MA frauds

hoshin1600

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so there seems to be a few threads going on right now about lineage. i know this sight does not allow fraud busting so i am trying to be respectfull of that (and i hope everyone else does too), but my question is, out in the real world if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?
 

kuniggety

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I don't know really what you can do other than talk to them like a human being. The worst thing they can do is tell you to shove off. If they want to fight you, well, then there's the opportunity to show that they're a fake. Obviously don't provoke a fight but if they put their hands on you then it's fair game.

Aside from a few instances, most fakers don't get that far with their dojo/school because eventually the students will get disillusioned with the system.
 

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Fraud? You mean Bogus? A heavilly striped misrepresentation of the Arts? A charlatan, a paper tiger, a strawman in a nice starched gi? Who ever heard of such a thing?

You know the sad part? It's not the guy who's purposely creating a con, it's the poor kid who was promoted way past his ability and thrust to the front of his organization's latest money making arm.
 

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I would not train or teach under him or allow him into any class I was teaching. Other than that, nothing, I am not the martial arts police.
 

swhitney222

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I think it is hard to watch as a martial artist. Since everyone that starts there training knows nothing as a beginner, un-educated about what martial arts is and what to look for, you really have a hard time knowing until you gain experience and start research, you begin to see what works and what doesn't work. Hoshin1600 I guess you can offer to teach them. but all you can do is talk to them even though they bring down martial arts as a whole. I hope this is a hypothetical question and not one in the area, message me and let me know if it is :).
 

Tony Dismukes

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In general, nothing. You can't police the whole martial arts world. Also, people have different ideas about what counts as genuine qualifications and who counts as a fraud.

The exception is someone claiming BJJ rank, especially black belt status. The BJJ community polices that pretty vigilantly. An unqualified individual teaching with a phony BJJ black belt can expect to have his name and the details of his fraud broadcast worldwide as a warning for potential students. (In years past the consequences might be more ... physical, but we're mostly more civilized these days.:cool: )

This is only possible because the BJJ community is still relatively small and the existing lineages are known. Any legitimate BJJ black belt will have a provable lineage leading back to either the Gracie family or Oswaldo Fadda.
 
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hoshin1600

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if someone is a complete fraud as martial artists i feel we should never take the path of a physical solution just because that is what we train about. so lets take that off the table. if someone is teaching and claiming rank in something and its clear that he/ she is not authentic, as a community do we not have the responsibility to gaurd against this? in the Gracie example yes i am sure they would pursue this because it is the family name. but if it was just advertised as grappling and not mentioned their name ? this problem has existed a long long time. there was a point a few years ago that there was something brewing on the government level that they were going to set standards and begin to regulate martial arts ( all standards seemed to be tae kwon do based) you would then need to be licensed by your state. not sure how all that would work. but there should be some controls on this. i dont think it should be on the state or federal level but why within any governing body of a style does no one do anything? i do know many years ago my aikido teacher Fumio toyoda would go to other schools that claimed to teach aikido and ask them for their certificate from hombu dojo and who back in Japan gave them authorization to teach. he would then give them a cease and desist letter. this lead to many re-naming what they did aki- jiujitsu. i know anyone can open their doors and teach but i feel authentic style organizations should do more to prevent the unsavory use of that style and system name. if organizations did a better job at controlling this then "buyer beware" the consumer would be able to make better choices based on the well known system and style. if consumers were buying a car they would by a chevy, ford or toyota. not many would buy the Hoshin, whatchamacallit. (its not that reliable and it dont look pretty but it will cost you 10k) it should be the same with martial arts. am i being to idealistic?
 

Hanzou

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In general, nothing. You can't police the whole martial arts world. Also, people have different ideas about what counts as genuine qualifications and who counts as a fraud.

The exception is someone claiming BJJ rank, especially black belt status. The BJJ community polices that pretty vigilantly. An unqualified individual teaching with a phony BJJ black belt can expect to have his name and the details of his fraud broadcast worldwide as a warning for potential students. (In years past the consequences might be more ... physical, but we're mostly more civilized these days.:cool: )

This is only possible because the BJJ community is still relatively small and the existing lineages are known. Any legitimate BJJ black belt will have a provable lineage leading back to either the Gracie family or Oswaldo Fadda.

Even beyond that though, I think Bjj is able to police itself because it has a tradition of fighting. If you're a fraud, the last thing you want to fake is being a Bjj black belt, because people (typically high ranked Bjj practitioners) will pop up to roll with you constantly.

If you get rolled by the local backyard wrestler, you can kiss your phony Bjj school good bye.
 

Tony Dismukes

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if someone is a complete fraud as martial artists i feel we should never take the path of a physical solution just because that is what we train about. so lets take that off the table.

Agreed. Certain Brazilians of a previous generation had a different perspective, but those individuals did a lot of thing that I don't think should be emulated.

i dont think it should be on the state or federal level but why within any governing body of a style does no one do anything? i do know many years ago my aikido teacher Fumio toyoda would go to other schools that claimed to teach aikido and ask them for their certificate from hombu dojo and who back in Japan gave them authorization to teach. he would then give them a cease and desist letter.

The problem is that (in most countries at least), no one has a trademark on the name of most martial arts. Even if they did, you can always alter the name enough to come up with your own variation. If I were to start telling people that I am the 39th generation grandmaster of White Dragon Kung Pow Jutsu, the best response from others would be just to point out that there is no such thing and that I'm being a very silly person.

i know anyone can open their doors and teach but i feel authentic style organizations should do more to prevent the unsavory use of that style and system name. if organizations did a better job at controlling this then "buyer beware" the consumer would be able to make better choices based on the well known system and style

This does happen to a greater or lesser extent in different arts. One major problem is that the whole thing gets caught up in politics. Someone studies for 15 years in organization A, then has a falling out with their instructor and forms organization B. The original instructor immediately announces that the practitioner in question never learned the full art and is unqualified to teach it. Now repeat a few hundred times. In short order, you have a host of different schools and organizations with different standards who don't recognize the qualifications of practitioners from the competing organizations.

As nasty as political feuds in BJJ can get, at least BJJ practitioners mostly recognize each others awarded ranks as legitimate , even if it comes from a rival instructor. (This might not have been the case if Helio had succeeded in his early attempts to control the entire art, but the Gracie family was too large and fractious to allow him to get away with that.)
 

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In general, nothing. You can't police the whole martial arts world. Also, people have different ideas about what counts as genuine qualifications and who counts as a fraud.

The exception is someone claiming BJJ rank, especially black belt status. The BJJ community polices that pretty vigilantly. An unqualified individual teaching with a phony BJJ black belt can expect to have his name and the details of his fraud broadcast worldwide as a warning for potential students. (In years past the consequences might be more ... physical, but we're mostly more civilized these days.:cool: )

This is only possible because the BJJ community is still relatively small and the existing lineages are known. Any legitimate BJJ black belt will have a provable lineage leading back to either the Gracie family or Oswaldo Fadda.

Except now we have on line and free flow? Belts.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I'm not sure what you mean by free-flow belts?

The Gracie University online belt system is controversial, but a few things should be noted:

1) GU students cannot be ranked past blue belt without in-person evaluation. Certainly no one will be getting a legit BJJ black belt online.
2) GU students who have been awarded rank through that system are listed online, so if someone was (for some reason) faking being a GU blue belt they would be easy to expose.
3) The standards for GU rank are publicly available. You might or might not agree with them, but there's no fraud involved. If someone has a GU blue belt you can say exactly what that means.
 

Chris Parker

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so there seems to be a few threads going on right now about lineage. i know this sight does not allow fraud busting so i am trying to be respectfull of that (and i hope everyone else does too), but my question is, out in the real world if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?

It's not anywhere near as clear cut as that, though… for example "fraud" and "unskilled" don't mean the same thing…

I don't know really what you can do other than talk to them like a human being. The worst thing they can do is tell you to shove off. If they want to fight you, well, then there's the opportunity to show that they're a fake. Obviously don't provoke a fight but if they put their hands on you then it's fair game.

Okay, then, say they do fight you… and they beat you… badly. Are they now no longer a fraud? Is there claim (lineage) now legit and genuine? And what happens if someone with a legitimate lineage fights and loses? Is their lineage now fake? Are they now a fraud?

Aside from a few instances, most fakers don't get that far with their dojo/school because eventually the students will get disillusioned with the system.

Actually, some of the biggest schools around are the fake ones… mainly as they more closely match what people expect to see… I'll give an example or two later in this post.

Fraud? You mean Bogus? A heavilly striped misrepresentation of the Arts? A charlatan, a paper tiger, a strawman in a nice starched gi? Who ever heard of such a thing?

Again, that's not the same thing…

You know the sad part? It's not the guy who's purposely creating a con, it's the poor kid who was promoted way past his ability and thrust to the front of his organization's latest money making arm.

Okay, how about an art with an invented history, but some serious training is given, skill is as earned as in a "genuine" school, the "poor kid" is skilled and solid, and earned his grade the same way you would in a BJJ class (for example)… but the art is still "fraudulent" when taken as a literal term? What if there is no "money making arm", just someone trying to impart the best skills he can in the best way he knows how, regardless of how authentic the history is?

I would not train or teach under him or allow him into any class I was teaching. Other than that, nothing, I am not the martial arts police.

Okay… how would you know if they were fraudulent? Say they claimed to be a traditional Japanese Jujutsu system… what they did certainly looked a lot like it… very similar throws, some very Japanese weapons… but what they did was based in a false history? How about if, even with the false history, their techniques (say, the throws) were solid, and the guy did them well? Does that change anything?

I think it is hard to watch as a martial artist. Since everyone that starts there training knows nothing as a beginner, un-educated about what martial arts is and what to look for, you really have a hard time knowing until you gain experience and start research, you begin to see what works and what doesn't work. Hoshin1600 I guess you can offer to teach them. but all you can do is talk to them even though they bring down martial arts as a whole. I hope this is a hypothetical question and not one in the area, message me and let me know if it is :).

Do they really "bring martial arts down", though? And what separates them from you, to the point that you classify yourself as a martial artist, but (by implication) not them?

In general, nothing. You can't police the whole martial arts world. Also, people have different ideas about what counts as genuine qualifications and who counts as a fraud.

Yep. Although when we're talking lineage (historically verifiable claims), it can be a bit more cut and dried as to what is genuine and what isn't… although not always.

The exception is someone claiming BJJ rank, especially black belt status. The BJJ community polices that pretty vigilantly. An unqualified individual teaching with a phony BJJ black belt can expect to have his name and the details of his fraud broadcast worldwide as a warning for potential students. (In years past the consequences might be more ... physical, but we're mostly more civilized these days.:cool: )

This is only possible because the BJJ community is still relatively small and the existing lineages are known. Any legitimate BJJ black belt will have a provable lineage leading back to either the Gracie family or Oswaldo Fadda.

Koryu are also something that are rather difficult to fake… but the problem with both the Koryu and BJJ "self policing" is that that is done within the community itself… I wouldn't trust a BJJ guy to have a clue about what makes for legit Koryu, and vice versa. And an outsider to either/both would have even less clue. I mean… I've done some time with BJJ… I'm probably one of the better educated in this area (legitimacy and historical claims) here… and I'd suggest it's still possible for someone to "fake" a BJJ lineage with me. Of course, they might simply make up (or claim an alternate lineage) where their line comes from… but could still have legit skills… which makes it even harder to figure out. If they are claiming to teach "the real, original BJJ, with all the tornado kicks and three sectional staff still in it"… that's a different story…

if someone is a complete fraud as martial artists i feel we should never take the path of a physical solution just because that is what we train about. so lets take that off the table.

Sorry, just to clarify here… are you saying that we train not to physically engage? Cause… that's kinda the opposite of how I'd describe martial arts… they're all about the physical engagement. As far as not looking to engage (aggressively), well, that's going to come down to the art and the person with regards to whether it's part of "what we train"… but I'll just throw this term out there: dojo yaburi (道場破り)...

if someone is teaching and claiming rank in something and its clear that he/ she is not authentic, as a community do we not have the responsibility to gaurd against this?

That will depend on your relationship to what they're claiming to teach. As in the Koryu/BJJ examples given, such things are typically policed by the group affected.

Out of interest… how would you tell that they aren't "authentic"? For example, pick an art you might not know much about… say… capoeira… or pekiti silat. Without knowing what the ranking is, how it's attained, or how the art is structured/works, how do you determine what is or is not "authentic"?

in the Gracie example yes i am sure they would pursue this because it is the family name. but if it was just advertised as grappling and not mentioned their name ?

Why would the advertising as "grappling" be fraudulent, if they're teaching grappling (from whatever source)?

this problem has existed a long long time. there was a point a few years ago that there was something brewing on the government level that they were going to set standards and begin to regulate martial arts ( all standards seemed to be tae kwon do based) you would then need to be licensed by your state. not sure how all that would work.

Yeah… I've seen a number of attempts. Honestly, it simply can't work on a practical level at all. After all… based on the standards of TKD, how do you rate and credential my Iai training? You'd need expert input from, basically, all the different systems, methodologies, and approaches out there… which will, by necessity, include these "fake" schools… which defeats the purpose of using it to keep out the fakes in the first place.

but there should be some controls on this. i dont think it should be on the state or federal level but why within any governing body of a style does no one do anything?

Many do. They just don't do a big song and dance about it. And it can't be an outside source that does it (such as a government, or even a specialist government agency). The practical knowledge simply can't be there.

i do know many years ago my aikido teacher Fumio toyoda would go to other schools that claimed to teach aikido and ask them for their certificate from hombu dojo and who back in Japan gave them authorization to teach. he would then give them a cease and desist letter. this lead to many re-naming what they did aki- jiujitsu.

Yep.

i know anyone can open their doors and teach but i feel authentic style organizations should do more to prevent the unsavory use of that style and system name.

And, again, they do. I know of legal cases and claims being brought against people using titles and system names that they have no legal right to.

if organizations did a better job at controlling this then "buyer beware" the consumer would be able to make better choices based on the well known system and style.

I like your ideal, but no, they wouldn't.

if consumers were buying a car they would by a chevy, ford or toyota. not many would buy the Hoshin, whatchamacallit. (its not that reliable and it dont look pretty but it will cost you 10k) it should be the same with martial arts. am i being to idealistic?

If they wanted to be safe, maybe… but even then, there's no guarantee. And there are a large number of makes of car that are not in the mass-populace's awareness… but are awesome machines. Not knowing a "brand name" isn't always an indication that it's a poorer choice…

Agreed. Certain Brazilians of a previous generation had a different perspective, but those individuals did a lot of thing that I don't think should be emulated.

Ha, should go through some of the old Japanese stories… tsujikiri, for example…

The problem is that (in most countries at least), no one has a trademark on the name of most martial arts. Even if they did, you can always alter the name enough to come up with your own variation. If I were to start telling people that I am the 39th generation grandmaster of White Dragon Kung Pow Jutsu, the best response from others would be just to point out that there is no such thing and that I'm being a very silly person.

Well, yes, you would be a very silly, silly Tony… ha!

Of course, your big exception will be Japan and Koryu… there, the arts are very much legal trademark/copyright situations. If someone was to open a school teaching "Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu" with no association (or accreditation) with the Ryu itself… well… that's a legal issue… and is treated as such quite seriously.

This does happen to a greater or lesser extent in different arts. One major problem is that the whole thing gets caught up in politics. Someone studies for 15 years in organization A, then has a falling out with their instructor and forms organization B. The original instructor immediately announces that the practitioner in question never learned the full art and is unqualified to teach it. Now repeat a few hundred times. In short order, you have a host of different schools and organizations with different standards who don't recognize the qualifications of practitioners from the competing organisations.

This gets kinda dicey, as if it's a new association but the same art, it will come down to the individual approaches of each… and students will need to make up their own minds. If person B creates their own new system within their new organisation, then it's really no matter, and just mud slinging… but all of this is actually quite removed from the idea of fraudulent behaviour and fake systems… none of this is meeting the criteria for that… simply political splits within a lineage.

As nasty as political feuds in BJJ can get, at least BJJ practitioners mostly recognize each others awarded ranks as legitimate , even if it comes from a rival instructor. (This might not have been the case if Helio had succeeded in his early attempts to control the entire art, but the Gracie family was too large and fractious to allow him to get away with that.)

There are other reasons for that, as opposed to the way other arts don't as easily recognise rank from other systems/organisations/instructors. For example, I have a Bujinkan dan grade practitioner looking to start with me soon… and, despite our historical link, in a very real way, his black belt means absolutely nothing in our organisation. From a practical standpoint, he holds no rank at all. He might have a lot of skill… and a lot of knowledge… but that's not the same thing at all.

So let's look at some examples of "fake" arts… we'll start with some that I have personal experience with.

A friend of mine teaches a particular system that he learnt from his father and godfather. His godfather is the founder of the system itself (in the UK in the 50's), and his father is the second head of the art. In simple terms, the art is a combination of basic judo nage-waza and katame waza, karate daken methods, some aikido kansetsu waza (none of these in a "complete" form) combined with weaponry systems that are, honestly, largely made up (with a visual basis in both Japanese and Ryukyu methodology)… but betraying a number of traits that show that they're not authentic in their origin. My friend believes (as he's been taught) that his godfather learnt a number of classical Japanese systems while briefly stationed there in the 40's and 50's… some of which he's named to me (and none of which have any evidence of any place in the methodology of his art at all)… and describes it as "classical Japanese martial arts… the art of the samurai… koden bujutsu (old transmission martial arts)". Sad to say, it's none of these things at all.

So… that's a fraudulent system. But does it mean that the practitioners don't have skills? Nope, not at all. They train diligently, and the school is very big and successful. The issue is the claims made… it's not traditional, it's not classical, it's not even Japanese (although it takes a lot from Japanese arts). My friend even goes to Japan each year to try to research the origins of his art, based on the stories he's been given… but always comes back with nothing but tenuous possibilities. He takes the opportunity while in Japan to train in authentic arts… but doesn't (or won't) make the connection to the lack of authenticity of his own art.

With regards to RTKDCMB's comment about not training with (frauds)… I have trained under my friend at a seminar once. He was teaching his arts sword approach (which I wanted to attend to confirm what I saw) as part of a three-instructor day. The seminar was organised by a Hapkido instructor whose school my friend teaches sword at once a month… and the Hapkido instructor made a number of references to him being "a samurai"… and teaching "genuine samurai sword"… neither of which are correct either. At the same seminar was an instructor of a modern Western "Jujitsu" system… which was really bastardised form of karate combined with low-level Judo throws. Again, the instructor claimed that it was "traditional jujitsu"… based on the idea that "it works"… and that he was taught by a "former police officer"… although he couldn't identify any actual history for the art. The point is that, as far as the Hapkido instructor knew, both the other guys were teaching legitimate traditional Japanese martial arts… but, by that criteria, both were "frauds".

Just to highlight this, I'm going to link a few videos… some of these systems are legit… some aren't. I'm wondering who can tell which is which…





 
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hoshin1600

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Just to highlight this, I'm going to link a few videos… some of these systems are legit… some aren't. I'm wondering who can tell which is which…
that was easy...video number 2 is clearly the real deal. :) but your right the Jigen Ryu video looks like something that is fake but i think i have seen the style before so i am guessing its real but i am not a Koryu expert. the last video has me guessing as well. i see some Japanese art in it as well as some Chinese Chin-na but i dont see some tell tale signs of it being Chin-na, it just stands out to me as legit technique but as a "put together" system. thats my guess for what its worth ( not much).

Sorry, just to clarify here… are you saying that we train not to physically engage? Cause… that's kinda the opposite of how I'd describe martial arts… they're all about the physical engagement. As far as not looking to engage (aggressively), well, that's going to come down to the art and the person with regards to whether it's part of "what we train"… but I'll just throw this term out there: dojo yaburi (道場破り)...
what i was making an attempt to do was to be polite and not have the thread go down the path where people make posts about busting down the doors and making challenges.
 

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so there seems to be a few threads going on right now about lineage. i know this sight does not allow fraud busting so i am trying to be respectfull of that (and i hope everyone else does too), but my question is, out in the real world if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?

I wouldn't do anything at all. Other than give my opinion if asked. Been a few of those places not far from where I sit right now. Gone now, don't know if there's new ones around. I don't care much anymore, other than feeling badly for the folks that get sucked in.

Okay, how about an art with an invented history, but some serious training is given, skill is as earned as in a "genuine" school, the "poor kid" is skilled and solid, and earned his grade the same way you would in a BJJ class (for example)… but the art is still "fraudulent" when taken as a literal term? What if there is no "money making arm", just someone trying to impart the best skills he can in the best way he knows how, regardless of how authentic the history is?

I have no problem with anyone getting good training. I'm not sure why anyone would make up a history, though.

As for fraudulent, by some definitions in this thread I teach and train in a fraudulent art. American Karate. It's all made up. Keeps changing, too. I'm just fine with that. :)
 

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I've been pondering this for a bit. What I consider fraudulent is probably different from what others might think. Or different levels of fraud, at the least.

I can only speak from what I've seen first hand, here in Massachusetts. One guy made second degree black belt from, what I consider, a very experienced and well known Martial Artist. The guy then left, promoted himself to tenth degree and opened a chain of schools across the country. It was weak Martial Arts and played to the making of really big dollars. I know it was weak Martial Arts because they had tournaments within their organization and a lot of his students came to me to learn how to fight in a tournament. They had to do it on the sly and I never charged them, my guys felt bad for them and they all helped out in the training. This would be after classes behind locked doors. They were so poorly trained, it was sad.

Then there was another kind of fraud altogether. They were well versed in cherry picking students who had large egos and even larger wallets. They would run background checks on their students, get full family histories. Then they'd start playing to the right egos. They'd film them and then "send the tape to the exalted, high Master" in the old country. Then they'd tell them the Master sees something in them that he rarely sees anymore. He wants them to enroll in an advanced instructors course. Seventy thousand dollars later (in less than eighteen months) he would be filmed again, tape sent to the Master, and be encouraged to enroll in the Grand Poobah Master's Program.

I know what you're thinking, "Nobody would fall for that!" Unfortunately, they would and did. I worked with the FBI to get some of these Mother F'rs shut down and convicted. They, too, were a national chain.

So, to me, there's different levels of fraud.
 
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As for fraudulent, by some definitions in this thread I teach and train in a fraudulent art. American Karate. It's all made up. Keeps changing, too. I'm just fine with that. :)
i have no problems with that either. as long as you except it for what it is , then its not fraud in my opinion. fraud to me comes on when you start making false claims. like a made up lineage or a fighting record that doesnt exist. fraud is when someone claims to have studied under someone well known when in fact the closest the person got to them was a book. fraud is when entire organizations claim to be the successor and results from an individual who is supposed to be the 21st great grand master of the style. when this is an outright lie used as an attempt to create ligitimacy.
 
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i really see nothing wrong with trying to create a new system and found a new lineage. but if i claim that the system i teach is Tachikawa ryu and was created by the Shingon priest Nikan in the year 1113 in Japan and i studied under the 43 great grand master and that its a really good system for women to learn, i usually only teach it to women in private lessons because of its effectiveness. (maybe only Chris Parker will get the referance here) i would be lying and a fraud and up to no good.
 

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Koryu are also something that are rather difficult to fake…

Actually it's the exact opposite, since Koryu have the double whammy of having old origins, and not being expected to have a strong sparring base. So you can you have frauds concocting phony lineages, and teaching their students BS while never having a mechanism in place to actually prove that they're legit.
 
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Actually it's the exact opposite, since Koryu have the double whammy of having old origins, and not being expected to have a strong sparring base. So you can you have frauds concocting phony lineages, and teaching their students BS while never having a mechanism in place to actually prove that they're legit.
i wish i had an emoji of me slaping my forehead and shaking my head.
in the words of Dr, Evil....."you just dont get it ..do you scott (Hanzou)" the world dosent revolve around MMA and competition. your view of the world seems very skewed.
 

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