary then he will teach and then only if he knows and trusts you

 

[kidswarrior]

Well said Skn, as usual. Am totally in agreement.

X S, hats off to your Sanda Sifu, and you for studying with such a person. :asian: This is what I aspire to be as a teacher also. Ace, unfortunately, I haven't seen this with all CMA schools.

 

[terryl965]

Any time you learn something that has the potential to harm someone else then you have a duty to take on board a certain ethical restraint too.

For me, if I could go my whole life without having to use what martial skills I have on someone else I would be very happy - after all, "defence" comes in many forms and avoiding troble in the first place is the best of all.

Sadly, it's too late for me as my 'record' is already blotted. But I can still hope to make the rest of my life without having to get physical in an unpleasant way.

Excellent post

 

[AceHBK]

Thanks for te responses.

It makes you wonder though that a lot of people taking up MA now want to fighters and don't care about the whole moral aspect of it. It seems like the culture is more of trying to prove oneself against others.

Xue .... you said that your Sanda teacher will turn down some perspective students. I wonder how many other Masters do the samething or just say "money is money...im here to get paid". Makes you think because later on down the line that same student who may not have good ethical qualitites could end up becoming a master himself and opening a school with that same mentality and that cause an even greater harm.

Do you teach MA's as a lifestyle or just the self defense aspect?
Do there still exists the MA teacher that teaches you self defense, ethics, healing medicine, etc?

We always tell people to check out schools and make sure it isnt a McDojo and to sit down and speak with the instructors to guage how they are as an individual. It makes me wonder how many instructors sit down with perspective students and learn their background and say "yes I will accept you" or "sorry, i may not be the best instructor for you"

Question.....
If you had your choice which would you go with

A) Instructor who didn't teach martial ethics but from what you could tell, produced great fighters
B) Instructor that taught martial ethics but the fighters u saw weren't that great.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks for te responses.
Xue .... you said that your Sanda teacher will turn down some perspective students. I wonder how many other Masters do the samething or just say "money is money...im here to get paid". Makes you think because later on down the line that same student who may not have good ethical qualitites could end up becoming a master himself and opening a school with that same mentality and that cause an even greater harm.

My Sanda sifu has had few students outside of his family and he does not run an official school and I knew him for a while before I even new he did sanda. He only tells people, outside of is family, that he already knows and trusts.

I recently tried to get him to open a small school because I know a few people that are looking for something like Sanda and in today’s world he could make a bundle but he refused. As he said he has a fulltime job and Sanda (to him) is not about money. As a related side to this, my taiji sifu says much the same thing when you talk to him about expanding his school, Taiji is not about money, but he has a full time job too.

Question.....
If you had your choice which would you go with

A) Instructor who didn't teach martial ethics but from what you could tell, produced great fighters
B) Instructor that taught martial ethics but the fighters u saw weren't that great.

Neither

EDIT

I had to add to this after thinking about it a bit

I have never had a CMA sifu that openly taught ethics as part of the curriculum it is more of a by example thing and it is VERY hard to look at a CMA class, in my experience, and tell right away how the teacher is teaching. Looking for ethics in CMA to me is much like spirituality it is intrinsic and not overt in most cases

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well said Skn, as usual. Am totally in agreement.

. Ace, unfortunately, I haven't seen this with all CMA schools.

My first CMA sifu will teach anybody anything for a buck, fortunately these days what he teaches is pretty useless

 

[Steel Tiger]

It makes you wonder though that a lot of people taking up MA now want to fighters and don't care about the whole moral aspect of it. It seems like the culture is more of trying to prove oneself against others..

There is a cultural consideration at variance here as well. Martial arts in the west have traditionally been about just learning how to fight, whether that be for protection or for prizes. The Marquis of Queensbury introduced rules, not to sanitise and give an ethical position to the art of Defence, but to limit the successes of the Scottish and French who were expert in kicking. It wasn't about behaving properly it was about effectiveness and money.

In ancient Greece, athletes were professionals in a sense we would understand today. They fought for money, it was how they made a living or supplimented their incomes, but they weren't necessarily nice guys. some of the most successful and famous Olympic wrestlers were bullies and brutes who terrorised their hometowns but were still praised for winning the Olympics.

Compare that to the traditional CMA student. They made a commitment to not only learn from their teacher but to obey him. Many lived with their teachers and took care of them in exchange for the knowledge imparted. It is true that China had many men who we would consider professional prize fighters as well, but I would think that if their teachers told them not to fight they would at least think very hard about if not just stop fighting.

It is clear that ethics and morality in the fighting arts were important to the Chinese or they would not have so many tales about noble warriors (Youxia) travelling the country righting wrongs. The Chinese clearly expected something more from martial artists than did the west. Unfortunately , they usually didn't get it. Here is a Tang Dynasty poem which sums things up (kinda)

For ten years I have been polishing this sword;
Its frosty edge has never been put to the test.
Now I am holding it and showing it to you, sir:
Is there anyone suffering from injustice?

The Swordsman - Jia Dao

Do you teach MA's as a lifestyle or just the self defense aspect?
Do there still exists the MA teacher that teaches you self defense, ethics, healing medicine, etc?.

My teacher teaches fighting and traditional medicine. He has always tried to impart the ethical concepts of Taoist philosophy even though he does not teach either ethics or philosophy directly.

We always tell people to check out schools and make sure it isnt a McDojo and to sit down and speak with the instructors to guage how they are as an individual. It makes me wonder how many instructors sit down with perspective students and learn their background and say "yes I will accept you" or "sorry, i may not be the best instructor for you".

There is a big difference between "talking the talk" and "walking the walk". I would bet that a lot of McDojo instructors can do a pretty convincing "talk the talk", its part of how they convince mothers to let their children join the class. So talking with them would not get you very far I guess. I know that I sit down with students and explain what training is going to involve (that's seems to be where I lose most prospective students, maybe I should stop doing that), but I do not speak of ethics or morality.

 

[kidswarrior]

I have never had a CMA sifu that openly taught ethics as part of the curriculum it is more of a by example thing and it is VERY hard to look at a CMA class, in my experience, and tell right away how the teacher is teaching. Looking for ethics in CMA to me is much like spirituality it is intrinsic and not overt in most cases

My teacher... has always tried to impart the ethical concepts of Taoist philosophy even though he does not teach either ethics or philosophy directly.

This communication-without-communicating is a dying art in the West, even (especially?) in public schools. There is the information, which is directly taught. Then there is the real learning, which can only be caught. The latter takes time and patience, things the public seems to have little of whether for MA or children's development.

 

[Sukerkin]

Nice expression there, my friend, about the distinction between information and learning. It strikes me that it is similar to the difference between intelligence and wisdom.

In my younger years, I was cursed with a surfeit of intelligence, which, tho' I was shy, made me think that I knew better than those who were decades my senior (particularly my father). As I grew up, I came to realise that tho' I might know more than those who had been around longer than me, I did not really understand more.

Where this touches on eithics is tied into the old phrase "You were too busy thinking whether you could to consider whether you should". I'm sure that that comes from a film or sci-fi series or somesuch but that doesn't make it any less an excellent precis of what an ethical martial artist should avoid.

 

[grydth]

I had the aggressive know-it-alls, too, at a young age.

My father told me that he noticed I was very quick with words or fists.... but that I should consider that just because I could do something did not mean that I should do it. Hmmmmmm

Then another time I was spoiling for a fight, I am sure because of some trivial set back in life, when I ran across a friend who had suffered a genuine tragedy. After helping her, I was shocked to learn that I felt even better - much better in fact - than if I'd spread misery to somebody else. Hmmmmmm again - even I could learn from this.

I have had very few preacher type martial artist teachers, and yet anyone could see how they lived their lives and what they stood for. Actions, not words, define us.

 

[Sukerkin]

Can't rep you at present, Grydth but I oh so agree with your last there :tup:.

I would perhaps modify it to extend to intentions tho'. I know some of my actions have been prompted by the best of intentions and ended up being misinterpreted.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This communication-without-communicating is a dying art in the West, even (especially?) in public schools. There is the information, which is directly taught. Then there is the real learning, which can only be caught. The latter takes time and patience, things the public seems to have little of whether for MA or children's development.

Nicely put.

Both of the sifus I am referring to by the way are from China one North one South one has been at this for over 30 years the other for over 50 years.

But the one from the South's teacher was from the North and North people do not talk much they expect more following and use few words to get the point across, they tend to be direct. Both are actually and they are, as you put it, very good at getting the point across without communicating per say. But I think I am beginning to take this off topic so I will stop here.

Nice expression there, my friend, about the distinction between information and learning. It strikes me that it is similar to the difference between intelligence and wisdom.

In my younger years, I was cursed with a surfeit of intelligence, which, tho' I was shy, made me think that I knew better than those who were decades my senior (particularly my father). As I grew up, I came to realise that tho' I might know more than those who had been around longer than me, I did not really understand more.

Where this touches on eithics is tied into the old phrase "You were too busy thinking whether you could to consider whether you should". I'm sure that that comes from a film or sci-fi series or somesuch but that doesn't make it any less an excellent precis of what an ethical martial artist should avoid.

I was VERY guilty of this not to long ago with my Taiji sifu, we had a bit of a falling out that came from both sides of the fence actually but my contribution to the problem was thinking I knew more than him and that I knew what I needed to learn better than he did... He had trained Taiji and ONLY Taiji for over 50 years and I had been in MA for over 30 and in Taiji as his student for about 12 years at the time... I was wrong

I would like to take this away from CMA for just a minute to mention my first Sensei (first MA teacher) in Jujitsu that time and time again impressed me with his skill at Jujitsu in class but never once told any of us about any time that he used Jujitsu outside of class. HE only told us about the times he ran away and instilled in us that fighting was a very serious thing that if you did choose to fight that you had to live with the consequences of your actions. That was over 30 years ago and I still remember these lessons. I owe a lot to my first Sensei when it comes to MA ethics.

 

[AceHBK]

Some very good imputs put up by you all.

I know we all say actions ar elouder than words and I certainly agree but with so many kids starting MA's at such a young a ge, instructors end up being a sort of parent and have to teach some lessons to their students. I think leading a certainly lifestyle is important but also explaining things also helps put certain things that maybe unclear into perspective. I know at 30 sometimes I need an explanation even after watching b/c I don't totally grasp the whole idea. Funny for me that after watching this particular tv show made me rethink a lot of things.

I know with asian MA's, ethics and morality were more of a foundation but is it now something that has gone away due to instructors not wanting the responsibility? Part of me feels that if you take the responsibility in teaching someone MA's you must also teach them the value's that come along with it in hopes they soak it up as well.

Steel Tiger you make a good point b/c after watching different MA movies made in the U.S. as compared to Asia you see a difference in how MA's is approached. I wonder how much of a role does religion play in it.

I think it was the ethics and morals lessons that attracted me to Chinese MA's since I was a child. The movies that told stories of Wong Fei Hung and others using MA as a last resort and Kung Fu masters also being skilled at healing people was the embodiment of MA's. I feel bad that these other things aren't stressed more often.

 

[AceHBK]

Nicely put.
I was VERY guilty of this not to long ago with my Taiji sifu, we had a bit of a falling out that came from both sides of the fence actually but my contribution to the problem was thinking I knew more than him and that I knew what I needed to learn better than he did... He had trained Taiji and ONLY Taiji for over 50 years and I had been in MA for over 30 and in Taiji as his student for about 12 years at the time... I was wrong

I would like to take this away from CMA for just a minute to mention my first Sensei (first MA teacher) in Jujitsu that time and time again impressed me with his skill at Jujitsu in class but never once told any of us about any time that he used Jujitsu outside of class. HE only told us about the times he ran away and instilled in us that fighting was a very serious thing that if you did choose to fight that you had to live with the consequences of your actions. That was over 30 years ago and I still remember these lessons. I owe a lot to my first Sensei when it comes to MA ethics.

You know you don't find that too much nowadays. It is all about showing trophies and certificates when you go to a school. I understand schools needing to do so b/c it is what impresses parents and students to join the school.

 

[oxy]

The trick to ethics is to learn by yourself if necessary. Ethics are being taught in a variety of places and not just the traditional teacher-student relationship.

Just like your English teacher probably doesn't teach you Calculus, so shouldn't martial arts teachers be expected to (and I say nor should they) teach ethics.

There are too many people trying to teach-it-all and too many people trying to look for some all-knowing source. Never worked before and never will.

 

[kidswarrior]

Just like your English teacher probably doesn't teach you Calculus, so shouldn't martial arts teachers be expected to (and I say nor should they) teach ethics.

There are too many people trying to teach-it-all and too many people trying to look for some all-knowing source. Never worked before and never will.

But your English teacher should teach you the power of words, including syntax, semantics, etc. and what the outcome might be by changing things around. For example, the cliched You are nowhere. The meaning will be drastically different depending on where we place the break in the last word: is it 'no' or 'now'?

Just so, the MA teacher imho should 'teach' (model, imply, state, whatever works for teacher and student) the power of the subject she or he is teaching. This power can work for good or not so good outcomes, and some of the responsibility for this falls on the teacher.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Steel Tiger you make a good point b/c after watching different MA movies made in the U.S. as compared to Asia you see a difference in how MA's is approached. I wonder how much of a role does religion play in it.

How much of a role does religion play? Its a funnny thing, before the true explosion of Christianity ethics and morality could be viewed without reference to religion. The Greek philosophers did not phrase their thoughts in terms of gods or worship, Marcus Aurelius wrote about Stoicism without associating it intimately with religion.

In China ethical considerations do not have to be tied to religion. Of course, from a Buddhist perspective they are because an ethical code is central to Buddhism, but remember that Buddhism did not start life as a religion but as a moral and ethical philosophy (Siddhartha was a Hindu and recognised the existence of the Hindu gods). Taoism also started as a philosophical understanding of the world to which were later added religious aspects following China's animistic and polytheistic beliefs.

Nowadays it seems that the question of morality is intimately connected to religion, especially in the west. The Judeo/Christian/Islamic religious posture has usurped ethics and morality to such a degree it is almost impossible to separate them.

But with the large numbers of atheists and non-Christians abounding in the west now, and in martial arts specifically, an individual teacher can choose how to approach this subject. He can present a position based entirely on his faith, he can present a position partially based on his faith, or he can just ignore it altogether. Religion has an effect, but it is not the same kind of effect you might have found in the 16th or 17th centuries. It is no longer all-pervading.

But your English teacher should teach you the power of words, including syntax, semantics, etc. and what the outcome might be by changing things around. For example, the cliched You are nowhere. The meaning will be drastically different depending on where we place the break in the last word: is it 'no' or 'now'?

Just so, the MA teacher imho should 'teach' (model, imply, state, whatever works for teacher and student) the power of the subject she or he is teaching. This power can work for good or not so good outcomes, and some of the responsibility for this falls on the teacher.

Have to agree with you here.

I'm not going to improve a child's vocabulary without showing them how to use those words and, to a lesser extent, the effect of that word use.

Equally I'm not going to teach someone fighting techniques without showing how to apply them and the consequences of that application.

It may not be ethics in a formal sense but it is still ethical.

 

[oxy]

But your English teacher should teach you the power of words, including syntax, semantics, etc. and what the outcome might be by changing things around. For example, the cliched You are nowhere. The meaning will be drastically different depending on where we place the break in the last word: is it 'no' or 'now'?

Just so, the MA teacher imho should 'teach' (model, imply, state, whatever works for teacher and student) the power of the subject she or he is teaching. This power can work for good or not so good outcomes, and some of the responsibility for this falls on the teacher.

You missed the major point of my post in that if your martial arts teacher isn't teaching ethics, then learn ethics on your own (I personally can't see any other way to learn ethics, but to each their own).

My point about english and calculus teachers were to add a related point that teachers, be they of martial arts or not, shouldn't be expected to teach everything. And also that students really shouldn't expect teachers to teach everything and to shoulder the responsibility for the student's own learning.

There's two parts to education: teaching and learning. And what we are seeing in martial arts is a total lack of motivation of students to learn by adding things to what they're taught. Hence the continued creation of "martial arts" that try to teach everything and thus teaches nothing (and very badly at that).