Looking for a Taekwondo mentor

[skribs]

Oh I see where this is going and I think you would be way wrong to question the credentials of my instructor.

If someone cannot back up the claims they make, then those claims should be assumed to be false. If you make a claim, you should be capable of backing it up.

The thing is, had you not bragged about these credentials, or had you only bragged about things you can prove (or even remember), then we wouldn't have an issue.

It goes back to what I said about your jumping rank. If you would have progressed at least at the minimum allowed pace (or what you would call "the average student"), then I personally wouldn't question the validity of it. But you posted the dates. You made that information available to anyone who is capable of doing the math.

Had you been accelerated by someone who is 8th or 9th dan, I'd get it. Had you self-promoted at a slower pace, I'd also get it. I don't get self-promoting at an accelerated pace. It seems to be more about ego and pride than achievement.

 

[bluepanther]

In all fairness, as regards to how long it took him to attain his 7th degree should not be shady at all. The Kukkiwon itself will allow one skip-dan test in a lifetime so someone could easily knock off a few years on the way to 7th. I just think the self-promotion thing is where it gets shady.

My old Tang Soo Do instructor did this sort of thing. He was a member of the World Tang Soo Do Association and got his 3 Dan from them then broke away and self-promoted to 8 Dan. I was young and didn't know any better so spent about a decade training there. Later in life when wanting to get back into TSD, I knew a lot more and started to inquire as to his past and got the full story. Well, when I decided to try and join a legit TSD organization, I was screwed. So I just made the switch to WT TKD and am doing that now. So some of us get very guarded when we hear "self-promoted."

 

[skribs]

In all fairness, as regards to how long it took him to attain his 7th degree should not be shady at all. The Kukkiwon itself will allow one skip-dan test in a lifetime so someone could easily knock off a few years on the way to 7th. I just think the self-promotion thing is where it gets shady.

Kukkiwon allows you to skip dan in specific situations. To my knowledge (and some of the other KKW folks can correct me if I'm wrong), it is in one of a couple of cases:

1. You have a dan rank in one of the approved Kwans or Federations, that you can transfer over.
2. You have time-in-grade for the rank you are skipping to (i.e. to skip from 5th to 7th, you would need to have 11 years as 5th degree) and you have no opportunity to promote to the in-between rank during that time.

I'm not aware of a system in Kukkiwon where someone can go from 5th to 7th in 5 or 6 years.

So some of us get very guarded when we hear "self-promoted."

I work in cybersecurity. One of the rules most places have is that the person running compliance checks on systems cannot be the person who is also responsible for bringing the systems into compliance, because then you could just self-certify that they're compliant. Same thing happens with accounting: the bookkeeper and auditor must be different people, otherwise the bookkeeper could be embezzling and nobody would detect it. You also have to be very careful in the business world with hiring family members, because nepotism is a big consideration.

I can't put on my resume "certified cybersecurity wizard" with a note from my Dad. I put on my resume "certified CISSP", because I have been certified by someone else - (ISC)2 - that I am a qualified cybersecurity professional. I can't put on my resume "Doctorate in Psychology" because I haven't earned one. I can't say that I've watched a bunch of Jordan Peterson videos and I've helped my friends with stuff over the last few years, so I'm basically a psychologist at this point. I'm not credentialed in any way to make such claim.

So when you do claim a rank higher than what someone else has given you, it must hold up to scrutiny. And that includes simply the optics of it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

My instructor was one of the original black belts in TKD.

Well, based on the timeline and how the term "Original" is used in the context of TK-D Black Belts, that term is usually reserved for those who were BBs at the start of TKD from other systems having been born in the 1920's to mid 1930's and by your account, your instructor was born in 1940 and would have been too young to have been among those who were part of the 1954 demo later part of the OH Do Kwan.

You may want to read "A Killing Art" by Alex Gillis . On Page 161 is a photo and pictured are Kim Un-yong, Jong Soo Park, Yoon Yeo -bong, Chung Oh and Myung -Soo Son. From the photo of your instructor on the Net it appears to be the same person . Some of the other people pictured are referred to in the book, but Chung Oh is not. Alex Gillis - the Author may know more history of Chung Oh. I have found him responsive to communications. In any event the book is a good read about the early days of TKD.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You may have heard it multiple times, but in the case of my instructor it's actually true.

It may be a matter of semantics. There were many who received direct instruction through General Choi involving Classroom hours and some who spent some private time with him and in his home. Still there were others who travelled extensively with him Few to none with the exception of perhaps some of the 7 he promoted to GM would be what I call "Personal Students" of General Choi. He never spent enough time in one place.

 

[bluepanther]

Kukkiwon allows you to skip dan in specific situations. To my knowledge (and some of the other KKW folks can correct me if I'm wrong), it is in one of a couple of cases:

1. You have a dan rank in one of the approved Kwans or Federations, that you can transfer over.
2. You have time-in-grade for the rank you are skipping to (i.e. to skip from 5th to 7th, you would need to have 11 years as 5th degree) and you have no opportunity to promote to the in-between rank during that time.

I'm not aware of a system in Kukkiwon where someone can go from 5th to 7th in 5 or 6 years.

I work in cybersecurity. One of the rules most places have is that the person running compliance checks on systems cannot be the person who is also responsible for bringing the systems into compliance, because then you could just self-certify that they're compliant. Same thing happens with accounting: the bookkeeper and auditor must be different people, otherwise the bookkeeper could be embezzling and nobody would detect it. You also have to be very careful in the business world with hiring family members, because nepotism is a big consideration.

I can't put on my resume "certified cybersecurity wizard" with a note from my Dad. I put on my resume "certified CISSP", because I have been certified by someone else - (ISC)2 - that I am a qualified cybersecurity professional. I can't put on my resume "Doctorate in Psychology" because I haven't earned one. I can't say that I've watched a bunch of Jordan Peterson videos and I've helped my friends with stuff over the last few years, so I'm basically a psychologist at this point. I'm not credentialed in any way to make such claim.

So when you do claim a rank higher than what someone else has given you, it must hold up to scrutiny. And that includes simply the optics of it.

I am not sure how the skip-dan thing works, just know it is out there.

I think if someone self-promotes to 1 rank higher when opening a school is fine. If that school owner is transparent with prospective students saying they made it to such and such rank in a certain system but decided to strike out on their own and now has created their own niche art. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when someone learns a certain MA then leaves and self-promotes 2 or more levels higher, but still claims to be teaching the same art they initially learned. Even if you have the "time-in-grade" necessary, you still have not been taught by someone. This is fraud. But if it truly is your own unique system then you can set your own number of levels. Why must there be 9 Dan levels? Maybe your art might only have 4 Dan levels then after that you have titles like "Master", "Senior Master", "All Great and Holy Master", whatever without any higher Dan ranking. Maybe at 4 Dan you decide to award a thicker white belt meaning you will forever be a student and that is your highest belt? As long as you aren't claiming to be a 7 Dan in Kukkiwon TKD or a 7 Dan in ITF TKD, etc.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You may have heard it multiple times, but in the case of my instructor it's actually true.

It may be a bad assumption, but I would think if that were true, and if he followed what General Choi taught, and if you follow what he taught their would not be so many large technical differences in what you do and what General Choi taught. Yes, I know that is a lot of "If's"
I watched a few of your videos which provide a remarkable reference for your students, but clearly show that the "Personal Student" experience may have been limited as it was for such noteables as He Il Cho and Jhoon Rhee.

A few of those differences in the few videos I watched include :

The way the following are done: Attention Stance, Bow, Walking Stance Middle Block (Higher than GC Standard) Waliking Stance Low Block, arm position is different,

Following reference again to General Choi Standard,

Also Won Hyo #2 Opponent not directly ahead where lead foot points, #3 is Fixed stance , not L Stance, No High Punch with Side Piercing Kick, Forearm Guarding Block arm position.

 

[skribs]

I am not sure how the skip-dan thing works, just know it is out there.

There's a lot of things about KKW that a lot of people "just know it is out there". This is a criticism of Kukkiwon and their communications, not a criticism of your understanding.

I looked it up, and I guess there is a way to skip time, but that requires approval from someone over you and then a test at Kukkiwon. This provides 2-step verification from someone other than yourself.

I do believe the skip dan I was referring to also exists, where you're the only 4th degree black belt in the bayou and you've been there for 15 years, so you can promote up to 6th without having to stop at 5th.

I think if someone self-promotes to 1 rank higher when opening a school is fine. If that school owner is transparent with prospective students saying they made it to such and such rank in a certain system but decided to strike out on their own and now has created their own niche art. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when someone learns a certain MA then leaves and self-promotes 2 or more levels higher, but still claims to be teaching the same art they initially learned. Even if you have the "time-in-grade" necessary, you still have not been taught by someone. This is fraud. But if it truly is your own unique system then you can set your own number of levels. Why must there be 9 Dan levels? Maybe your art might only have 4 Dan levels then after that you have titles like "Master", "Senior Master", "All Great and Holy Master", whatever without any higher Dan ranking. Maybe at 4 Dan you decide to award a thicker white belt meaning you will forever be a student and that is your highest belt? As long as you aren't claiming to be a 7 Dan in Kukkiwon TKD or a 7 Dan in ITF TKD, etc.

My plan (if I don't find a mentor) is something along the lines of starting myself at 4th degree (which I think I can justify based on a number of factors), and from there starting the clock for 5th degree eligibility. As a 4th degree black belt, I would be starting my school, which presents its own challenges (and opportunities to grow by overcoming them), and I do plan on continuing my training in other martial arts, which would allow for additional growth as well.

Let's say I open my school in 2025. I wouldn't even think about promoting myself to 5th degree until either:

1. It's at least 2029 or 2030, where I would have met a minimum time-in-grade to be considered acceptable.
2. I have at least one student that is a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt, where my being a 4th degree may hold them back.
3. Both of the above.

I don't see much distinction if I were to instantly self-promote to 9th degree grandmaster, or if I were to promote from 3rd to 9th over the course of 6 years. I do see a distinction if I were to promote myself to 4th in 2025 (age 37), 5th in 2029 (age 41), 6th in 2034 (age 46), 7th in 2040 (age 52), 8th in 2047 (age 59), and 9th in 2055 (age 67). That may even be an aggressive schedule.

Personally, I think the biggest reason for me to get rank is for me to be able to allow my students to continue to progress. I chose knowledge over rank when I left a KKW TKD McDojo to focus on learning BJJ and MT. I have no need for rank for any privileges within my own teaching. After 4th degree or 5th degree (minimum requirements to be a Master in most TKD systems), there isn't really any benefit to my legitimacy by ranking up. So at that point the biggest factor for me gaining rank is so that if I get students that high up, I can promote them. And I'm not just thinking of in-house students, but of people like me that might transfer in already at 2nd or 3rd dan, or maybe even higher.

With that said, I also don't know if the rules necessarily apply in that case, either. If I'm willing to self-promote from 4th to 5th dan, do I need to be a 5th dan to promote someone else to 4th? Let me back up a bit. Let's look at a hypothetical timeline:

• 2025: I start my school at 4th degree.
• 2028: A student transfers in with 3rd degree.
• 2029: I take 5th degree. My transfer student is 1 year into 3rd degree at my school.
• 2031: The student gets 4th degree. I am 2 years into 5th degree.
• 2034: I take 6th degree. My transfer student is 3 years into 4th degree.
• 2035: My student gets 5th degree. I am 1 year into 6th degree.
• 2040: My student gets 6th degree and I get 7th degree. (1)
• 2046: My student is eligible for 7th degree. I am 6 years into 7th degree. (2)

(1) Depending on the timing of the 2040 situation, it could be that I'm already in a position where my rank is holding the student back, or I need to promote him to my current rank. For example if my testing schedule is in November and his is in March, then he is eligible 6 months before I am.

(2) In this situation, my rank is definitely holding them back. Is this a case where I promote to my rank, or promote myself and then promote them? Both have their eyebrow-raising factor.

Of course, if I do find a mentor, then all of this is moot.

 

[skribs]

Even if you have the "time-in-grade" necessary, you still have not been taught by someone. This is fraud.

I wouldn't necessarily say so. Most school owners aren't necessarily taught by someone. If they are, it's very little and far between. However, they are usually tested by someone or promoted through other means.

For example, my Taekwondo Masters would go to Korea to test at Kukkiwon. Even though they weren't really receiving much in the way of training from anyone above them. My BJJ Professor still gets his promotions from his Professor, even though he isn't still training directly under him.

In fact, I feel my biggest growth in Taekwondo is going to come when I open my own school and I am able to play around with things, instead of being required to do the rigid curriculum structure of what my Master assigned. When I went to a new school and learned new punch defenses, the majority of them were things I already knew or things I had done very similar of. There were more techniques that I thought were bullshido than I thought were new, good information. I feel I'd grow much better being able to play around with techniques with my upper belts than I will just learning someone else's "Punch Defense #1-5."

 

[bluepanther]

(1) Depending on the timing of the 2040 situation, it could be that I'm already in a position where my rank is holding the student back, or I need to promote him to my current rank. For example if my testing schedule is in November and his is in March, then he is eligible 6 months before I am.

(2) In this situation, my rank is definitely holding them back. Is this a case where I promote to my rank, or promote myself and then promote them? Both have their eyebrow-raising factor.

You could take no rank as creator of your system such as Funakoshi did and just promote people to your standards without yourself being held to any type of rank. You would just be the Grandmaster, maybe wear that double thick white belt and be "outside" the system? You would still continue to learn and refine your art, but you would never have to worry about your own rank.

 

[skribs]

You could take no rank as creator of your system such as Funakoshi did and just promote people to your standards without yourself being held to any type of rank. You would just be the Grandmaster, maybe wear that double thick white belt and be "outside" the system? You would still continue to learn and refine your art, but you would never have to worry about your own rank.

That is an option. I'm not going to go with it. Not for any logical argument, but just because I don't want to.

 

[BaehrTKD]

If someone cannot back up the claims they make, then those claims should be assumed to be false. If you make a claim, you should be capable of backing it up.

I take people at their word, so I don't assume everyone is lying to me when they tell me something.

Some claims are impossible to back up because I don't have a time machine.

Any reasonable person would look at the evidence and conclude "yeah he's telling the truth, it all fits together".

The thing is, had you not bragged about these credentials, or had you only bragged about things you can prove (or even remember), then we wouldn't have an issue.

I didn't brag about any credentials. People asked and I answered.

It goes back to what I said about your jumping rank. If you would have progressed at least at the minimum allowed pace (or what you would call "the average student"), then I personally wouldn't question the validity of it. But you posted the dates. You made that information available to anyone who is capable of doing the math.

Because I have nothing to hide. I already explained that the most recent Dans were expedited specifically because the first several were way too long in coming. I decided to follow Chung Oh's system of Dans (the time scale) rather than the ITF one. That's why things are a bit lob sided.

Had you been accelerated by someone who is 8th or 9th dan, I'd get it. Had you self-promoted at a slower pace, I'd also get it. I don't get self-promoting at an accelerated pace. It seems to be more about ego and pride than achievement.

You keep calling it an accelerated pace but by Chung Oh's standards, it's actually slightly behind their pace. Below the pace everyone before and after me has followed.

Once again... for someone who got black belt in 2003...

ITF: 2nd (2005), 3rd (2008), 4th (2012), 5th (2017), 6th (2023), 7th(2030)
Chung Oh: 2nd(2006), 3rd(2009), 4th (2012), 5th(2015), 6th(2018), 7th(2021)

 

[BaehrTKD]

You could take no rank as creator of your system such as Funakoshi did and just promote people to your standards without yourself being held to any type of rank. You would just be the Grandmaster, maybe wear that double thick white belt and be "outside" the system? You would still continue to learn and refine your art, but you would never have to worry about your own rank.

If you were to create your own martial arts system, and it caught on and you had lots of followers, it's inevitable that sooner or later your students will assign you the highest possible rank in your own martial art, even if you didn't do it yourself.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Well, based on the timeline and how the term "Original" is used in the context of TK-D Black Belts, that term is usually reserved for those who were BBs at the start of TKD from other systems having been born in the 1920's to mid 1930's and by your account, your instructor was born in 1940 and would have been too young to have been among those who were part of the 1954 demo later part of the OH Do Kwan.

You may want to read "A Killing Art" by Alex Gillis . On Page 161 is a photo and pictured are Kim Un-yong, Jong Soo Park, Yoon Yeo -bong, Chung Oh and Myung -Soo Son. From the photo of your instructor on the Net it appears to be the same person . Some of the other people pictured are referred to in the book, but Chung Oh is not. Alex Gillis - the Author may know more history of Chung Oh. I have found him responsive to communications. In any event the book is a good read about the early days of TKD.

Yeah we're using different definitions of the word "original". I see where the confusion is coming now.

You're using the word original to mean: "the group of black belts who founded Taekwondo". The Mt. Rushmore of TKD.

I'm using the word original to mean: "the first batch of new students that were taught once Taekwondo had been established".

In other words, once the "founding fathers" (as I'll call them) had created everything they wanted to create, signed, sealed, and packaged it, and then began teaching their newly created art to the very first white belts, the students they began teaching included my instructor.

 

[BaehrTKD]

It may be a bad assumption, but I would think if that were true, and if he followed what General Choi taught, and if you follow what he taught their would not be so many large technical differences in what you do and what General Choi taught. Yes, I know that is a lot of "If's"
I watched a few of your videos which provide a remarkable reference for your students, but clearly show that the "Personal Student" experience may have been limited as it was for such noteables as He Il Cho and Jhoon Rhee.

A few of those differences in the few videos I watched include :

The way the following are done: Attention Stance, Bow, Walking Stance Middle Block (Higher than GC Standard) Waliking Stance Low Block, arm position is different,

Following reference again to General Choi Standard,

Also Won Hyo #2 Opponent not directly ahead where lead foot points, #3 is Fixed stance , not L Stance, No High Punch with Side Piercing Kick, Forearm Guarding Block arm position.

That's why I'm saying that our style is probably the oldest Taekwondo style that still exists, and I've never seen anyone else who does it the way we learned it.

It's unlikely that Chung Oh made up his own system. He would have had to "tow the line" to gain rank and be able to open a school at all. This is how he was taught. You'll find every former Chung Oh's student does it the same way, proving that it's not by accident. It's not just me doing it this way.

High level instructors are known for putting their personal stamp/philosophy on things. Minor alterations here or there, but nobody ever changes everything.

What you call fixed stance, we call long L-stance. We never punch in the same direction we are doing side kick. In Won Hyo, the opponent is considered to be directly in front of us. What you call guarding block we would probably call high guarding block. I've noticed all of these things over the years as well.

 

[BaehrTKD]

I wouldn't necessarily say so. Most school owners aren't necessarily taught by someone. If they are, it's very little and far between. However, they are usually tested by someone or promoted through other means.

For example, my Taekwondo Masters would go to Korea to test at Kukkiwon. Even though they weren't really receiving much in the way of training from anyone above them. My BJJ Professor still gets his promotions from his Professor, even though he isn't still training directly under him.

In fact, I feel my biggest growth in Taekwondo is going to come when I open my own school and I am able to play around with things, instead of being required to do the rigid curriculum structure of what my Master assigned. When I went to a new school and learned new punch defenses, the majority of them were things I already knew or things I had done very similar of. There were more techniques that I thought were bullshido than I thought were new, good information. I feel I'd grow much better being able to play around with techniques with my upper belts than I will just learning someone else's "Punch Defense #1-5."

I felt exactly the same way in 2011. I've learned a great deal since leaving Chung Oh's School by having exposure to other instructors and learning new material since then that Chung Oh didn't teach.

I've taken the opportunity to ADD some things to my curriculum that I thought were missing. Not my own made-up stuff, but proven Taekwondo and Hapkido techniques being taught at other schools.

While we have various fundamental sets that students are expected to know, we always had "free practice" sessions as well where students could experiment and develop their own techniques.

Being able to PERSONALIZE what you teach and emphasize what you feel is most important, is a valuable part of being an instructor.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Everyone wants to believe that they learned from the greatest TKD instructor. I get it. However, few people can claim what I can.

Sure they can. Anyone can.

My instructor was Korean-born and raised.

So was mine. He's been here since 1969. Doesn't mean anything, really. MA knowledge isn't genetic.

My instructor was one of the original black belts in TKD.

So you say, but without anything other than your unsupported words. But even if true, really doesn't matter.

3rd dan. (Assistant 3rd was considered to be 3rd at Chung Oh's School.)

It's a nonsensical rank added to increase revenue.

Again, you're beginning to fudge things in an attempt to discredit me. I get it. I knew that's where this thread was going all along, and it's why I normally don't bother with forums. I'm simply not going to get into rank-based arguments because I know that people are jealous and resentful of where I'm at. People are always trying to discredit and defame others, and I won't be part of it.

Why would I be jealous?

By all means ask them. I already told you what happened, and it's the truth. I told them I was planning to open my own school to teach people privately on the side (since all of their other branch instructors were being paid to teach). I was teaching for free at their Kitchener main school. They told me not to open my own school. We negotiated for a bit back and forth, and couldn't reach any agreement, so they told me I couldn't train there if I was going to run my own school. That's EXACTLY what happened and there's only TWO people who were privy to those discussions: Inn and myself. Inn has since died.

So the other side of the story will never be known.

Promoted over a period of 12 years.

You misspelled "self-promoted". Hope this helps.

I'm confused. Are you being critical of them for doing so or just being critical of me for testing myself up in level since leaving Chung Oh's School (in the absence of other instructors in my area doing ITF-style TKD)?

You didn't "test [yourself]". You just promoted yourself. Which I'm fine with. That's how the first head of pretty much every MA organization got their rank. Because, by definition, there is nobody higher than them to promote them.
People who know how rank in the TKD world works already know you're self-promoted. Because you haven't been around long enough to earn a 7th Dan the usual way.
I just think it's silly to try to mask the facts with silliness about "testing yourself". It's disingenuous.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Good job we don't do fraud busting here then. And we will just have to take him at his word

When did I call him a fraud? I called him self-promoted, which is a fact. I also said I'm not bothered by self-promotion. I'm bothered by the lengths people go to in an attempt to mask the fact.

In all fairness, as regards to how long it took him to attain his 7th degree should not be shady at all. The Kukkiwon itself will allow one skip-dan test in a lifetime so someone could easily knock off a few years on the way to 7th. I just think the self-promotion thing is where it gets shady.

The KKW skip dan requirements do not shorten time in rank. It's an option available to people who are well past the time in grade standard but have not tested. So if a 2nd Dan holder wants to skip 3rd and go to 4th, they will need to have been a 2nd Dan a minimum of 5 years. That is by no means the only requirement for the skip dan test. That's a topic for another thread. In the context of this thread, the important factoid is that it does not shorten the time in rank requirements.
Many (if not most) systems also have a rule that allows promotion by fiat. Where basically the head of the system says "you're X rank now". Ours does, but the only time I have ever seen it used was posthumously.

My old Tang Soo Do instructor did this sort of thing. He was a member of the World Tang Soo Do Association and got his 3 Dan from them then broke away and self-promoted to 8 Dan. I was young and didn't know any better so spent about a decade training there. Later in life when wanting to get back into TSD, I knew a lot more and started to inquire as to his past and got the full story. Well, when I decided to try and join a legit TSD organization, I was screwed. So I just made the switch to WT TKD and am doing that now. So some of us get very guarded when we hear "self-promoted."

GM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan. TSD, as it exists today, is a branch of the MDK. GM Hwang self-promoted.
The problem isn't one of self-promotion, it's simply that one organization doesn't want to recognize credentials from another. Had your instructor earned his 8th Dan through the WTSDA and then broke off, the organization you tried to join would still not have recognized your rank.
And just FYI, there is no such thing as WT TKD. World Tae Kwon Do is a sports governing body. They have no schools, they issue no rank, and they have no curriculum. You're probably training in Kukkiwon TKD. You can tell pretty easy by looking at your Dan certificates. Note that they're not signed by anybody at WT. They're signed (well, stamped, I doubt the person ever actually sees them) by the President of the Kukkiwon. I've got a few things signed by the President of WTF, but they're "service to the art" awards, not rank.

 

[bluepanther]

GM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan. TSD, as it exists today, is a branch of the MDK. GM Hwang self-promoted.
The problem isn't one of self-promotion, it's simply that one organization doesn't want to recognize credentials from another. Had your instructor earned his 8th Dan through the WTSDA and then broke off, the organization you tried to join would still not have recognized your rank.
And just FYI, there is no such thing as WT TKD. World Tae Kwon Do is a sports governing body. They have no schools, they issue no rank, and they have no curriculum. You're probably training in Kukkiwon TKD. You can tell pretty easy by looking at your Dan certificates. Note that they're not signed by anybody at WT. They're signed (well, stamped, I doubt the person ever actually sees them) by the President of the Kukkiwon. I've got a few things signed by the President of WTF, but they're "service to the art" awards, not rank.

Just curious, what rank did Hwang Kee promote himself to? Yes, I am thinking of Kukkiwon TKD. I used the WT to differentiate from ITF. WTF changed its name to WT as to not be confused with the shortened notation of "what the f^ck."

 

[bluepanther]

So was mine. He's been here since 1969. Doesn't mean anything, really. MA knowledge isn't genetic.

Nothing like being shouted commands in Korean from a genuine Korean.