But I think the point of Joseph Campbell's book is that people follow the storyline subconsciously. They don't even recognize that they're following a style that goes back to Homer. He recognized that people had been doing this for centuries.Rich Parsons said:
Lord of the Rings vs Star Wars
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Tgace
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...with+a+thousand+faces"+written&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
So I was mistaken. They were approximately being written in the same time period, however Tolkien had been putting together the ground work for the books as far back as WWI. The LOTR is based in Tolkiens interest in linguistics and the early European myths that the languages were written in. I doubt Campbells work came out soon enough or was popular enough to be an influence on JRR.
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...with+a+thousand+faces"+written&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
So I was mistaken. They were approximately being written in the same time period, however Tolkien had been putting together the ground work for the books as far back as WWI. The LOTR is based in Tolkiens interest in linguistics and the early European myths that the languages were written in. I doubt Campbells work came out soon enough or was popular enough to be an influence on JRR.
Tgace said:
Thanks Tom,
I know they were published after they were written. Does anyone know from if they were written and not published for a while?
arnisador said:
Yes, I understand that point, and a guideline or format for a good story is a good story. I have seen multiple things developed my multiple people with no contact, maybe some similiar inputs, such as education or access to technology, but multiple people can come up with the same idea, independantly of others.
I just have a problem making real general sweeping statements that apply to everything with out any caveats.
Yes, I imagine that Campbell's claims could easily be overbroad. (I haven't read his book.) And convergent evolution happens in technology and in writing, just like in biology! But I think guideline is probably not a strong enough word--my understanding is that Campbell's claim is that there's a combination of Jungian archetype(s) and also that we don't realize how constrained we are to write stories that are similar to other stories we've read.
It's been said that every calculus text ever written has been either a copy of Euler or a copy of a copy of Euler. We find it hard to see new ways of doing it after seeing his way. So, I think that instead of viewing The Hero storyline as a guideline, we're meant to see it as a distillation of what he saw writer after writer after writer doing. It was description, not proscription.
As I write this I wonder if I'm taking 'guideline' as you meant it! I see it as a proscriptive term.
It's been said that every calculus text ever written has been either a copy of Euler or a copy of a copy of Euler. We find it hard to see new ways of doing it after seeing his way. So, I think that instead of viewing The Hero storyline as a guideline, we're meant to see it as a distillation of what he saw writer after writer after writer doing. It was description, not proscription.
As I write this I wonder if I'm taking 'guideline' as you meant it! I see it as a proscriptive term.
Tgace
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Well i do know that the LOTR's genesis was in a bunch of notebooks compiled by JRR going back to the 20's (or even earlier im guestimating). They were basically a group of epic poems based on a Finnish epic called the Kelekaveda (sp?). This was the base mythology for the Silmarillian and gave birth to the LOTR. Even though I believe the Silmarillian was published after the LOTR, all the work was already in existance as notebooks.Rich Parsons said:
I think that's right...the Silmarillion was what he started with, even though it was published posthumously. He had been working on it for a long time, and was driven in large measure by his interests in linguistics. (A lot of effort went into making the languages authentic.) The other books were created later, and teh Silmarillion was never truly finished.
His son recently published heavily annotated versions of the books--it's interesting to read the notes. He footnotes places where an original line has been chanegd and gives it, translates things not translated in the text, lists original choices for names, and so on. I've only flipped through them but would enjoy reading them some day.
His son recently published heavily annotated versions of the books--it's interesting to read the notes. He footnotes places where an original line has been chanegd and gives it, translates things not translated in the text, lists original choices for names, and so on. I've only flipped through them but would enjoy reading them some day.
Tgace said:
Yes that is what my guestimate also, and with the Silmarillian, where he even created the language of the elves. I also nicked named the Silmarillian the book of names
. This book also has its classic heros and heroines.
arnisador said:
Well I have thought about writting and have created some story lines, to have people tell me it sounds just like (* insert series here *). I never really did follow up after this happened numerous times, and I had not read the series in question, I was just thinking and poutting down thoughts.
So, I agree that my experiences with other books, may have given me a formula, that I was unconsciously following, so the proscription is a term I would also use, as it is a formula.
As to Calculus books, been a while since I read one, but some were easier than others, based upon examples, and who it was presented. Yet again the big difference could have been the instructors,
so I guess I have to pass on that one, until I review my books . Yes I still have them and they are in reach if I were to need one.
Well I was going to stay out of this thread but I feel compelled to respond since Star Wars seems to be loosing in the poles. Let me start by making note that I like LOTRs They were good movies with good imagination and great special effects. The soundtracks for LOTRs were top notch but done in Dolby Digital I prefer THX or DTS but still sounded good on my system.
Now on to Star Wars, I remember going to the theater way back when the original Star Wars came out (my first movie to see in a theater) when the movie started the sound was UNBELIEVABLE. The story yes a little cheesy but what George Lucas did was way ahead of his time. I watched a special on the Discovery channel that showed the actors talking about the making of the movie and how they were afraid that this would be a flop. They had no idea how good the special affects and sound format for this move would turn out until they saw it on the big screen for them self. Even the actors were blown away.
Now I see a lot of talk of Tolkeins ability to write Im not looking to take that away but lets talk about the fact that George Lucas set the bar for movie theater sound as we know it. He would not show his movies in a theater unless the sound system met his strict requirements. His team of engineers created THX or Thomas Holms Experiment. Now any of the better receivers on the market today some 20 something years later still display the THX logo to show that they meet the requirements set fourth by Lucas Films LTD.
Now on to Star Wars, I remember going to the theater way back when the original Star Wars came out (my first movie to see in a theater) when the movie started the sound was UNBELIEVABLE. The story yes a little cheesy but what George Lucas did was way ahead of his time. I watched a special on the Discovery channel that showed the actors talking about the making of the movie and how they were afraid that this would be a flop. They had no idea how good the special affects and sound format for this move would turn out until they saw it on the big screen for them self. Even the actors were blown away.
Now I see a lot of talk of Tolkeins ability to write Im not looking to take that away but lets talk about the fact that George Lucas set the bar for movie theater sound as we know it. He would not show his movies in a theater unless the sound system met his strict requirements. His team of engineers created THX or Thomas Holms Experiment. Now any of the better receivers on the market today some 20 something years later still display the THX logo to show that they meet the requirements set fourth by Lucas Films LTD.
