Looking for written sources on TKD

[KarateMomUSA]

What he accomplished was to create a wedge between his followers and the rest of Taekwondo. Imagine if there had not been a General Choi. Unification would have occurred much sooner and many of the conflicts that we see today wouldn't exist.

Yes maybe they would have united & maybe they wouldn't. But we know for sure that IF they did unite it would have been under the name of Tae Soo Do.
Maybe Dr Kim Un Yong would not have had to take over TKD's leadership in south Korea. Maybe the internationalizaion of it may never have taken off or be so fast without Gen Choi.
But regardless of all that, you still don't want to acknowledge all that he did with his follwers, much of which was simply never matched by the other Pioneers to the scale & scope that he did it. Even if Gen Choi was the worst man that ever lived & was the biggest obstacle & pain in the neck with the Kukki Tae Soo Do guys, what he did, his contributions & accomplishments stand & can not & will not be ignored by history, just because he had enemies.

 

[puunui]

Yes maybe they would have united & maybe they wouldn't. But we know for sure that IF they did unite it would have been under the name of Tae Soo Do.

that wouldn't bother me. I don't have any sort of vested interest in or emotional attachment to the name Taekwondo.

Maybe Dr Kim Un Yong would not have had to take over TKD's leadership in south Korea.

That would have happened whether or not General Choi was there.

Maybe the internationalizaion of it may never have taken off or be so fast without Gen Choi.

Maybe in certain countries like Malaysia, which isn't a WTF powerhouse, and never was. Truth be known, General Choi jumped the gun on the "internationalization" and all that did was create wedges to unification because he put his forms out there that practitioners had to overcome and unlearn. A better approach would be to first get Korea unified, then expand internationally. And in fact, that is exactly what the pioneers did. They sent out thousands of instructors throughout the world from the 70's, unprecedented before or since.

But regardless of all that, you still don't want to acknowledge all that he did with his follwers, much of which was simply never matched by the other Pioneers to the scale & scope that he did it.

I do acknowledge what he did for his "followers", which was to create a wedge between them and the rest of the Taekwondo world. You think that is a good thing. You are entitled to your opinion, just like I am entitled to mine.

Even if Gen Choi was the worst man that ever lived & was the biggest obstacle & pain in the neck with the Kukki Tae Soo Do guys, what he did, his contributions & accomplishments stand & can not & will not be ignored by history, just because he had enemies.

Yeah, and it will be you, "KarateMomUSA" who does neither Karate nor lives in the USA (are you even a mom?) that makes sure General Choi is not ignored. If you wish to sing the praises of Benedict Arnold, so that he takes his rightful place in history, then go for it. But please know that that is exactly how the majority of Korean born practitioners see him, as Benedict Arnold.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Maybe Dr Kim Un Yong would not have had to take over TKD's leadership in south Korea.


That would have happened whether or not General Choi was there.

I am not so sure & of course we will never know as the chain of events that made history happened, so we can't not for sure what would have happened.
But Dr Kim was asked to oversee TKD because there was internal problems & I thought those internal problems with unification was all because of Gen Choi! As a govt official he had responsibilities.
So I know Gen Choi was the "permanent trouble maker", but have come to read that the Pioneers were working for unification & Gen Choi was the interference. So who else fought unification? Was their only 1 trouble maker?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Maybe in certain countries like Malaysia, which isn't a WTF powerhouse, and never was. Truth be known, General Choi jumped the gun on the "internationalization" and all that did was create wedges to unification because he put his forms out there that practitioners had to overcome and unlearn. A better approach would be to first get Korea unified, then expand internationally. And in fact, that is exactly what the pioneers did. They sent out thousands of instructors throughout the world from the 70's, unprecedented before or since.

Yes there were & are many nations that are ITF powerhouses. Malaysia was the 2nd home of TKD, then Vietnam.
Now I am not so sure he did jump the gun on "internationalization" as he was so very successful in spreading his TKD world-wide with a true worldwide standard that the KKW is now trying to do as well.
Maybe they should have just had him set it up for him, as he succeeded long before they did & did it to a level that was truly unprecedented to date!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
But regardless of all that, you still don't want to acknowledge all that he did with his followers, much of which was simply never matched by the other Pioneers to the scale & scope that he did it.

I do acknowledge what he did for his "followers", which was to create a wedge between them and the rest of the Taekwondo world. You think that is a good thing. You are entitled to your opinion, just like I am entitled to mine.

........If you wish to sing the praises of Benedict Arnold, so that he takes his rightful place in history, then go for it. But please know that that is exactly how the majority of Korean born practitioners see him, as Benedict Arnold.

Listen sir I am sure that if you were ever to an ITF world championship held towards the end of Gen Choi's life, you would see 1st hand & up close the amazing feat that he accomplished with the scope of his worldwide standard. I do hope the KKW & WTF will have the same success with their Poomsae tournaments.
As far as the Benedict Arnold slur, I wonder what source you use for your claim above: "is exactly how the majority of Korean born practitioners see him"?
Is it from your circle, that is becoming more apparent that is fairly close minded

 

[KarateMomUSA]

"create wedges to unification"

There can certainly be many reasons why a wedge forms. In any event, even if it was 100% any one particular person's fault, which common sense tells most of us it rarely ever is, why does it seem that you appear to be so adamant at slurring a man & tarnishing his significant record of accomplishments after the wedge, that he was able to achieve with his style of TKD?
Then on the other hand you say, we want unification with all TKDin. That certainly seems to me to be a strange way to welcome non Kukki TKDin.

 

[puunui]

Listen sir I am sure that if you were ever to an ITF world championship held towards the end of Gen Choi's life, you would see 1st hand & up close the amazing feat that he accomplished with the scope of his worldwide standard. I do hope the KKW & WTF will have the same success with their Poomsae tournaments.

It is no accomplishment to have standardization at a poomsae tournament. The WTF has done that in short order in only a couple of events. So what if General Choi did the same thing with the ITF tournaments. Of course everyone who attends poomsae tournaments want to adhere to the judging standards so they can win. It wasn't because of General Choi, it was because the competitors wanted to win. It is the same in any form tournament.

As far as the Benedict Arnold slur, I wonder what source you use for your claim above: "is exactly how the majority of Korean born practitioners see him"? Is it from your circle, that is becoming more apparent that is fairly close minded

I don't see too many Korean borns who are still loyal to General Choi. They pretty much all left except for a few when he started going to North Korea. You even said the same thing, remember? You singing the praises of General Choi at this point is the same as coming to the United States and attempting to sing the praises of Benedict Arnold, with the exception that Benedict Arnold I don't think took credit for the naming of the US, if anyone really cares who named our country.

 

[puunui]

I am not so sure & of course we will never know as the chain of events that made history happened, so we can't not for sure what would have happened. But Dr Kim was asked to oversee TKD because there was internal problems & I thought those internal problems with unification was all because of Gen Choi! As a govt official he had responsibilities. So I know Gen Choi was the "permanent trouble maker", but have come to read that the Pioneers were working for unification & Gen Choi was the interference. So who else fought unification? Was their only 1 trouble maker?

I scored in the 99th percentile on my SAT, and that was on two hours of sleep, hungover, no breakfast, no prep course and 5-10 minutes late to the test. How did you do? Go read that section in the Modern History book again, perhaps a couple of times. It is easier than me trying to explain it and then you coming back with more commentary (without any additional facts to support your position, again). It says exactly why Dr. Kim entered into the Taekwondo world. Of course, if you wish to credit General Choi for the appearance of Dr. Un Yong KIM in Taekwondo, then I suppose you can do that. That wouldn't be anymore outrageous than some of the other claims you have made while singing the praises of General Choi.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It is no accomplishment to have standardization at a poomsae tournament. The WTF has done that in short order in only a couple of events. So what if General Choi did the same thing with the ITF tournaments. Of course everyone who attends poomsae tournaments want to adhere to the judging standards so they can win. It wasn't because of General Choi, it was because the competitors wanted to win. It is the same in any form tournament.

I don't see too many Korean borns who are still loyal to General Choi. They pretty much all left except for a few when he started going to North Korea. You even said the same thing, remember? You singing the praises of General Choi at this point is the same as coming to the United States and attempting to sing the praises of Benedict Arnold, with the exception that Benedict Arnold I don't think took credit for the naming of the US, if anyone really cares who named our country.

No the ITFers did want to win & they could ONLY WIN if they were the closest performer to the technical standard set by Gen Choi, that he taught personally all around the world.

It is factual that Benedict Arnold worked with the enemy. History tells us that.
History is not yet written & Gen Choi's intelligence folder is still top secret.
What he did was also not as cut & dry as what Arnold did. He was after all a Canadian citizen that was living in exile, because of the brutality of the military dictatorships that millions around the world know existed. Gen Choi was also engaged in spreading his art of Taekwon-Do around the world, without regard to race, religion, national boundaries & political ideology. To the same places that the WTF followed him to. They are even trying to get into north Korea. Gen Choi, using TKD as a political tool, like others have used sports & cultural exchanges to bridge gaps & foster understanding between those with difficulties coming together. History shows us how these type of exchanges have helped to an extent. The US govt encourages these types of exchanges as does so many other around the world.
So in a tragic separation like Korea, where families have had no contact for decades, efforts to break through, soften tensions, create good will & shared activities, do play a part & will be judged favorable by history. Geez Gen Choi even was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.
You are also mistaken when you say that there are not many Korean born who are loyal to Gen Choi. There are countless in north Korea & others around the world. When history gets recorded correctly, his fan group will grow. It is inevitable, even if that is problematic for some & troublesome for certain agendas.

 

[puunui]

There can certainly be many reasons why a wedge forms. In any event, even if it was 100% any one particular person's fault, which common sense tells most of us it rarely ever is, why does it seem that you appear to be so adamant at slurring a man & tarnishing his significant record of accomplishments after the wedge, that he was able to achieve with his style of TKD? Then on the other hand you say, we want unification with all TKDin. That certainly seems to me to be a strange way to welcome non Kukki TKDin.

I am not adamant to slur General Choi; what I am adamant about is that we tell the truth. Again, you add no additional facts to the discussion and your sole "contribution" has been to spin and slant evidence and facts that I have provided in an effort to assure General Choi his wrongful place in history. The fact of the matter is that General Choi hurt Taekwondo by creating his "ITF vs. WTF" duality. The ITF members who you claim "benefited" from General Choi's immeasurable and incomparable contributions have in fact been hurt because they are now isolated and excluded from the rest of Taekwondo, by their choice or not. Just read his autobiography if you do not believe me, which is filled with story after story of how he fought this person, or went against the grain on this issue, or he stood up to this other person. Everywhere he went he added nothing except headache and turmoil for everyone unfortunate enough to have to interact with him. How can you get a cooperative group effort going when someone like that is always interjecting and forcing something that goes against the grain?

If he had been smart, and not so uncooperative, he could have become the Oh Do Kwan Jang during the unification efforts, could have signed the Kwan Unity Declarations on behalf of the Oh Do Kwan, could have had perhaps two of the Chang Hon tul included within the Kukkiwon poomsae, and could have promoted people through the Oh Do Kwan and built a strong following that way. Instead, he chose to give the Kwan Jangs the finger and went his own way. And now we continue to suffer for it, including me, because I find myself in this distasteful discussion about a little man with the napoleon complex who did his best to screw up Taekwondo, when I could be doing something else.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I am not adamant to slur General Choi; what I am adamant about is that we tell the truth. Again, you add no additional facts to the discussion and your sole "contribution" has been to spin and slant evidence and facts that I have provided in an effort to assure General Choi his wrongful place in history. The fact of the matter is that General Choi hurt Taekwondo by creating his "ITF vs. WTF" duality. The ITF members who you claim "benefited" from General Choi's immeasurable and incomparable contributions have in fact been hurt because they are now isolated and excluded from the rest of Taekwondo, by their choice or not. Just read his autobiography if you do not believe me, which is filled with story after story of how he fought this person, or went against the grain on this issue, or he stood up to this other person. Everywhere he went he added nothing except headache and turmoil for everyone unfortunate enough to have to interact with him. How can you get a cooperative group effort going when someone like that is always interjecting and forcing something that goes against the grain?

Now I can only explain things here in written form. I can not comprehend it for readers.
What I am saying is that even if Gen Choi did cause every single problem that the Kukki TKD men ever accounted & even if he was the dark devil, Gen Choi spread his Korean martial art that he called TKD long before anyone else did, around the world. This popularization of his Original TKD was beneficial to both Korea & his students. While the level he did it at was unprecedented, from the standpoint of an individual, it also was Korea centered. Because of this, history credit him.
Now feel free to go back to how much of a trouble maker he was in south Korea, prior to when he entered into exile in 1972. I am talking about what he did from then & 1974, holding his 1st world championship in Montreal & 2001, his last championship in 2001 Italy that he presided over, till even his deathbed less than a year later.

So forget about Kukki TKD, Korea owes him a debt of gratitude, as do the countless millions around the world that he taught TKD to & introduced them to Korea. This is what he will rightfully be remembered for.
Now he can also be remembered for being a trouble maker in the process & development of Kukki TKD, that is fine, as it is also historically factual.
Likewise he will also garner credit for naming TKD, spreading it outside of Korea before anyone else, writing the 1st books on TKD & the most comprehensive set of books on TKD, or the martial arts.

Not to acknowledge some of these accomplishments is not only partisan bickering, but not very conducive to unity. TKD is TKD I thought.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The ITF members who you claim "benefited" from General Choi's immeasurable and incomparable contributions have in fact been hurt because they are now isolated and excluded from the rest of Taekwondo, by their choice or not.

Please sir the ITF members are not isolated. They are fragmented since his passing, with much of the blame going to him. There is a strong network & ITF fellowship all around the world. There are so many that still follow this Original TKD proudly, who do not feel that they need to be part of the KKW, WTF or Kukki TKD, which many of them look at as a sport, that they do not gravitate towards due to the lack of hands. Those that wish a shot at the Olympics always had it available to them & now if they go to the WTF via the WTA, that has even become easier for them. They now have access to CISM, the military Olympics & the WTF sparring. They have their Tuls there, in place as the standard, along with their pre-arranged free sparring or self defence routine, both ITF events, open even to the WTFers in CISM. They are working with Sports Accord as well on several levels.
Many look at their TKD as the martial art, with even others around the world thinking that it is the traditional TKD. The WTF president has acknowledged the ITFers & the TKD Park chairman has publicly called Gen Choi the founder of TKD. I am sure that the TKD Park will honor him & his followers as well.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Just.
Stop.

 

[puunui]

He was after all a Canadian citizen that was living in exile, because of the brutality of the military dictatorships that millions around the world know existed.

He lived in self imposed exile because he saw the handwriting on the wall, that it was going to crash down all around him. He left Korea, not because of "the brutality of military dictatorships" but because the WTF was coming and he could no longer pretend that the ITF was the offiical international division or branch for Taekwondo, that in fact, his ITF was nothing more than his own private organization. So he left and took his private organization with him. If it weren't his own private organization, then he wouldn't have been allowed to take the ITF when he left Korea, on the eve of the founding of the WTF and the hosting of the first World Taekwondo Championships in May 1973.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

He lived in self imposed exile because he saw the handwriting on the wall, that it was going to crash down all around him. He left Korea, not because of "the brutality of military dictatorships" but because the WTF was coming and he could no longer pretend that the ITF was the offiical international division or branch for Taekwondo, that in fact, his ITF was nothing more than his own private organization. So he left and took his private organization with him. If it weren't his own private organization, then he wouldn't have been allowed to take the ITF when he left Korea, on the eve of the founding of the WTF and the hosting of the first World Taekwondo Championships in May 1973.

No actually Gen Choi fled from south Korea early in 1972. Now please remember that 1972 was the height of the brutality of the Gen Park military dictator regime. This is pretty well known & you can check with Dr Bruce Cummings, PhD, a professor that was at The University of Chicago & other experts on Korean history. The fact that Gen Choi left when he was embroiled in the TKD efforts, is symbolic on how the regime was looking to marginalize him, as he was becoming a more outspoken critic of the methods that they used to keep people in line. This was not limited to Gen Choi. Countless Koreans suffered as political dissenters, with some taking years to be released & others never getting released as they were never found or not alive when found. Please do not discount this ugly & trying time of growing pains for a great democratic rich country of Korea, that was not always that way.
The ITF was registered with 2 separate branches of the south Korean govt. Its membership voted to move the headquarters to Canada.

It also must be pointed out that Gen Choi's family was held hostage back in Korea when he fled. Gen Park offered him an ambassadorship of his picking or even their foreign minister spot, their top diplomatic position. They eventually let his wife out & 1 daughter. This deal was brokered with the help of Grandmaster Jhoon Rhee & his students in the Republica Dominicana. One of Grandmaster Rhee's students was an American university educated man, who then returned home from Texas & secured a job in the US Embassy there. He used his connections to get the Dominican president to secure the release of Mrs Choi & 1 of the daughters. Eventually the remaining 2 children were released.
People may not want to know about these things, or talk about them. But they happened & things like this impacted the development of TKD & those that were involved in it.

 

[puunui]

No actually Gen Choi fled from south Korea early in 1972.

You don't think they were planning the WTF and the 1st World Taekwondo Championships in early 1972? At that point, early 1972, Dr. Kim had been on the job for over a year and his plan was to expand internationally. That was one of his strengths, because he served time overseas as a diplomat, and spoke several languages including english. They were also starting to publish things in english for circulation and the KTA, under Dr. Kim, started up the International Master Instructor certification program. What do you think that meant? General Choi knew what was going down, and he left.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Once you start to consider the outside non-related political happenings you will see why Gen Choi exiled himself to Canada. There is no doubt that what you say is accurate. I never denied those aspects. I simply say that in order to more fully understand why these things happened, we must also know the context. Even the Modern History addresses this: "However, the May 16 revolution was hell for him. General Choi was hated by ROK President PARK Chung Hee and as a result was forced out of the military and sent to
Malaysia as Ambassador."
This hatred & resentment grew over time, as Gen Park increased his dictatorial power by repressing the Korean people. This is simply undeniable. To not realize this & to not consider the impact it had on the context of the times that TKD developed in, is like burying one's head in the sand. As Gen Choi's criticism of the military dictatorship became more vocal, he became more of a target of that brutal military regime. Gen Park suspended the constitution, canceled elections, cracked down of freedom of speech & of the press, right to assemble etc.
Why do you ignore this?
Why do you not address the fact that his family was held hostage by the dictatorial regime when he fled?
Do you think they held his family hostage because he was this much needed, irreplaceable TKD iconic leader?

Common sense: Of course since he was hated by the military dictator, his efforts to build his TKD movement was hampered. However the sights of the brutal dictator were not focused on him solely for TKD, was it? As we know from what you wrote & continue to write, he was the insignificant person who played no real role in TKD. So why was he hated by Gen Park?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Common sense: Of course since he was hated by the military dictator, his efforts to build his TKD movement was hampered. However the sights of the brutal dictator were not focused on him solely for TKD, was it? As we know from what you wrote & continue to write, he was the insignificant person who played no real role in TKD. So why was he hated by Gen Park?

Maybe it had something to do with Gen. Choi being on the military tribunal that court martialed Park, Chung Hee and sentenced him to death? Maybe? I mean, that might put a damper on their relationship.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

FWIW, Park was arrested and by a military investigation team in 1948 on charges of engaging in communist activities while in the army. This was something that stemmed back to his days in KCOT (Korean Constabulary Officer Training), beginning at the end of 1946. Park ended up joining the South Korean Communist Party while at KCOT and helped develop the communist network within that school. When he was promoted to captain and made cadet commander at KCOT, consolidating his network while overseeing 420 cadets.

Park, along with the three other training officers of the Fifth Class, were arrested in 1984. The other three were executed. Park's sentence was reduced to a life sentence of hard labor.

Gen. Choi was on the court martial tribunal. I highly doubt that little detail was lost on Park.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Park, along with the three other training officers of the Fifth Class, were arrested in 1984. The other three were executed. Park's sentence was reduced to a life sentence of hard labor. Gen. Choi was on the court martial tribunal. I highly doubt that little detail was lost on Park.

Yeah, and President PARK Chung Hee had out for General Choi so badly that he allowed him to become the KTA President, and later when he was forced out of that position by other people, he allowed General Choi to set up the ITF and then have the Korean government pay for his hand selected instructors to teach overseas.

Here is what GM CHO Hee Il said about it:

*
When I left the Army, I made the decision that I wanted to leave Korea. I had no idea where I wanted to go and no means of getting there. At that time it was extremely difficult to gain permission to leave Korea. Exit involved long months, even years, of waiting for visas.

I had one option open to me. I enrolled in the Instructor's Training Center for Taekwon-Do instructions. This center was then headed by General Choi.... The students who graduated first and second from the course received the chance to go overseas and work for the government as a Taekwondo instructor. You can well imagine the fierce competition among students to achieve this freedom.

I was lucky. Well, it wasn't all luck; I worked harder than I had ever worked before and I placed first. My journey with Taekwondo started from that moment. I was sent to India to train special combat forces in the Indian Desert. After a year in India, I had the choice of returning to Korea and the prospect of a somewhat limited future, or to reestablish myself elsewhere in the world.

*

If President Park have it out so badly for General Choi, why would he allow him to run this type of program sponsored by the Korean government? Why not have someone else do it?

PS: As for President Park holding General Choi's family hostage in Korea after General Choi left, GM Cho explains why: "At that time it was extremely difficult to gain permission to leave Korea. Exit involved long months, even years, of waiting for visas."