Limits on sharing information

[Floating Egg]

And sometimes, possibly even worse.

I guess this is where awareness, even in the dojo, comes into play.

As far as you and I are concerned, yes. Or do you think we know better than him?

No, but I think it means that we can and should question him. I believe he advocates skepticism.

Speak for yourself.

Ha, ha. The few, the proud.

Making the best of the situation and training your a** off I suggest. It's what people have been doing so far.

It's almost necessary to create a vacuum in which we can train without all of the antagonism, politics, and negativity that seems to pervade every organization.

Let's say you're doing a musha dori or related technique. Most of the time, what you're doing is training to understand the basic principles of what is required to make the move work - breaking the balance, moving your feet, twisting your hips, bending your knees etc etc. This means that all such motions are overdone in order to teach them to your body, but that is not necessarily the way it will look like when you've gained enough proficiency. Same thing with the step-through punch; we start out at a distance in order to have time to learn how to shift the weight and when to put the foot down and so forth. Once you have all your hip/spine twisting and all the other goodies in place, you don't need to exaggerate the movement as much in order to hit with all of your bodyweight.

Nice explanation.

No, but there isn't very much I can do about it either.

And yet we discuss it. Go figure.

Indeed there is.

...

See above. It's been said time and again that what Hatsumi sensei is teaching isn't in any way "finished" technically speaking. By the time you delve deeper into the abstract things he focuses on, you should already know a substantial part of the repertoire of throws, chokes, locks and so forth - otherwise you won't have any experience with which to elaborate on what he's been showing and making it work for YOU (this, of course, applies mainly to people of fifth dan and up - lesser mortals like myself are better off to just shut up and train for the time being).

If only we started training when we were seven.

Bingo. What do you think he means when he says we have to "steal" knowledge?

You have a point.

I'm probably not the best person to comment on this, as I have a real problem with authorities who think they have to point out themselves as such...

And the same goes for pointing out others? I guess I'm refering to the cult of personality.

That if you are uncertain about Hatsumi sensei's ability to fend for himself, go to Japan and have at him.

That would be a boastful enterprise indeed. I wasn't trying to illustrate my doubt of his abilities, but I also have no frame of reference when discussing combat of a form that no longer exists, hence the battlefield analogy.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I guess this is where awareness, even in the dojo, comes into play.

I'd say the most important thing is to train with everyone at least once. It's the only way to tell if your current instructor sucks.

No, but I think it means that we can and should question him. I believe he advocates skepticism.

Absolutely, but then again, you cannot be totally sure about what it is he wants to point out whenever he demonstrates something.

It's almost necessary to create a vacuum in which we can train without all of the antagonism, politics, and negativity that seems to pervade every organization.

Sometimes I think we would be better off if everyone could agree on a certain level of (hard) contact. Much would be won if we could all just decide from the beginning to train hard, that would for instance solve the issue of people who seem to think "if you hit me hard I'll hit you harder".

If only we started training when we were seven.

I was about nine, does that count? Truth be told, it hasn't helped much.

And the same goes for poing out others? I'm guess I'm refering to the cult of personality.

There's one thing all the people within the Bujinkan I admire have in common - they lead by example.

That would be a boastful enterprise indeed. I wasn't trying to illustrate my doubt of his abilities, but I also have no frame of reference when discussing combat of a form that no longer exists, hence the battlefield analogy.

Read somewhere that someone once asked Someya sensei how one could be sure that cutting through a rolled tatami mat was equivalent to cutting through a human neck.
His response was "I have no reason to doubt that information".

 

[Floating Egg]

Read somewhere that someone once asked Someya sensei how one could be sure that cutting through a rolled tatami mat was equivalent to cutting through a human neck.
His response was "I have no reason to doubt that information".

Touché. I think you've done a good job of answering all of questions.

 

[Shogun]

I can show you kenjutsu videos for sale by people like Steven Hayes who just do not seem to even know how to cut with one.

I'm probably gonna get eaten for this, but IMO the way i've seen (most) of the Bujinkan guys handle Kenjutsu is a joke. I know there are really good people out there (thats what I here) but the advancement in the art is way to fast. i've seen classes conducted in and out of the schools I attend where they are seemingly learning kamae and cut patterns within a few short classes! this is impossible. I first delved into Kenjutsu from my Aiki no Michi teacher (reverend K. Barrish). I spent about 20, 2 hour classes perfecting the basic grip, and I still have work to do. the idea of "moving on" after only a few classes in the subject makes it so it seems pointless to introduce it in the first place. maybe its because there is so much to cover. maybe not. (we only have 9 basic cuts, and a few kata in Aiki).
This is just my opinion. I have not seen every class or teacher (far from) so I dont know how everyone does it, this is based on what I've seen.

 

[Don Roley]

I'm probably gonna get eaten for this, but IMO the way i've seen (most) of the Bujinkan guys handle Kenjutsu is a joke.

No argument here!

The problem is that many people skipped the learning phase of sword before moving into teaching it. Luke is good with a sword, good at a lot of things. What he did not learn over a period of time in progresive steps he does not teach!

It is not just swords or "Tamayoke" Molitor. You talk about things like the san shin or Gyokko ryu, etc and the result is the same. People's approach to this art is hit and miss in the way they learned things. People with terrible san shin are advertising seminars in Koto ryu, etc.

So, considering the fact that perhaps the best thing to improve kenjutsu in the Bujinkan is to get people to go to instructors like Tamayoke Molitor, how is anything I post here on kenjutsu, etc going to help people. As far as I am concerned, if you have not gone through the type of stuff that he has and teaches, you should just put aside your bokken until you can. Thats it, just stop training and teaching kenjutsu until you get real instruction from a teacher of a claiber like Tamayoke.

Everything I could post here would just be a distraction.

 

[Don Roley]

Just got off the phone with someone and thought of this thread. I would like to toss something out for discussion.

The guy I talked to was saying that I should put out more good information to counter the bad stuff that is so common out there. In particular, we were carping about the 'ninja as oppressed religious minority' story that the latest DVD seems to push.

But instead of putting stuff out there for free, I should do something proffesionally.

People do tend to take stuff they pay for more seriously than things they can get for free. And I think that people should not be paying much attention to a lot of stuff they get on the internet anyways. This guys point was that if I charged something for what I write, people would take it more seriously and I might be better able to get the good stuff out there.

I don't know. What do you guys think? I am interested less in the money (pennies probably) than in the idea of being able to write something deep and meaningfull and then controlling who I sold it to so as to not have to worry about Koga ryu frauds using the information later on.

There are a lot of options. I could easily use the stuff on my computer to come out with some pretty proffesional materials on an as needed basis. And that would just be by myself. Working with others I could do more.

So, again, what do you guys think?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Don,

I think that is a great idea! Your forte so to speak is in the
history area, so you should write a book! If you need any
ideas let me know I just finished writing my first book as
well and it is a big project when done right! Do not do it
if you are not whole heartedly behind it. That would be
my biggest advice. Hopefully you will write something, I
would love to read it.

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Kizaru]

The guy I talked to was saying that I should put out more good information ....But instead of putting stuff out there for free, I should do something proffesionally.?

Nothing wrong with putting out good information.

I don't know. What do you guys think? I am interested less in the money (pennies probably) than in the idea of being able to write something deep and meaningfull and then controlling who I sold it to so as to not have to worry about Koga ryu frauds using the information later on.

Why control who you sell it to? Why not just do some good work and make it available for sale to everyone?

 

[Don Roley]

Why control who you sell it to? Why not just do some good work and make it available for sale to everyone?

Because I am a little tired of seeing fruads knowingly twist what I write to make themselves look good and attack the Bujinkan. If I had a dime for every time some fraud said, 'but even Don Roley said...' followed by a very liberal interpetation of what I said I could retire rich right now.

You think I am being silly about just how much some guys will twist words and use them to attack others? One word- SOJOBOW!

Among other ideas, I have been thinking that if I came out with the huge work on ninjutsu history some people have been encouraging me to write I could do it up on the computer and print out copies for individuals. Since profit is not a motive, I could do it for less than most people could photo- copy it and sell it at that price. So if I said I would only sell it to people who were reccomended by prior buyers to me, I could keep a matter of control over who gets it. It would be less for people to get it from me than to photocopy it if I thought they were honorable.

Then I could do a work that assumes no prior knowledge about Japanese history and build up from there with as complete a knowledge as I could. I could talk about all aspects without fear of a Sojobow, a Carlos Febres or a Steve McGovern trying to copy the story or use it to attack the Bujinkan.

 

[Deaf]

Don,

I can understand your hestitation in regards to sharing information and I think your idea of publishing your work to only a selected individuals is a good one.

It is actually a bit sad that things have come to be this way though. But if my little bit of history is correct... many of the arts within the Bujinkan were "closed" to only those selected to train within the ryuha. So in essence, I guess you could say we are going back to our roots!

If you do decide to publish some of you work, please let me know since I am and will definitely be interested.

~Deaf~

 

[Satt]

Well, Don, just let us know when we can put in our pre-orders. artyon:

 

[heretic888]

So, again, what do you guys think?

Don,

I, for one, would be very interested in such a project.

Laterz.

 

[Floating Egg]

I'm interested.

 

[Kreth]

I find it interesting that given Don's stand, none of the 4 of you who have expressed interest have a real name listed in your profiles...:idunno:

 

[Deaf]

Actually, I never thought of filling out my profile to be honest. Just signed up and went along etc. However I do not have anything to hide if that is what is being assumed.

Michael Goddard
Dayton Ohio

aka

Deaf

(Edit --- Actually I did fill out my profile however what I didn't realize is that there are two places to place your name within the profile. The first one being private and the second one being public display. An honest mistake which I didn't realize)

 

[Kreth]

Deaf, I knew who you were from other forums, and I know who heretic is as well. It just seemed amusing to me giving Don's stance on the subject.

 

[stephen]

Don,

Sounds like a great idea. For the controlling the sales, just sell it in Japan. If you're the sort of person who 'can't go' then you can get it from someone you train with who does. Somewhere done the line someone will have a connection to Japan if they are committed.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Just got off the phone with someone and thought of this thread. I would like to toss something out for discussion.

The guy I talked to was saying that I should put out more good information to counter the bad stuff that is so common out there. In particular, we were carping about the 'ninja as oppressed religious minority' story that the latest DVD seems to push.

But instead of putting stuff out there for free, I should do something proffesionally.

People do tend to take stuff they pay for more seriously than things they can get for free. And I think that people should not be paying much attention to a lot of stuff they get on the internet anyways. This guys point was that if I charged something for what I write, people would take it more seriously and I might be better able to get the good stuff out there.

I don't know. What do you guys think? I am interested less in the money (pennies probably) than in the idea of being able to write something deep and meaningfull and then controlling who I sold it to so as to not have to worry about Koga ryu frauds using the information later on.

There are a lot of options. I could easily use the stuff on my computer to come out with some pretty proffesional materials on an as needed basis. And that would just be by myself. Working with others I could do more.

So, again, what do you guys think?

There will ALWAYS be people out there who will abuse ANYTHING. If you do the work, and I am including the years necessary to have aquired the expertise to do so, than you deserve to be payed for it. There is enough out there via books and DVD for the aspiring fraud to lead the gullible with, anyway. Just throw in some hints on how to find an authentic teacher so that those who do read it will know what to be wary of. Believe me, limiting it in distribution will NOT keep it out of the wrong hands in the long run - so why not make some well earned money?

 

[Kizaru]

There will ALWAYS be people out there who will abuse ANYTHING. ..Just throw in some hints on how to find an authentic teacher..... Believe me, limiting it in distribution will NOT keep it out of the wrong hands in the long run - so why not make some well earned money?

Some really excellent points! Thank you for your input!!!

 

[Floating Egg]

I find it interesting that given Don's stand, none of the 4 of you who have expressed interest have a real name listed in your profiles...

There's something to be said for anonymity on the Internet. If Don implements a policy requiring validation of Bujinkan membership to gain access to his materials, I will share my personal information.