Likelyhood of a trained attacker

[kidswarrior]

Well, lots of good ideas already, but I'll just add my limited perspective. Seems to me in my geographical area (L.A. sprawl) there are two types of potential attackers:

1) The Road/'roid rage bully, who thinks his BJJ or MMA or TMA or Boxing studio time+Adrenaline=Overwhelming attack. And he may be right if I'm not ready for him to come out fast and furious (assuming I'm dumb enough to let my ego dictate that I stop the car/face off in the first place!).

2) The street/prison Veterano who in his twenties has more experience surviving dangerous situations than I ever hope to. This guy lives by his wits, plays dirty, and has done this many times before (as many fellow posters have said here).

In either case, I try to check my ego first. Lots of rage goes away if I don't respond in kind. If violence is unavoidable, need to control my adrenaline dump in order to maintain calm and confidence. Doing those things give me a good chance (given my training and background--also said by many here)--but no one wins every fight (any undefeated pro fighters?), and one loss on the street can mean I lose my life and my wife is left hurting financially, or I'm maimed or disabled. Even a win can mean litigation or even prosecution. And all this 'winning' is assuming I'm prepared for him and his friends (BIG 'if'), and no weapons pop out (second BIG 'if').

Kinda rambled here, but this is not meant to 'talk' over anyone else's post, but to be anecdotal from my own experience.

~ kidswarrior

 

[kidswarrior]

Hello, Remember (bad guys) they are not stupid to go against someone who they feel has an advantage over them. They will always fight the weak and innocent, Or use a knife,gun,club or anything to give them an edge.

2. Most street punks...know very well what works on the streets. Experience is the BEST training. Plus they have done it more than once, where you...do not have the mental skills (adrenaline response) to prepare quickly. Well most of us do not have the proper training for the REAL WORLD...alone againist the bad guys, on the streets somewhere?

3. Expect the worst, anything goes style of fighting,people joining in from the sides,back, expect stones to be thrown at you.

4.BE smart...alway try to escape and get out of there as FAST as you can....only a fool stays around. Also revenge should be expected later on from the attacker.....WATCH YOUR Back!

5.Our best weapons are: Awareness,Humbleness, and our legs (run)

LOL, we were typing the same things at the same time :lol:

 

[grydth]

I could truthfully say I faced assailants on the street several times and won every time. But in retrospect, I definitely think it was because I was attacked by stupid and unskilled clods. There wasn't a great, or even good, fighter in the bunch.

I'm very happy with this situation - let the skilled muggers stay with you guys!:uhyeah:

 

[still learning]

I could truthfully say I faced assailants on the street several times and won every time. But in retrospect, I definitely think it was because I was attacked by stupid and unskilled clods. There wasn't a great, or even good, fighter in the bunch.

I'm very happy with this situation - let the skilled muggers stay with you guys!:uhyeah:

Hello, This is good you survive your last couple of confrontations...it is always the last one (shot,stab,hit by a club)....or get killed by a very train fighter..that will make you realize...the odds are getting smaller everytime you get into a fight.

Keep your EGO in check..practice awareness, become more humble...NO more fights means...your life will be in less danger.

Like speeding on the road...many times you survive...BUT a very small mistake is all it takes to CRASH. It takes only one more time....each one brings you closer to end your world.

Learn to run....learn to hide....learn to live a longer life....Keep your pride inside the body. A hand shake works better than a fist in most instances...

A good handshake can be turn into a wrist lock....oops...I mean...a friendly end to a seriouly situtions.........Shake hands ...big SMILE...will then make thing end peacefully ...............Aloha

PS: If no choice..go for the destroy methods! ..when done..shake his hand?
..

 

[grydth]

This is excellent advice, which everyone from white belt to 10th dan should read.... regularly.

The rest of you can't count on getting the Who Isn't Who of attackers that I drew. Really, they were all in the wrong line of work... and with bad luck, even one of them can kill you.

 

[MJS]

I think it will be unlikely to meet someone who has trained well in any traditional MA, the reason being that real training takes discipline and hard work, and your average street thug isn't interested in either.

That being said, the real problem is, as MJS and Shotgun Buddha pointed out, facing someone with experience in fights. Taking both together, it means you are not likely to be attacked in a way you are used to seeing other students of your art use in sparring, but you are likely to face someone with experience in dirty, physical techniques that work.

Great point!!! Going on that, this is why, IMO, its a good idea to run scenario drills, and train against the more common street attacks. As you said, the guy on the street is going to be using dirty tactics.

 

[exile]

I think it's wise to have a backup plan as well. No matter how good your physical skills are, you may find that the physical space, or numbers, are working against you. And your opponent may have a weapon—knife, broken bottle, baseball bat... all kinds of stuff besides a firearm.

So I think it's worth seriously considering two further additions to your combat repertoire:

(i) become proficient with, and carry, throwing weapons. No one is expecting to find themselves sucking on the business end of a fast moving throwing star. And the second or third one, fired from six or fewer feet away, will be even less expected...

(ii) follow up (i) with someting effective, that will persuade your attacker to lie face down, nose on the ground, feet two shoulder lengths apart with his hands in his pockets. It's hard to suddenly spring back to the attack from that position. A Wagner/Böker tactical folder in the immediate aftermath of (i) is probably an offer even your toughest would-be assailant can't refuse.

Who in his or her right mind would want to have to be in that situation? But you may have no choice. That's the horrible thing about violence: it forces you to do very upleasant things to someone you have—at the beginning, at least—no wish to hurt. But if you're going to defend yourself—and you deserve to be defended, even if you have to do it yourself—you might as well do it so the vermin who was planning to attack you has no chance at all...

 

[Hand Sword]

I think it's pretty likely. At least more so now, than in the past. There's a wave, from my experience, lately of the "machos". They seem to be the trouble makers, and have some training Boxing and MMA stuff. Sadly, there are "sith" out there, among us. We of the jedi order must train hard and remain diligent!

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Anybody ever see "Taxi Driver" with Robert DeNiro? :uhyeah:

While there may be some who actually physically train, there are far more who mentally train - and they're just as dangerous.

People who are making a life of crime spend time thinking things through - they have a plan, they have a backup plan, they talk about victimization, effective control of a victim, practice moves, etcetera.

So true - you make a very pertinent point. Truth is, what you wrote of is really the greatest threat to any martial artist (mixed or traditional). Heck, I wrote somewhere in another thread how, when I was 19 and training nearly every day in TKD, Boxing and Judo (university - inexpensive classes) a "crazy" with a small pocketknife completely got the drop on me and held my tie and collar with one hand, kife to my throat in the other while using his knee as leverage. He literally jumped over the desk at work which I was sitting at and grabbed me, held me, than stole a bunch of useless (to him, at least) sales slips from the cash box. The point was, he chose the moment of attack, he acted without hesitation and with complete focus and ruthlessness (something most MA's, as civilized human beings are conditioned against). I'm sure he'd done it or similiar before - while I, a dedicated MA'er, had not faced such an assault before. Given the dynamics of that situation, any non-cooperation on my part would have, IMO, been suicidal.

 

[Last Fearner]

Honestly what do you guys think the likely hood is of being attacked in the street by some one trained in the arts?

Speaking more to this original question than to what to watch out for, and how to handle it, I would say it is getting to be more and more likely that an encounter in the street will be with someone who has had some formal training. I am not sure exactly what you mean by the "arts," but my mind goes directly to the well known Asian variations of "Martial Art." Although boxing is a way to fight with your hands, most every kid gets some amount of this taught to them by their dad, an older brother, or a gym teacher.

As some have said, it is becoming more widespread that Martial Art training is common place, not only among average people, but among criminals and gang members. There is the issue of quality of training, long term dedication, and formal instruction as opposed to back yard experimentation and street brawls among gang members. Either way, what it boils down to is the amount of real-life experience the attacker has, and how committed they are to hurting you. Your own real-life experience might open your eyes a bit, but if your instructor is good at "challenging" you in a realistic way, and if you have advance technical abilities, you will stand a better chance of survival.

Training is the key. I don't recommend students go out and get in street fights to gain experience, but somewhere in their chain of instruction (either their instructor, or their instructor's instructor) needs to have some real world experience, and be able to pass that on to you. It won't be exactly the same as what a real fight is like, but if your instructor makes it close enough, your advanced skill will likely prevail.

Of course, there are the misguided masses of so-called "Martial Artists" who spend years studying to be good fighters, but are lacking in moral character, honesty, and integrity. The contradiction is that a "good Martial Artist" would never attack another person unprovoked - - so you would have nothing to worry about from a more advanced, trained fighter. Unfortunately, these are not truly "Martial Artists," so their willingness to do you bodily harm would go unchecked.

For me, the more exact answer to the question of how "likely" it is that I would be attacked by a trained Martial Artists, comes down to how likely I would be attacked at all. What are the chances that I am going to be bitten by a shark while swimming in the Pacific Ocean? Well, since I live in Michigan, and even if I were to visit the west coast, you would not find me swimming in the ocean, thus I am not very likely to be the victim of a shark attack.

How likely is it that I would be mugged in a dark alley and robbed of the thousands of dollars worth of cash hanging out of my pockets. Not likely, because I don't make a habit of walking down dark alleys, especially not while carrying large amounts of cash! I guess it is like others have said already, avoid fights, control your ego, defuse situations, avoid bad environments, and don't look like a potential victim. Then the percentage of chances that you will be attacked at all goes way down.

Remember (bad guys) they are not stupid to go against someone who they feel has an advantage over them. They will always fight the weak and innocent,

Here are some fabricated statistics that I just made up:

10% of attackers will have absolutely no training.
50% of attackers will be trained in something, but not trained very well.
30% of attackers will be very skilled in street fighting.
10% of attackers will be highly trained in "Martial Combat" but lack character.

Of the above groups, 100% of them are dangerous, and become more so the more you underestimate them.

The likely-hood of you ever encountering any of them in a fight will depend greatly on you - - about 99%!

That is my opinion, and wild guess - lol

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Stret Thugs train in their own ways, some even do stuff like Kickboxing,BJJ, and MMA.

I lived in a shady hood when I was younger, and everyone I knew either had a little MA and we all sparred or " Play fought", on top of that, unfortunatly we fought alot.

All the nice reasons to be in a Martial art aside, the reason for a fighting art is just that, fighting. That does not mean go out and look for it, but you should train for it.

To many MAs can discuss technique, tradition and spout off a bunch of words in a foreghn language but are missing the most important coarse of study, the study of violence.

Read the Police blotter, get your hands on SD accounts, watch Prison docs (because that's where the guys you need to fear really learn to get nasty) tape them and slow mo the assults you see, and then run the scenario at the Dojo.

Read guys like Payton Quinn, Marc McYoung, David Grossman, not even the seasoned fighter will agree with everything in their books, but they'll agree with more than they disagree with.

I also feel books by Military combat vets can be helpfull for developing combat mindset. Whether it's in a Rice Paddy in S.E. Asia, or in your living room, a fight for life and limb is War. Dead is dead, if its done to you by someone else, you are a combat casualty.

If you have the tendacy to freeze up or be shocked in the face of violence, then you need to work the mental game hard.
Desensatize yourself, find the most brutal real films of assults you can and watch them till it has no effect on you.

Have your Dojo mates insult and push your buttons in special training sessions, use strobe lights, anything to make it as chaotic as hell, because it can be chaotic as Hell.

Our Military, untill the last few years, was largely un tested in Combat, but the training they give them sure worked, as Iraq was one of the quickest Invasions in History, so exp. is alot, but not everything.

Good, honest, tough training can win the day

 

[exile]

Good, honest, tough training can win the day

I agree with everything in this post, but especially with this last sentence. The key is training. The techs are there, and are meant to be applied under extreme conditions of danger and adrenal shock, but only training can make them usable—and then, if all has been done right, they're very usable.

One thing to remember: the street-trained violent assailant doesn't expect, and probably isn't ready for, a trained, equally violent and pitiless response from a combat-wise defender. That's (y)our advantage. It's also a key to our best shot at coming away unharmed: drive the advantage of surpise into the ground. Counterattack and end the conflict quickly and without mercy. I hate it, but there are people who need us and depend on us...

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

SPEED+SURPRISE+VIOLENCE OF ACTION=CHAOS
CHAOS=Victory for the one who causes it.

I have heard this axiom from many in the bizz of taking out bad people.
It is a mantra for many CT and LEO teams. Sometimes the wording is different (Attack into them with Extreme Aggression- Andy McNabb, 22SAS, Leader of patrol Bravo 2-0)

An uncle, who has nothing to do with the Military, but was a wild SOB in his youth, said the same thing to me as a youngster. " Hit them in mid sentence, and keep hitting them till they go limp."
It worked a good deal.

Even the badest of the bad are screwed if they are viciously attacked, right off the bat.
Mamby pamaby laws aside, when you know your being set up or threatend ATTACK!,full on, no quarter, Throat, eyes, knee, whatever, hit it and keep the pressure on the enemy.

If your attacked, defending is a death mindset, you attack him back, the old charge the ambush rule.
So many see Jujutsu as a defensive art. Not as I or how the Samurai were taught, you are counter attacking his attack, it might look defensive, but it's not.

I actually hate the word Self Defense, because it implies waiting and reacting, I pefer Counter Assault, it's proactive,even if attacked first, you counter attack him, get him off balance, you gain control of the tempo of the situation.

 

[Brad Dunne]

I'm surprised that nobody (at least I didn't see it) has offered up the golden rule of combat...............

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR OPPONENT.........consider everyone trained.

 

[Tony]

It makes me sad that potential attackers could have studied a Martial Art or Boxing or even any other style because somewhere down the line they have not learnt humility or possibly even had good instruction. I know a lot of Clubs have strict rules about who they let in but some places will let anyone join and people who have an aggressive streak will only become more dangerous if they are not controlled. Long gone are the days when Kung fu schools would make students do boring jobs like carrying water or in make them sweep the floors to learn humility. I have a friend who has reached black belt level in Taekwondo who is very aggressive. He has been banned from sparring many times due to excessive contact. He gets enraged when someone makes contact with him and angry if he loses. I know he is at a good school but he has not learned humility. He is teaching younger students and its a worry because he is their role model. Although i could do with a bit more aggression in me to balance the constant fear I have of getting into a fight but when I have sparred I always feel remorse when I hurt someone. I even try to take to easy if i spar with a female student but of course she would want me to spar as if i were with a male student. In our class there was no hostility and we woudl touch gloves. In fact I would compliment my fellow sparring opponent on his ability rather than get angry because he lost which is what my friend does I believe!

Before I entered the Martial Arts I was attacked when I was 17, got some blows to the head and a kick to the groin but because I had sucha big rush of adrenaline I didn't feel a thing. At that time I was too shy to find a Martial Art class so I used to train myself from books, not really the best way! I think these attackers were probably experienced in some way but probably not martial arts.

 

[kidswarrior]

Stret Thugs train in their own ways, some even do stuff like Kickboxing,BJJ, and MMA.

I lived in a shady hood when I was younger, and everyone I knew either had a little MA and we all sparred or " Play fought", on top of that, unfortunatly we fought alot.

But do they take it to a level of expertise? In my experience with them, they lack the discipline to really follow through on much of anything.

I've worked with these guys professionally for about 20 years, and IMHO the thing they have going for them maybe more than any MA training, is as you said, they have fought alot. They're going to be able to handle the adrenaline dump that comes with sudden,chaotic, no referee street situations, and they have a fighting 'system' that works for them.

All the nice reasons to be in a Martial art aside, the reason for a fighting art is just that, fighting. That does not mean go out and look for it, but you should train for it.

To many MAs .... are missing the most important coarse of study, the study of violence.

Read the Police blotter, get your hands on SD accounts, watch Prison docs (because that's where the guys you need to fear really learn to get nasty) tape them and slow mo the assults you see, and then run the scenario at the Dojo.

Read guys like Payton Quinn, Marc McYoung, David Grossman, not even the seasoned fighter will agree with everything in their books, but they'll agree with more than they disagree with.

I also feel books by Military combat vets can be helpfull for developing combat mindset. Whether it's in a Rice Paddy in S.E. Asia, or in your living room, a fight for life and limb is War. Dead is dead, if its done to you by someone else, you are a combat casualty.

I agree to an extent. But if I spend too much time in that stuff, I get caught up in it, expecting the worst all the time. Can make one fearful, even paranoid, which is the opposite of what I want to continue to achieve with my MA training (and communicate to my MA students): a calm, fearless (confident) demeanor. I've found this to head off confrontations before they start, on many occasions (realisitically, maybe two-three dozen times in the 20 years). And yes, I know that despite this and our being smart about it (as someone said, brain is 90% of sefety) sometimes violence happens--there's always a crazy out there if we're around long enough.

Good, honest, tough training can win the day

Again, I agree. But also again, for my part, don't want for myself or my students to spend every day in fear of what might happpen because we've filled our imaginations with the worst of the worst crime scenes and possible scenarios, such as a steady diet of prison docs (where all the street psychopaths and sociopaths are squeezed into one place, making the situation exponentially worse), or reading police blotters, and mistaking that for the norm. As the late Jimmy H. Woo, Grand Master and Founder of Kung Fu San Soo, said: You can take my life, but not my confidence. From what I can tell, he was never fearful, always cheerful, yet survived or 'won' an estimated 200 street scenarios.

 

[kidswarrior]

It makes me sad that potential attackers could have studied a Martial Art or Boxing or even any other style because somewhere down the line they have not learnt humility or possibly even had good instruction. I know a lot of Clubs have strict rules about who they let in but some places will let anyone join and people who have an aggressive streak will only become more dangerous if they are not controlled.

It's difficult to predict which beginner may become hyper aggressive later on. But between beginning and becoming proficient, I believe most students take on the demeanor of their teacher. If the teacher shows humility, the students will 'catch' it (I believe most of the critical MA lessons are caught, not taught).

I think these attackers were probably experienced in some way but probably not martial arts.

Yes. Both Darth F. Takeda and I (and possibly others) agree with you here, as you'll see in prior posts.

 

[Stan]

The part of this question that makes me uncomfortable is the essentialism and moral absolutism. We talk of "street thugs" as if all people who end up committing violent crime are "violent by nature". How Aristotelian!

People attack others for any number of reasons. Don't assume that an attacker is a burnout or a loser. Don't assume that they're not disciplined.

A criminal is a person who commits a crime. If I went out and battered someone right now, I'd be a criminal. I'm less likely to do that for many reasons, including my martial arts training. But the talk of "street thugs" not training nor having the discipline to assumes that they are all by essence criminals, and have always been. People turn for any number of reasons. Most homeless weren't born that way, for example. Who here knows what they would do, or how far their morals would sink, if they didn't truly know where their next meal was coming from?

 

[Infinite]

The part of this question that makes me uncomfortable is the essentialism and moral absolutism. We talk of "street thugs" as if all people who end up committing violent crime are "violent by nature". How Aristotelian!

People attack others for any number of reasons. Don't assume that an attacker is a burnout or a loser. Don't assume that they're not disciplined.

A criminal is a person who commits a crime. If I went out and battered someone right now, I'd be a criminal. I'm less likely to do that for many reasons, including my martial arts training. But the talk of "street thugs" not training nor having the discipline to assumes that they are all by essence criminals, and have always been. People turn for any number of reasons. Most homeless weren't born that way, for example. Who here knows what they would do, or how far their morals would sink, if they didn't truly know where their next meal was coming from?

While these are all valuable points to consider and perhaps we were hyperfocusing I think we were just postulating the worst case scenario. In that case the attacker is a career criminal with the ability to nogitate violence.

The cracked out drug user with a knife isn't likely to have been trained he's likely to be hopped up and thus dangerious or not hopped up and thus dangerious.

The kid who is doing it to join a gang on the other hand. They are going to teach him to fight.

So the question is who are we likely to run into and have to worry about?

--Infy

 

[Empty Hands]

We of the jedi order must train hard and remain diligent!

The force is strong with this one... :jediduel: