Martial Arts lineage

[Liam Digby]

It's been a while since I contributed, but here's a question I thought might encourage a healthy exchange of views.

I read recently that when a martial art is seperated from its founder by more than two generations it is inevitable that it will become a mere shadow of its former self, in that it will lose vital elements and will become garbled in translation.

The assumption seems to be that the historical founder, be it Chojun Miyagi, Morihei Ueshiba, Yang Lu-ch'an, Gichin Funakoshi, held a special body of knowledge that came out of their unique abilities/experiences that failed to cross the generational divide intact. Was this because of their failure as communicators? Or are their special talents and knowledge a result of the ages in which those individuals lived, social conditions, personal ambition fuelled by circumstances and hence not applicable to later generations? Or is this premise an over-simplification?

Is this happening now, to current generations?

Interested in your views.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Well, in my opinion, TaeKwonDo has declined alot...

 

[Liam Digby]

Well, in my opinion, TaeKwonDo has declined alot...

Would you care to elaborate?

Is this whole thing perhaps too sticky a subject?

I'm hoping that people will comment from their own experiences within their own systems, don't want to open the door to sniping at other systems. (not suggesting ShaolinWolf's comments are made to cause irritation to the TaeKwonDo people).

 

[wadokai_indo]

It's been a while since I contributed, but here's a question I thought might encourage a healthy exchange of views.

I read recently that when a martial art is seperated from its founder by more than two generations it is inevitable that it will become a mere shadow of its former self, in that it will lose vital elements and will become garbled in translation.

The assumption seems to be that the historical founder, be it Chojun Miyagi, Morihei Ueshiba, Yang Lu-ch'an, Gichin Funakoshi, held a special body of knowledge that came out of their unique abilities/experiences that failed to cross the generational divide intact. Was this because of their failure as communicators? Or are their special talents and knowledge a result of the ages in which those individuals lived, social conditions, personal ambition fuelled by circumstances and hence not applicable to later generations? Or is this premise an over-simplification?

Is this happening now, to current generations?

Interested in your views.

Well Liam, I think like it or not a style will evolve according to what its practitioners deemed important. Yoshin-ryu evolved from all the Chinese Quanfa/Kenpo which Akiyama studied in China before 1610. He was inspired by the willow tree, which survived a snowstorm by bending and flexing instead of trying go go against the storm. So he modified his Quanfa to conform with this new idea. Several generations later his Yoshin-ryu has evolved into something very different with the original Quanfa he learned. But then this come full circle in 1938 when Otsuka (a Yoshin-ryu Menkyokaiden) combined Yoshin-ryu with Okinawa Kenpo (essentially Chinese Kenpo imported to Okinawa) and forming Wado-ryu. So Wado-ryu contains Chinese elements, Okinawan elements and Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu elements. While we acknowledge our links to Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu and even all the way to China, we also notice that our present-day Wado-ryu has evolved into an entirely new "species", different with its predecessor, though still retains much of its techniques. Sorry about my rambling, does this answers some of your questions?

Your friend in Budo,

Ben Haryo

 

[Liam Digby]

Thanks for that Ben, I take your point.
It is obvious that martial arts schools, styles, Ryu will undergo some kind of change as they develop, but is it possible that they will also degenerate? And if so, what are the causes of the degeneration? And beyond that, do they reflect the society in which they function? An obvious area to think about would be; are the successors, appointed or otherwise, pale reflections of the original generative persona?

I can think of a couple of examples that might support both sides of the argument:

Within Okinawan karate, the Goju Ryu which I suppose began its life with Kanryo Higaonna was taken further by the intense study and training of the next generation in the form of Chojun Miyagi - evidence of development, not degeneration.

Within T'ai-chi, the "invincible Yang", Yang Lu-ch'an who brought the art out of the shadows and fought off all challengers, passed the knowledge down through his family, and many commentators have since said that this once superior system became a watered down form of geriatric aerobics. Main culprit, Yang Ch'eng-fu, the grandson of the above.

And what about Wado Ryu Karate?
And within your Wado can you tap into the full force of Master Ohtsuka's personality, skill and high level of development? Is the mirror clear and untarnished?

 

[cas]

Liam,

Some thoughts,
1) I read in an interview with Suzuki-sensei (very senior wado-sensei) that he thinks wado-ryu has changed for the better since it's early days. Just a thought from someone who could know. I'll try to find the online copy where I read this.

2) If someone would think of a system being at 100% at a given point in time then any changes after that time in the system will be perceived as degenaration. This is a phenomenon seen throughout history. People have always been complaining about the lack of manners of the youth and the decline of civilisation. Not to say everything has always changed for the better but still here we are having a discussion over the internet...
If someone has a set idea of how things should be then all change even progress is seen as a change that's taking away from how it should be. The quality of change cannot be judged by a mind filled with unchangeable ideas.

3) I'm not afraid to say that I practice karate as a hobby. This isn't saying that I don't take it serious but I really don't spend enough time training to call it something else. Comparing someone like me to the people that were founder or head of a system is just silly. Comparing serious teachers with the general practioner is likely to make you see a decline. But if a system produces one practioner with a level of skill that's comparable (maybe not equal but close) to the founder then the system remains, if it produces two practioners with the same level of teaching then there is progress, if after the first generation there is not one teacher that comes close to the same level of teaching as the founder then there is decline.

Perhaps as a system has a growing number of practioners the average level of skill will always decline. But should we then say that the ryu has degenarated? If Ohtsuka sensei would have handpicked just four or five very talented students and taught only them then this small ryu would be famous for it's great martial artists. I'm glad he didn't. Now we have people like me and some great martial artists.

just my opinion,

Casper

 

[ShaolinWolf]

I take TaeKwonDo, Thank you very much.

 

[wadokai_indo]

Thanks for that Ben, I take your point.
It is obvious that martial arts schools, styles, Ryu will undergo some kind of change as they develop, but is it possible that they will also degenerate? And if so, what are the causes of the degeneration? And beyond that, do they reflect the society in which they function? An obvious area to think about would be; are the successors, appointed or otherwise, pale reflections of the original generative persona?

I can think of a couple of examples that might support both sides of the argument:

Within Okinawan karate, the Goju Ryu which I suppose began its life with Kanryo Higaonna was taken further by the intense study and training of the next generation in the form of Chojun Miyagi - evidence of development, not degeneration.

Within T'ai-chi, the "invincible Yang", Yang Lu-ch'an who brought the art out of the shadows and fought off all challengers, passed the knowledge down through his family, and many commentators have since said that this once superior system became a watered down form of geriatric aerobics. Main culprit, Yang Ch'eng-fu, the grandson of the above.

And what about Wado Ryu Karate?
And within your Wado can you tap into the full force of Master Ohtsuka's personality, skill and high level of development? Is the mirror clear and untarnished?

Hello Liam,

This is a great discussion, eh? glad to have something like this every week!

Keeping the art 100% similar to what the founder created was not easy for ancient pre-1882 martial arts. Simply, there were no videotapes Thus, the younger generation cannot really get the details of what their teachers taught them. This is one of the reasons why Okinawan kata's are different with Chinese Kata's, and why Japanese Kata's are different with Okinawan Kata's. I have Okinawan Embu Taikai videos and I see even the Okinawan Goju masters from the same style performs similar Katas differently! But each interpretations of Kata still bears the distinctive hard-and-soft movements of Goju, so it's all Goju.

You are very right, environmental pressures is also very important in determining the evolution of the martial arts. Before the Tokugawa era, the sword and weaponry are more important. Tokugawa brought peace and unity to Japan, and thus the empty-hand arts took prominence. Old Jujutsu styles usually has Mutodori/Shinken Shirahadori (sword and short sword defenses) as their most important skills, because Samurai warriors are expected to carry their short and long swords everywhere. But after 1871 emperor Meiji ended the Samurai's rights to carry their swords. Thus defenses against sword and short sword took a backseat, while empty hand vs empty hand defenses/empty hand vs modern weaponry (knife, pistols) rose into prominence. Also, in modern times people no longer sit on the floor, so Idori (defenses from sitting position) are de-emphasized and Tachiai (defenses from standing) are emphasized. That is why modern Jujutsu very much emphasize on empty hand defenses and knife+pistols defenses performed from standing position.

Speaking of Wado-ryu, we are very lucky to have videos of our Grandmaster performing his techniques, so at least we knew how he moves, and we have people who were studying direct with him (including my teacher), so we pretty sure knows what "true" Wado looks like. The problem with Wado-ryu is that in the 1960s, Wado-ryu becomes very much involved in the formation of JKF (Zen-Nippon Karatedo Renmei-All Japan Karatedo Federation/FAJKO). There was a big drive to make Karate an acceptable sport, so the four major Karate styles decided that they must concentrate their effort for Sport Karate.

What is this means for Wado-ryu? This means Wado-ryu after the 1960s start to emphasize sport Karate, and de-emphasize Jujutsu techniques. The result? We have many National and International Karate champion, but not much Wado-stylists who could perform the Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu techniques as contained within the original syllabus. This is a tragedy, because our style started as Wado-ryu Jujutsu Kenpo, which means it is a style of Jujutsu with Kenpo influence. Now Wado-ryu has evolved into a Sport Karate style, with its Jujutsu aspects "gone and forgotten".

But we still have hopes Because lately the leaders of Wado has decided to revisit the old Jujutsu of their art and began to teach it again. So the third generation Wado-guys like myself and Casper can preserve the old Jujutsu for the next generations to come

I am refraining from making comments regarding Tai chi because I have not much experience in this wonderful martial art. But I do notice the disrespancy between the legends of old Taichi masters with the modern day Taichi which, as you have pointed out, looks more like Taebo for the elderly. Still, I am very sure that somewhere in this world, there must be people who practice "real" Taichi as its founder intented.


Ahh sorry, I am rambling again. Have fun training my friends!

Ben

 

[Liam Digby]

Hello Casper and Ben,
To Casper, I think you have made some v. good points….but,
When you said,
" If someone would think of a system being at 100% at a given point in time then any changes after that time in the system will be perceived as degenaration."
I don't think that there is such a thing as 100%. All you get is the pinnacle of one person's achievement. If that person person's achievement produces ideas that then develop into a workable system that others can then tap into then you have the beginnings, the possibility of a transmission.

Also, I don't think that any of these systems were originally designed for mass transmission. They were meant for a small numbers of a hand-picked elite few. It was only when certain key individuals got the evangelistic bug that the idea started to develop that here was something for the world - or the health and morale of the nation. Again I find myself thinking of the history of T'ai-chi. But really it was Kano of Judo fame, who saw certain things about the Western attitude towards health, fitness and cultivation of the young that he thought would be right for the developing Japanese nation, this then snowballed and got all wrapped up in the Olympic movement. Martial Arts in Japan at that time had to adapt, diversify or die. There must have been so much intellectual hypothesising going on in Japan in those days and Ohtsuka was there in the thick of it - you only have to read his book to see the evidence.

But really, how well was it all thought out? Was it meant for mass consumption? How many of the founders of systems would have guessed that after their lifetime it would have gone global, and those who lived long enough to see it, how were they to remain in total command of the quality control department? Did they realize what would be preached in their names at the far flung corners of their new global empires, god knows, I've seen it!!

Okay so we could assume that they did have their hands firmly on the steering wheel, the only way to keep in control would be to homogenise the whole system and give the world a pulp, factory produced martial art - no more the personal touch, gone is the flexibility.

Yes Casper, we all practice our Karate as a hobby, but how many instructors stand out in front of their classes and pretend that for them that's not the case, that they are the new generation of masters? And that's where we get stuck, high graded instructors pretending to wear master Ohtsuka's clothes. That is why we see a proliferation of those willing to hook up with the latest fad to add to their Wado, I know I'm being cynical here but is it perhaps that they have an Ohtsuka shaped hole in their lives?

A Japanese Wado Sensei I trained under told us that very late in his life Ohtsuka regretted that he'd created a system that was so complex, he wished he'd made it crash, bang, kick punch, because, he said, no one around him seems to have grasped what he was getting at!. Ueshiba is reported to have said something similar at the end of his life.

Ben, you said that we were lucky to have film of Ohtsuka and students who trained with him, but really what does that film tell us, it's only exterior form. And as for the students of Ohtsuka, well….sometimes I wonder how many Ohtsukas who were Wado masters there were in Japan between the years 1939 and 1982, because I find it difficult to believe that the students of Ohtsuka I've trained under were all from the same system! On the surface I saw good pulp Wado, but the real difference was in the detail. With the best of them I think we still see Ohtsuka, but it's like looking at him through frosted glass.

I take your point about the competition thing, but it kind of fits in with what Ohtsuka said in his book, relating to young people and Tanren.

Also when you mentioned, " Because lately the leaders of Wado has decided to revisit the old Jujutsu of their art and began to teach it again." I don't think it ever went away, there were those who did the University Wado and those who were close to Ohtsuka and got the full deal.

 

[wadokai_indo]

Hello Casper and Ben,
To Casper, I think you have made some v. good points….but,
When you said,
" If someone would think of a system being at 100% at a given point in time then any changes after that time in the system will be perceived as degenaration."
I don't think that there is such a thing as 100%. All you get is the pinnacle of one person's achievement. If that person person's achievement produces ideas that then develop into a workable system that others can then tap into then you have the beginnings, the possibility of a transmission.

Also, I don't think that any of these systems were originally designed for mass transmission. They were meant for a small numbers of a hand-picked elite few. It was only when certain key individuals got the evangelistic bug that the idea started to develop that here was something for the world - or the health and morale of the nation. Again I find myself thinking of the history of T'ai-chi. But really it was Kano of Judo fame, who saw certain things about the Western attitude towards health, fitness and cultivation of the young that he thought would be right for the developing Japanese nation, this then snowballed and got all wrapped up in the Olympic movement. Martial Arts in Japan at that time had to adapt, diversify or die. There must have been so much intellectual hypothesising going on in Japan in those days and Ohtsuka was there in the thick of it - you only have to read his book to see the evidence.

But really, how well was it all thought out? Was it meant for mass consumption? How many of the founders of systems would have guessed that after their lifetime it would have gone global, and those who lived long enough to see it, how were they to remain in total command of the quality control department? Did they realize what would be preached in their names at the far flung corners of their new global empires, god knows, I've seen it!!

Okay so we could assume that they did have their hands firmly on the steering wheel, the only way to keep in control would be to homogenise the whole system and give the world a pulp, factory produced martial art - no more the personal touch, gone is the flexibility.

Yes Casper, we all practice our Karate as a hobby, but how many instructors stand out in front of their classes and pretend that for them that's not the case, that they are the new generation of masters? And that's where we get stuck, high graded instructors pretending to wear master Ohtsuka's clothes. That is why we see a proliferation of those willing to hook up with the latest fad to add to their Wado, I know I'm being cynical here but is it perhaps that they have an Ohtsuka shaped hole in their lives?

A Japanese Wado Sensei I trained under told us that very late in his life Ohtsuka regretted that he'd created a system that was so complex, he wished he'd made it crash, bang, kick punch, because, he said, no one around him seems to have grasped what he was getting at!. Ueshiba is reported to have said something similar at the end of his life.

Ben, you said that we were lucky to have film of Ohtsuka and students who trained with him, but really what does that film tell us, it's only exterior form. And as for the students of Ohtsuka, well….sometimes I wonder how many Ohtsukas who were Wado masters there were in Japan between the years 1939 and 1982, because I find it difficult to believe that the students of Ohtsuka I've trained under were all from the same system! On the surface I saw good pulp Wado, but the real difference was in the detail. With the best of them I think we still see Ohtsuka, but it's like looking at him through frosted glass.

I take your point about the competition thing, but it kind of fits in with what Ohtsuka said in his book, relating to young people and Tanren.

Also when you mentioned, " Because lately the leaders of Wado has decided to revisit the old Jujutsu of their art and began to teach it again." I don't think it ever went away, there were those who did the University Wado and those who were close to Ohtsuka and got the full deal.

Hello Liam!

Glad to know you have some Wado-ryu experience. So we are speaking the same language

About GM Otsuka's films. Well, like I said, at least we know how he looks like at his late 80s, how he moves at that age, and how he performs certain techniques. True, it's only a moving picture and it cannot teach us anything. But for nostalgia's sake, I am still emotionally moved to see this great person in action.

You are right, there are so many interpretations and versions of what Otsuka sensei are doing. I see Suzuki sensei (WIKF) does his thing, then Hakoishi sensei (JKF-WK) doing something that is different with what Suzuki are doing, and then I see Shiomitsu sensei (WRR) doing something that was never shown by Suzuki and Hakoishi... kind of confusing eh? Off course they all said "I learned THIS from the Grandmaster!". OK, but there are certain details that are so different, for example when executing Tedori (that's the first Jujutsu technique from Idori), Suzuki sensei simply throws his Uke, strike him and let go, while Hakoishi sensei does a (wrenchingly painful) armbar after the strike. The Grandmaster is no longer with us so we cannot clarify which one is the "right" one. So I just do what I always do: learn both approaches and take them as equally valid. And since both approaches works well in self-defense simulations, I have nothing to lose

And so...I consider what they're doing as Wado-mosaic, let's say that each of them Wado-masters learned things from the Grandmaster, interpret and modify what they saw to fit their personal liking, then transmit it to the next generation. As a third generation Wadoka, I think its more important to try to learn as much as we can, so we can collect as much Wado-mosaic as possible. All the people who has "felt the hand of Otsuka" are elder citizen now (even my own teacher is 65 yrs old) and a couple of decades from now they all will be joining Otsuka sensei in the Great Tatami in the Sky. So it is important to preserve their teachings. What they taught might not be 100% similar with what the Grandmaster were teaching, but even 60%-70% similarities is fine by me. It's better to have something that is close than not having anything at all.

BTW, you are right about Wado's Jujutsu never went away. It just getting pushed to the background for a while, to the point of being grossly de-emphasized that many of us young brats does not recognize any Jujutsu anymore within Wado. If you want to call this degeneration then go ahead, it is! That is why I try to pursue as much Wado Jujutsu as I can. Even though I am in JKF-WK camp, I'd love to go to Japan someday and train with GM Otsuka 2nd. I heard only good things about his Jujutsu skills. He has a menkyokaiden in Shindo Yoshin-ryu so that's kind of no surprise

And about Wado masters trying to be the next Otsuka sensei.. well even Otsuka sensei himself doesn't want to emulate Nakayama Tatsusaburo or Funakoshi or Mabuni or Motobu or any of his teachers.. He took the best teachings of his teachers and create something new. So he was a pioneer. There will never be another Otsuka sensei, just like there will never be another Uyeshiba sensei or another Kano sensei. For sure, we have many great Wado teachers. Hakoishi sensei has wonderful techniques, Suzuki sensei are incredible, Shiomitsu sensei moves very well, Jiro sensei moves almost like his father, and my teacher knows plenty of tricks. But none of them can be considered the next Otsuka sensei.

I also agree with you that Wado-ryu is a very complex martial arts. But it's kind of expected from a style which combines Jujutsu with Okinawan Kenpo, both are already complex arts. The answer to this depth and complexity are separate groups with their own specializations. In the future I foresee that there will be people who's doing Wado with more Jujutsu-flavor (like myself), there will be sport-Karate oriented Wado-people (like the majority of JKF guys), and also people who try to maintain balance between Karate and Jujutsu/self-defense aspects of Wado (like the WIKF guys). I think all approaches are valid, and it will give several choices for people who would like to delve deeper into certain aspects of Wado.

Och no, I am rambling again! :O Must be too much Seishan!

Take care!

Ben

 

[Liam Digby]

Thank you for your reply Ben,

I realize that this has gone down a specifically Wado road. But I don't think the history of Wado is a unique case, that's why I was curious to see if any other stylist would jump in and share their views. Perhaps the thought of tip-toeing around all the politics is too much of a daunting task.

But really, isn't it curious that these martial systems, many with very ancient roots and even bloody and violent past histories are now managing to stay alive by virtue of their willingness to transform into ways of assisting in rehabilitating society. Laudable though it is I find myself wondering what is being lost in the transmission, particularly when systems become global and are run by committees with nominal leaders, as if leadership and individual vision have become something to stay away from. And, has anyone stopped to wonder how such individuals as Funakoshi, Ohtsuka etc. were allowed to flourish in a society that prides itself on conformity and loyalty to the common good at the expense of the individual expression? Kano is probably the best example I can think of - an odd-ball who started out life as a driven youngster and developed into a driven adult willing to challenge the norms and adopt methodology from outside his own culture.

 

[wadokai_indo]

Thank you for your reply Ben,

I realize that this has gone down a specifically Wado road. But I don't think the history of Wado is a unique case, that's why I was curious to see if any other stylist would jump in and share their views. Perhaps the thought of tip-toeing around all the politics is too much of a daunting task.

But really, isn't it curious that these martial systems, many with very ancient roots and even bloody and violent past histories are now managing to stay alive by virtue of their willingness to transform into ways of assisting in rehabilitating society. Laudable though it is I find myself wondering what is being lost in the transmission, particularly when systems become global and are run by committees with nominal leaders, as if leadership and individual vision have become something to stay away from. And, has anyone stopped to wonder how such individuals as Funakoshi, Ohtsuka etc. were allowed to flourish in a society that prides itself on conformity and loyalty to the common good at the expense of the individual expression? Kano is probably the best example I can think of - an odd-ball who started out life as a driven youngster and developed into a driven adult willing to challenge the norms and adopt methodology from outside his own culture.

Ah Liam san, so there are two issues there. First, how did Kano, Otsuka and Funakoshi get away with their "dare to be different" attitude. Secondly, how much were lost in the transformation of our arts from Bujutsu to Budo.

How did Kano get away with being different? Two answers. First, by duelling. He trained his students well using new training methods, accepted challenges, and won. Second, by using leverage when he has one. Remember, sometime in his life he become a very high ranking person in the Japanese Ministry of Education. He used his influence as a high official to further his Judo. Jujutsu masters of his time flocked to his banner to share the prestige of being affiliated to a person of high repute.

How did Funakoshi get away with being different? Two answers. First, Kano helped him. Kano took this unknown person and bring his art into spotlight, making other Japanese thinks "If a high ranked person like Kano are interested in this kind of strange martial art, then I'll have a try as well". Secondly, please remember that Funakoshi's early students includes Yasuhiro Konishi (who is already a high ranking and highly influential Kendo man) and Otsuka sensei (already a menkyokaiden with high reputation in Jujutsu). These two Samurai-heritaged people really gave Funakoshi the headstart he needed to establish his style in the Japanese Mainland. It's kind like having your food-supplement formula for boxing endorsed by Lennox Lewis. Very big headstart for Funakoshi sensei.

Otsuka sensei? I think he just rode the waves of change. Brilliant person, very very smart and wise. He could predict that Okinawan martial art will be popular someday. When Karate was not very famous and Jujutsu was the established martial art, he called his art Shinshu Wado-ryu Jujutsu Kenpo and present it as a true Japanese art (even invoke the name of Yoshin-ryu founder Akiyama as the founder of Wado). Then as Karate becomes more famous, he call his group Nippon Karatedo Shinkokai, then later Zen-Nippon Karatedo Renmei Wadokai. He helped the formation of Zen-Nippon Karatedo Renmei (All-Japan Karatedo Federation) to organize sport Karate. He is the kind of person who could read the writings on the wall faster than anyone else, and interpret the changes of situations accurately. That is why he is always on top of it all.

Which brought us into second question.. how much were lost in the transformation from Bujutsu to Budo? Simple answer: PLENTY!! Look at the original syllabuses of Kodokan Judo and Wado-ryu. They are very comprehensive. Then have a look at most (not all) of today's Judo blackbelts and Wado blackbelts. How many of them can perform all the Jujutsu Kata's as contained within their syllabus? Not much! I have met Judo Nidans who cannot even perform a decent Kime no Kata. And I have met Wado-ryu Yondans and Sandans who never even heard of Tantodori. But they can knock you around very strongly in Shiai. Go figure We strengthen one point by weaken another. Which are understandable, because human capabilities are limited. We can't always have it all, so we tend to specialize in things we do best. Hey, every innovation has its victims. We sacrificed something to gain something. We sacrificed combat effectiveness to create a sport where young people could channel their energy positively. Win some, lose some. But it will be a tragedy if no one memorized the entire tradition. This means much of the tradition will be lost, gone forever. I hope this will not happen to Kodokan Judo and Wado-ryu.

Great discussions Liam! Anything you'd like to add Casper?

 

[cas]

I'll try to respond but I think good points have been made in this discussion.
To respond to the original question: will a system be a shadow of it's former self when it's removed more then two generations from the founder. No. It can be but it doesn't have to. This depends on whoever the main teachers are , it depends on who's in charge after the founder. Can the right mix between valuable principles from the past and the demands of modern times be found? Most if not all of the names of great masters mentioned by Liam were people with a strong grasp of both tradition and modern demands. The times had changed and new systems arose. They threw away the bathwater wich was now (in their eyes) getting cold but they didn't throw away the baby (I mean the lessons from the older arts).
Most of the MA practioners will never use their skills on the battlefield. We might have to use it in selfdefence. It has become important not to kill someone in the process of defending yourself (someone breaks into my house I kill him I go to jail). This has change in society has changed martial arts and has brought forth new arts.
Also the arts have been populised (if that's a word?) the effects of wich I've tried to describe before. This didn't just happen. Kano, Ohtsuka, Funakoshi put in great effort to make this happen. They didn't just pick a handfull of students, they brought their arts to the masses. But the old and the new way aren't mutually exclusive. There were students that spent enough time with the founder to become good teachers, there probably also were handpicked students...
On the battlefield you need to kill and not get killed. Now we need to defend, not get killed/hurt and not kill. This is different but the level of neccesary skill in the modern scenario isn't less (i.m.o.).

greetings,

Casper

 

[Karazenpo]

I also agree on much that has been said. Agreed, there is no such thing as 100 percent and the old masters taught just a small handful of students. My understanding is for that reason, students received more personalized training. Not all were taught exactly alike. They were taught according to there physical dimensions and natural abilities. Several would leave the same instructor with a slightly different 'spin' on what they were taught. Now, many traditionalists speak about their systems being 100 percent pure and tend to debunk the eclectic systems such as Kenpo/Kempo & Kajukenbo. Imho, this is pure bullsh.t! For one example, Shotokan was Funakoshi's 'eclectic' blending of Shorin ryu and Shorei ryu. Yet, not even all Shotokan schools teach the exact same movements in their katas and different Shotokan associations can't even agree on the number of required katas to be taught. Everyone, from the ancient masters to the current has put their own personal spin on what they teach. It's human nature and there's really nothing wrong with it. Yes, some may say when this happens the original is being watered down or dilluted and we're losing something but by the same token, what's to say we're not improving and adding something. It works both ways. Just my opinion. Respectfully, Professor Joe

 

[Martin h]

I mostly agree with cas, but Karazenpo raises a important issue. Today way to much empasis is placed in styles and purity.
The old masters didnt care about styles as much as we do today. They learned where they could and didnt mind sending their own students to others for further studies (Funakoshi sent people to Motobu of shitoryu, Miyagi was sent to china by Higashionna). Funakoshi never refered to his karate as a style of karate, he only refered to it being simply "karate" and he didnt realy differ it from karate by other masters -even the name shotokan was not used while he lived (atleast not around him), and is still not used by every "shotokan" dojo in japan.

Also they didnt mind adapting the art to suit their students. Miyagi for example is well known for not only teaching different sets of kata to different student, but also for teaching the same kata in different versions to different students. adapting the kata to suit the student. Get a few of those student together and try to have them agree on which katas Miyagi taught and the way they should look.

As for video material from the old masters, well they are interesting and useful, but remember that they usualy are videos taken of a OLD master, not the young master in his prime. The differences between the correct kata for a vigorous young man and the correct kata for a old man can be huge.

Fun anecdote, probably told trough a few to many "generations" : Oyama, founder of kyokushin, once visited a US dojo, and performed a kata while being filmed. His students in the dojo studied the katas in the video rigorously and tries to copy it exactly. a few years later Oyama returns, and notice a open hand where it shouldnt be, being done by everyone. When commenting on it, the students show him doing it himself in the video. Oyama laughts and says (paraphrased), "I made a mistake there and didnt notice it myself. do as I say, not always as I do".
Another anecdote. A famous shotokan shihan, Nakayama -the now deceased head of JKA, takes part in a exhibition during a major tournament. he is supposed to do gojushiho dai but he manages to do the "sho" version instead. Instead of correcting or questioning him, other instructors starts teaching the names of the katas in the reverse order, to fit with the mistake Nakayama had done. Today most JKA teach the reversed order as official.

Moral of both these stories are that even masters do things in less than perfect ways, and it is easy for students to read to much into a single performance.

 

[hippy]

i totally understand martin h (above), i too have tried recording the 30 or so katas i know, to help my students, not for resale, purely to pass on the knowledge. but each time i record anything, i see various mistakes or imperfections, most of which i dont want students to pick up. so no vids are complete. but changes arise from the slightest of differences:
ie) last night at training, i had 2 adult students (shodan level) actually arguing as to the direction u face after landing from the jump in the middle of pinan godan (i appreciate not everyone will have this move in their version). one was addament that u should be facing east (in relation to north being the starting direction) and the other was screaming that u should end-up facing south-east. a difference of 45 degrees !!

this example just shows how 2 people, taught by the same person, had created a difference based on whether the instructor turned more during the jump than they had intended. do this on every move in every kata, and variances easily crop up.

our ability a karateka to stop these differences from 'degenerating' the art, must surely come from our ability to explain the bunkai (application) of certain cominations of moves, and show their effectiveness.

in my time of training, the only degeneration (i feel) has been to do with strictness / discipline. years back, karate schools were incredably firm / strict with students, the instructors lead with iron-fists, almost militaristic. nowadays, a light approach can clearly be seen. this is not due to the instructors alone, this is simply because our society has changed so much in the same time.
does anyone else feel the same, am i wrong in thinking this??
i have only been training 14 years, a relative beginner to some.

 

[tshadowchaser]

in my time of training, the only degeneration (i feel) has been to do with strictness / discipline. years back, karate schools were incredably firm / strict with students, the instructors lead with iron-fists, almost militaristic. nowadays, a light approach can clearly be seen. this is not due to the instructors alone, this is simply because our society has changed so much in the same time.

This is true. Years ago you did as told and learned when the instructor gave you new material. The workouts where hard and often painful but you came out stronger and with the knowledge of what you could really do and take.
Now it seems many schools have little disipline and and as far as doing excercises well:
1. thats all there is . The school is really a gym or arobic place.
2. They do as little as possible because "little jonny" isn't in shape and never will be.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Then there is also innovations which came from crosstraining. If we read here

http://users.skynet.be/genbukan/hontai.htm

We can say that the techniques of Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu changes because of the friendship and crosstraining that the Takagi head teacher and Kukishin head teacher had. They influenced each others and came up with new systems which they deemed as "better" than their former systems.

The parallel of the modern day could be the current trend of Brazilian Jiujitsu players studying striking, and kickboxers studying Brazilian Jiujitsu, to improve their NHB game.