Martial arts style v style rant

[drop bear]

My short answer is, the better fighter wins, the one who knows what he is doing, wins. And that is regardless of what style or school he is trained in.

Wing Chun is no doubt an excellent method of fighting; and so is boxing, if the fighter is skilled at it.
And, that is my answer, the skilled fighter and the one with the most heart, will win.

Note: How many excellent fighters have been taken out, by some creep ambushing them?
I suspect that there have been a few. A good fighter remains ready to go, and I think that some people forget that.

The man that made the video, seems like someone who could fight his way out of a bad situation.

The issue you may get there is if you focus on undefinable results. it removes the importance of getting the definable parts of your training correct.

So yes a trained fighter could get jumped and bashed. But how do you train to defend that in a way where the results are predictable?

Does that mean that punching kicking grappling is less important?

 

[drop bear]

Really? Speakman still fights like that. At least, when he (or his students) is/are doing choreographed drills;

Elbows? Why yes.



Bjj teaches you how to deal with strikes and grappling.

Aside from everything else that is wrong with that. Why are only 2 people in the room training at any given time?

 

[Ironbear24]

Really? Speakman still fights like that. At least, when he (or his students) is/are doing choreographed drills;

Elbows? Why yes.



Bjj teaches you how to deal with strikes and grappling.

Throwing elbows is illegal in boxing. The mma fighters you listed train with people outside of bjj is what I am saying. So you answered your own question, he "fights" like that in drills. Well drills are not fighting so that statement is moot. The technique drills are to teach you body mechanics and show what you could do in a fight. I myself have used variations of them and never done the technique in its entirety.

In sparring I use none of the techniques but I use the principles taught by them. Things such as blocking/parrying and side stepping just enough to not get it, but not put yourself too far away to strike back.

 

[Hanzou]

Throwing elbows is illegal in boxing.

Of course, but Boxers still know how to throw them.

The mma fighters you listed train with people outside of bjj is what I am saying.

And what I'm saying is that nothing they're doing is outside of the realm of old school Bjj training. You'd be hard-pressed to distinguish what Kron or McKenzie are doing from what Royce was doing way back in the first UFC. The current crop of Bjj fighters in MMA is about as "pure" as you get in MMA.

So you answered your own question, he "fights" like that in drills. Well drills are not fighting so that statement is moot. The technique drills are to teach you body mechanics and show what you could do in a fight. I myself have used variations of them and never done the technique in its entirety.

You told me that all that stuff Speakman was doing was just make-believe and movie choreography. Now when I show him doing that exact same silliness in his dojo, you're making excuses for it?

Hilarious.

BTW, those drills aren't teaching you body mechanics, they're teaching you that if bad guy tries to punch you in the face, you block and hit him 50 times and finish it off with a deadly kick.

Just like the movies.

In sparring I use none of the techniques but I use the principles taught by them. Things such as blocking/parrying and side stepping just enough to not get it, but not put yourself too far away to strike back.

Does the principle also include your opponent standing there like a statue while you hit him six-seven times?

 

[BigMotor]

The issue you may get there is if you focus on undefinable results. it removes the importance of getting the definable parts of your training correct.

So yes a trained fighter could get jumped and bashed. But how do you train to defend that in a way where the results are predictable?

Does that mean that punching kicking grappling is less important?

I grapple and kick, I throw punches, but I carry a knife and stick too, just in case. There is no perfect fighting method, but there is a way to handle a violent struggle. And that is to not give up, and to fight hard, until you win. There can be one, or two, or three of them, then what? Grappling won't work on that many, but I can smack some skulls with a stick.

PS: not too many situations are truly predictable. It pays to be cagey, and expect the unexpected.

 

[drop bear]

I grapple and kick, I throw punches, but I carry a knife and stick too, just in case. There is no perfect fighting method, but there is a way to handle a violent struggle; and that is to not give up, and to fight hard, until you win. And I mean that, whether it is one, or two, or three of them.

Willpower and technical skill are two separate skill sets. You don't have to trade one for the other.

 

[Hanzou]

In reality, when you make one move, your opponent will respond with 1 move, you then react to his respond.

Exactly.

No one is suddenly going to stop moving and reacting when you start hitting them.

 

[Ironbear24]

Of course, but Boxers still know how to throw them.



And what I'm saying is that nothing they're doing is outside of the realm of old school Bjj training. You'd be hard-pressed to distinguish what Kron or McKenzie are doing from what Royce was doing way back in the first UFC. The current crop of Bjj fighters in MMA is about as "pure" as you get in MMA.



You told me that all that stuff Speakman was doing was just make-believe and movie choreography. Now when I show him doing that exact same silliness in his dojo, you're making excuses for it?

Hilarious.

BTW, those drills aren't teaching you body mechanics, they're teaching you that if bad guy tries to punch you in the face, you block and hit him 50 times and finish it off with a deadly kick.

Just like the movies.



Does the principle also include your opponent standing there like a statue while you hit him six-seven times?

Are you a Kenpo karate teacher? I think I am going to obey what my sifu told me about the reasoning behind such drills over some biased bjj fanboy on the internet.

I am not justifying the movie or making excuses for it. I am simply pointing out the fact that people (Jeff speak man and kenpoists) don't fight that way because life is not a movie. The odds of you walking into a club owned by a Korean mafia and beating up 11 guys alone is ********.

(If it were realistic they would have just shot him)

It is a movie designed to entertain you, it is basically a glorified bunkai. Technique drills such as five swords work because you are hitting areas that will cause flinching and basically a small period of being stunned, this gives you enough time for follow up with attacks.

In sparring this is not going to happen because you are not hitting full force, plus you also have protective gear on which will render a lot of these less effective, and no, no sparring ever has one guy being a statue.

That is hyperbole and nothing more. As for the bjj comment or gjj welcome to a hybrid martialart, there is no purity in them as a sense if being one style as the very nature of it is mixed.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you a Kenpo karate teacher? I think I am going to obey what my sifu told me about the reasoning behind such drills over some biased bjj fanboy on the internet.

You don't need to believe anything I'm telling you. However, you should really use some common sense. Why even do a drill like that if its not for fighting?

BTW, I don't want to knock Speakman too hard, because he was smart enough to incorporate Bjj into his system, but when I see his guys spar (or fight) I see none of those mechanics on display.

I am not justifying the movie or making excuses for it. I am simply pointing out the fact that people (Jeff speak man and kenpoists) don't fight that way because life is not a movie. The odds of you walking into a club owned by a Korean mafia and beating up 11 guys alone is ********.

(If it were realistic they would have just shot him)

It is a movie designed to entertain you, it is basically a glorified bunkai. Technique drills such as five swords work because you are hitting areas that will cause flinching and basically a small period of being stunned, this gives you enough time for follow up with attacks.

In sparring this is not going to happen because you are not hitting full force, plus you also have protective gear on which will render a lot of these less effective, and no, no sparring ever has one guy being a statue.

So again, you said it was all just a movie, and then I showed you Speakman's people training just like the movie in their dojo, and now you're backpedalling.

The point is that you never saw Chuck do nonsense like that. He just pummeled people to death.

That is hyperbole and nothing more. As for the bjj comment or gjj welcome to a hybrid martialart, there is no purity in them as a sense if being one style as the very nature of it is mixed.

Well if you want to try to pull that foolishness, all martial arts are hybrids of something. However in the end;

That's all Bjj buddy. Let me know when you find an example of Liddell doing one of those Speakman drills in the cage.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exactly.

No one is suddenly going to stop moving and reacting when you start hitting them.

Unless you hit them just right (KO), in which case you don't need to keep hitting them.

 

[drop bear]

Unless you hit them just right (KO), in which case you don't need to keep hitting them.

But you keep hitting them anyway.

 

[Ironbear24]

You don't need to believe anything I'm telling you. However, you should really use some common sense. Why even do a drill like that if its not for fighting?

BTW, I don't want to knock Speakman too hard, because he was smart enough to incorporate Bjj into his system, but when I see his guys spar (or fight) I see none of those mechanics on display.



So again, you said it was all just a movie, and then I showed you Speakman's people training just like the movie in their dojo, and now you're backpedalling.

The point is that you never saw Chuck do nonsense like that. He just pummeled people to death.



Well if you want to try to pull that foolishness, all martial arts are hybrids of something. However in the end;

That's all Bjj buddy. Let me know when you find an example of Liddell doing one of those Speakman drills in the cage.

Fist law. He used it all the time, you won't see those in a cage because they weren't created with a cage in mind.

"However, you should really use some common sense. Why even do a drill like that if its not for fighting?"

Because they help for fighting. Just like sprinting is training for fighting, or hitting a bag, alone these training methods will not help you fight better, but it is when you combine all of these training methods together will that help you be a better fighter.

Each one is a tool not the end all be all.

Yeah that was bjj all right. It bored the hell out of me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But you keep hitting them anyway.

Nope.

 

[Ironbear24]

Nope.

I am going to use a really stupid example, but proves my point. I went to a place called "The Grove" on Halloween because my gf and friends wanted to go. Toward the end of the night they forced me into one of the haunted houses (where people jump out and scare you and it is decorated with props and special effects) I didn't want to because I am a big chicken.

Anyway long story short I get forced into going and a clown jumped out of nowhere and tried to grab me. I hate clowns, they creep me out, so I shove one of his arms out of the way and that turned his body to me exposing a nice row of ribs. I uppercut the ribs and then run away screaming as he is doubled over in pain.

Friends laugh and stuff but it wasn't funny, lucky for me I was just told to not go back in there ever again by security and no one pressed any assault charges. The clown was ok as his body suit seemed to cushion most of it.

Anyway the point is that technique has about 4 hits in it and I only needed to use one. The many strikes in these techniques are 'just in case" things where if the person doesn't go down on the first hit or first few hits.

 

[drop bear]

Nope.

That was supposed to go with a video of a friend of mine doing pretty much that. His explaination was he knocked the guy out with a kick. And then was just punching him lightly untill the ref pulled him off.

Looking back at the video he has conceded the punches were not all that light.

Instagram video by Torii Kelly • Nov 6, 2016 at 12:01am UTC"instapp%3Atake"%5D&action_ref_map=%5B"ogexp"%5D

 

[Buka]

Aptly titled thread.

 

[Steve]

I am going to use a really stupid example, but proves my point. I went to a place called "The Grove" on Halloween because my gf and friends wanted to go. Toward the end of the night they forced me into one of the haunted houses (where people jump out and scare you and it is decorated with props and special effects) I didn't want to because I am a big chicken.

Anyway long story short I get forced into going and a clown jumped out of nowhere and tried to grab me. I hate clowns, they creep me out, so I shove one of his arms out of the way and that turned his body to me exposing a nice row of ribs. I uppercut the ribs and then run away screaming as he is doubled over in pain.

Friends laugh and stuff but it wasn't funny, lucky for me I was just told to not go back in there ever again by security and no one pressed any assault charges. The clown was ok as his body suit seemed to cushion most of it.

Anyway the point is that technique has about 4 hits in it and I only needed to use one. The many strikes in these techniques are 'just in case" things where if the person doesn't go down on the first hit or first few hits.

If you are punching clowns in a haunted house, you're not learning very good self defense skills and probably need to figure that out.

 

[Ironbear24]

If you are punching clowns in a haunted house, you're not learning very good self defense skills and probably need to figure that out.

I was scared Steve. It's not like it was on purpose or something I am proud of.

 

[Steve]

I was scared Steve. It's not like it was on purpose or something I am proud of.

That doesn't excuse the behavior. If you are punching strangers you should probably fix that before you learn how to punch more effectively.

 

[Ironbear24]

That doesn't excuse the behavior. If you are punching strangers you should probably fix that before you learn how to punch more effectively.

Here we go again. I will atone for my sins once again in the peaks of Mt. Asianic name. Brb.