Looking for written sources on TKD

[KarateMomUSA]

It talks about GM NAM Tae Hi for example starting training when he was 18 at the Chung Do Kwan, which GM Lee and other Chung Do Kwan seniors said wasn't true. That sort of thing. He quotes from the Modern History, and my name is in there, so I actually contributed to his work. It's late and I am tired to go open that thing up and try to contradict what he wrote. If you want to believe what he wrote, then go ahead. I'm really not interested, even though I do have the book sitting on my itf dedicated bookcase.

It is not a matter of me believing what the author wrote, but rather you backing up claims made on a public forum.
I for one found that he didn't understand the evolution of sine wave fully enough to draw a more proper conclusion of how Gen Choi used it as a political tool. I also found a minor thing about who accompanied Gen Choi on a trip. But other than that, in going through his references, claims & footnotes (hundreds) I find not much else that I thought was wrong. That is why I asked for your valued input.
I just wish you would back up your claim, especially when it has a ring of a partisan tone to it, or at least could be interpreted that way.

 

[puunui]

It is not a matter of me believing what the author wrote, but rather you backing up claims made on a public forum.

I didn't make any claims. You asked me about a book that I read years ago, the contents of which, to tell you the truth, I am trying to forget. The author basically repeats all of the same stuff that General Choi has been saying. One example is the Taekkyon training that he supposedly had under HAN Il Dong, the calligrapher. GM Lee the head of Taekkyon in Korea, interviewed General Choi on tape I believe and it came out that General Choi admitted that he didn't learn Taekkyon from HAN Il Dong. That sort of stuff.

I really don't care about General Choi or what he said this point. He sort of reminds me of Colonel Kurtz in the movie Apocalypse Now, out in the middle of the jungle, doing things his way. I do care about the people that chose to follow him, who may feel that after he past away they are isolated and may wish to affiliate with Kukki Taekwondo. I want to help them because I think they are innocent victims.

 

[IcemanSK]

See to me, one can not really or more fully understand TKD's history until you start to grasp the nasty politics. It is not a conspiracy, it is what happened. It clearly goes into the accurate history of how Gen choi's TKD was developed & very clearly points out the political problems & underlying interference & reasons for it, which is needed to understand the controversies. I would much rather, from an intellectual discussion standpoint have you provide the readers with why you think it is "not so good" if you are not "an ITF person".
History to me is what happened, who made it happen, where & when it did it happen.
What did you find that you think, feel or know it not correct & why?

I tend to agree with your assessment & would add something. The author wrote out of his experience & what he had access to. (Or rather WHO he had access to). He had access to Gen Choi & other top ITF folks. He never met Dr. Kim & didn't have the type of first hand access to that info as he did the ITF info. Reading documents is one thing. Speaking to the authors is another. Gillis spoke to many people on both sides. But my point is, his access was greater within ITF circles. Therefore, it's heavy on the ITF side. I don't see that as a negative. But, I do take note of it as I read.

 

[miguksaram]

There are numerous inaccuracies in fact and the way he draws conclusions. He makes Taekwondo to be a seedy dirty thing, which is not how I view Taekwondo at all. To me, taekwondo is a beautiful creation, something that uplifts the spirit. Mr. gillies isn't into that. It's tiring and draining to read that book, just like it is tiring and draining to read general choi's autobiography.

I just started reading this book. I am up to Chapt. 6. So far I like it, but mostly because of the GM Nam's war story that he describes, more than anything else in there. He used one of my research papers as well for the book...so all I want are my royalties. ha.ha.ha. I am slow reading it because I also started reading Korea Old & New: A History by Lee, Ki-baek.

I am hoping to compare some of the happenings in Korean history with the book that Gillis to help sift fact from opinoin.

 

[puunui]

I just wish you would back up your claim, especially when it has a ring of a partisan tone to it, or at least could be interpreted that way.

I guess that is one way of looking at it, pointing out General Choi's lies and then getting called "partisian" for it. GM Son states that General Choi lied about his background in his 1959 newspaper ad. GM LEE Chong Woo talks about General Choi lying in the Yook article. Taekkyon GM LEE Yong Bok tape recorded General Choi admitting that he lied about learning Taekkyon from his calligraphy teacher HAN Il Dong.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I didn't make any claims. You asked me about a book that I read years ago, the contents of which, to tell you the truth, I am trying to forget. The author basically repeats all of the same stuff that General Choi has been saying. One example is the Taekkyon training that he supposedly had under HAN Il Dong, the calligrapher. GM Lee the head of Taekkyon in Korea, interviewed General Choi on tape I believe and it came out that General Choi admitted that he didn't learn Taekkyon from HAN Il Dong. That sort of stuff.

Yes I would equate that with GM Lee Chong Woo saying he lied about the history with the 2,000 year old myth. Gen Choi also wanted to connect TKD to Korea in some way. I am very well aware that Gen Choi's exposure to Taek Kyon was very limited, possiblt just stories related to him by his teacher.
One common mistake that is made is to discount info totally because of other flaws

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I tend to agree with your assessment & would add something. The author wrote out of his experience & what he had access to. (Or rather WHO he had access to). He had access to Gen Choi & other top ITF folks. He never met Dr. Kim & didn't have the type of first hand access to that info as he did the ITF info. Reading documents is one thing. Speaking to the authors is another. Gillis spoke to many people on both sides. But my point is, his access was greater within ITF circles. Therefore, it's heavy on the ITF side. I don't see that as a negative. But, I do take note of it as I read.

Yes I understand that. I also think that Mr Gillis makes a point that it was Gen choi who 1st applied the name TKD to what he was doing & developing, hence that adds credibility to claims of who founded TKD. The TaeSuDo guys only take the name some 10, 11 or more years later, but then sort of write him out of history.
I think there is no doubt that Gen Choi & his people used TKD for what they were doing 1st. However this may be the original TKD, but it is not the TKD that the world has come to know, which of course is Kukki TKD.
I would just be happy if people from both sides see the other side's history of their development & stop saying the other side is lying. One has nothing to do with the other, separate & maybe not even equal as KKW rules. They came from common roots, but developed differently & for some with different focuses
The greatest contribution of Mr Gillis' work is that to me, he documents the nasty Korean politics & the role that they played in TKD's development & history as well as discrediting Gen Choi & his followers

 

[IcemanSK]

Yes I understand that. I also think that Mr Gillis makes a point that it was Gen choi who 1st applied the name TKD to what he was doing & developing, hence that adds credibility to claims of who founded TKD. The TaeSuDo guys only take the name some 10, 11 or more years later, but then sort of write him out of history.
I think there is no doubt that Gen Choi & his people used TKD for what they were doing 1st. However this may be the original TKD, but it is not the TKD that the world has come to know, which of course is Kukki TKD.
I would just be happy if people from both sides see the other side's history of their development & stop saying the other side is lying. One has nothing to do with the other, separate & maybe not even equal as KKW rules. They came from common roots, but developed differently & for some with different focuses
The greatest contribution of Mr Gillis' work is that to me, he documents the nasty Korean politics & the role that they played in TKD's development & history as well as discrediting Gen Choi & his followers

As much as I'd hate to put the label of "fair & balanced" to the idea of another perspective of the TKD history issue, I think it fits. Meaning, I'd like to see the discussion from SEVERAL other points of view. GM Uhm, Woon Kyu has a pov I'd love to hear. There are many others, as well.

There is indeed much more that unites these pioneers than things that separate them. One's perspective certainly doesn't mean disagreement means someone lied. We like to play that game to feel superior to our opponents. And yes, it's really sad. No one here is complete hero or complete villain. To ascribe motives to those with whom we disagree is not helpful. Especially, some 50-odd years later.

 

[puunui]

Yes I would equate that with GM Lee Chong Woo saying he lied about the history with the 2,000 year old myth.

GM Lee always talked about Taekwondo beginning with the kwans, at least with me. As for the 2000 year old argument, Korea does have a cultural affinity for kicking, which is the basis for the emphasis for kicking in Taekwondo. Even GM LEE Won Kuk said that he focused on punching and hand development (see Chung Do Kwan symbol), but his students wanted to kick, especially jump kick. Take an American kid with no training, put him in a fighting situation, and he will put his hands up and box, or wrestle. Different culture, different style of fighting.

 

[puunui]

Yes I understand that. I also think that Mr Gillis makes a point that it was Gen choi who 1st applied the name TKD to what he was doing & developing, hence that adds credibility to claims of who founded TKD. The TaeSuDo guys only take the name some 10, 11 or more years later, but then sort of write him out of history.

The "TaeSuDo guys" didn't want the name Taekwondo. It upset them greatly that General Choi forced the name upon them, so much so that they made him resign and get out of the KTA. So again, for General Choi to force the name upon the KTA, and then try to infer that the "TaeSuDo guys" took his name and then wrote him out of history, like they stole something from him, is ridiculous. Can you see how twisted that is?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The "TaeSuDo guys" didn't want the name Taekwondo. It upset them greatly that General Choi forced the name upon them, so much so that they made him resign and get out of the KTA. So again, for General Choi to force the name upon the KTA, and then try to infer that the "TaeSuDo guys" took his name and then wrote him out of history, like they stole something from him, is ridiculous. Can you see how twisted that is?

Yes of course & this was part of the reason why he corrupted the thinking of some of his followers. That is why I look for a more complete understanding.
KTA, KKW & WTF could have = TaeSuDo
but
ITF always = Taekwon-Do

I really wish it would have stayed that way & Gen Choi's Chang Hon ITF TKD people have to know that this was his fault! if it stayed the way the TaeSuDo guys wanted it, they at most would have said, this TKD guy couldn't work with us, so we told him to go stick it. So he made the ITF & we went on to make the WTF or Kukki TaeSuDo. Then maybe others would have been less concerned with the other side. I still don't get why people still make a big deal about the other side. We are all martial artists!
In the words of the great LA philosopher, "Can't we all just get along"!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

GM Lee always talked about Taekwondo beginning with the kwans, at least with me. As for the 2000 year old argument, Korea does have a cultural affinity for kicking, which is the basis for the emphasis for kicking in Taekwondo. Even GM LEE Won Kuk said that he focused on punching and hand development (see Chung Do Kwan symbol), but his students wanted to kick, especially jump kick. Take an American kid with no training, put him in a fighting situation, and he will put his hands up and box, or wrestle. Different culture, different style of fighting.

Yes but he went on record with what I understand is a major Korean monthly publication stating that he came up with the fabrication that it was 2,000 years old, which became the template that so many used, as it was put out by the ROK Ministry of Education & it got repeated & repeated, which caused some much confusion & had the Japanese martial artists laugh at us

 

[puunui]

Yes but he went on record with what I understand is a major Korean monthly publication stating that he came up with the fabrication that it was 2,000 years old, which became the template that so many used, as it was put out by the ROK Ministry of Education & it got repeated & repeated, which caused some much confusion & had the Japanese martial artists laugh at us

I don't know how accurate the translation was so I can't speak to what you are saying. Personally, I don't really care if Japanese martial artists laugh at us. Do you? I don't care if Korean Martial Artists laugh at me. One more thing that I learned from the pioneers, including the USTU pioneers, you can't do much if worrying about what others think is foremost on your mind.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't know how accurate the translation was so I can't speak to what you are saying. Personally, I don't really care if Japanese martial artists laugh at us. Do you? I don't care if Korean Martial Artists laugh at me. One more thing that I learned from the pioneers, including the USTU pioneers, you can't do much if worrying about what others think is foremost on your mind.

You are right Sir, as I also don't care about others laughing at us from a personal standpoint. But my point goes more towards the reputation of TKD. If the "Mecca of TKD", the World TKD Academy, the national Korean TKD group, the IF for Olympic TKD & several ministries of the ROK govt say TKD is 2,000 years old, students & people believe that. Then when the karate guys laugh at that & they were the 1st ones to laugh as they knew it was not true as they were not misled by their leaders, it causes serious problems for TKD credibility & TKDin.
GM Lee Chong Woo was right when he stated that we don't have to lie anymore, as TKD is on top of the world, at least Kukki TKD. This is also a great contribution by Steve Capener PhD, as he says it would be better to acknowledge the roots of karate, but to show how TKD moved away from those roots, instead of trying to connect it to 2,000 years ago, as any direct connection, other than possible cultural traits & preferences is simply non-existent.
So now it is no longer the 60s & 70s & the internet has played a part in getting the truth out about the true roots, so it would be better if the south Korean entities tried better to get out in front of this & set the record straight

 

[puunui]

But my point goes more towards the reputation of TKD. If the "Mecca of TKD", the World TKD Academy, the national Korean TKD group, the IF for Olympic TKD & several ministries of the ROK govt say TKD is 2,000 years old, students & people believe that.

I don't think anyone really takes that stuff seriously. I think you are making a bigger deal out of this than it warrants. Again, none of the pioneers talk about that stuff when discussing history, at least not with me. And the Modern History book starts with the founding of the kwans. What more do you want?

 

[bluewaveschool]

I got GM Son's book for christmas. It's an interesting read. The patterns, not ones I know (he obviously wasn't going to adopt the Chang Hon tuls) but still interesting to see and easy enough to follow along. I like that there are lots of pictures, showing correct and incorrect ways of doing things. The SD section... let's skip it. I might start using his Six Step, and maybe a few other things, but I did not get what I I thought I would get. I guess I was expecting something more like GM Cho's The Complete Martial Artist.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
But my point goes more towards the reputation of TKD. If the "Mecca of TKD", the World TKD Academy, the national Korean TKD group, the IF for Olympic TKD & several ministries of the ROK govt say TKD is 2,000 years old, students & people believe that.

I don't think anyone really takes that stuff seriously. I think you are making a bigger deal out of this than it warrants. Again, none of the pioneers talk about that stuff when discussing history, at least not with me. And the Modern History book starts with the founding of the kwans. What more do you want?

Actually I can't believe you wrote this. It is a big deal. In fact a very big deal.
How many people do you think that the Kukki TKD Pioneers have really spoken to about history directly?
Point to any of these important people & show me, along with the other readers which if any, & I am sure there are, books that these Pioneers wrote or interviews that they gave, in which they have denied that TKD is 2,000 years old, shed any real light on the truth that TKD is a post WWII development or anything along those lines! In contrast, the KTA, KKW & WTF websites, along with every book that they have endorsed all repeat that mythical template.
Truth be told thanks go to Mr Kang Won Sik, current KKW president & Mr Lee, among others, like those who translated it, like Mr Glenn U & others, that this 1999 work was done during the administration of President Kim Dae Jung, only the 2nd democratically elected civilian president of the ROK. Mr Kim went on to win the Nobel Prize for Peace for his Sunshine Policy with the north. The military dictators were a thing of the past & now writers are more able to tell the truth, as govt censorship was fading. We will start to see more of the truth & complete story come out, like GM Lee Chong Woo's 2002 interview. The internet is also playing an important role in vetting the truth & spreading it.
But untold millions have had their understanding of TKD's true history corrupted by the 2,000 year old myth that appears in countless books, publications endorsed by the south Korean TKD groups & their own websites, still to this very day.

I call upon all TKD leaders to put forth more info on the all important "formative years" then the simple paragraph or 2 of that oft repeated template!

 

[puunui]

But untold millions have had their understanding of TKD's true history corrupted by the 2,000 year old myth that appears in countless books, publications endorsed by the south Korean TKD groups & their own websites, still to this very day.

And untold millions still believe that General Choi is the founder of Taekwondo. So what?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
But untold millions have had their understanding of TKD's true history corrupted by the 2,000 year old myth that appears in countless books, publications endorsed by the south Korean TKD groups & their own websites, still to this very day.

And untold millions still believe that General Choi is the founder of Taekwondo. So what?

It would be nice if you directed your answer to my point.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
But untold millions have had their understanding of TKD's true history corrupted by the 2,000 year old myth that appears in countless books, publications endorsed by the south Korean TKD groups & their own websites, still to this very day.

And untold millions still believe that General Choi is the founder of Taekwondo. So what?

OK the point is about the 2,000 year old myth. Now it is true that this has also caused confusion with Chang Hon stylists & Gen Choi sycophants, as it gives them the opening to spread their propagande. Now truth be told Gen Choi is the principle founder of Chang Hon TKD, ITF TKD or the TKD that was 1st called TKD.
However Gen Choi is just the principle founder of Taekwon-Do, not the sole founder. He was the leader of a team of talented soldiers who served under his command in the ROK military & then went on to follow him & spread their TK-D around the world, even before the KKW & WTF were formed.
No one that is informed & fair minded, with an open mind, can deny that Gen Choi was instrumental in his own system of TK-D!