Legalize Drugs to Stop Violence

[jim777]

A few more marijuana quotes:

"Two of my favorite things are sitting on my front porch smoking a pipe of sweet hemp, and playing my Hohner harmonica." - Abraham Lincoln (from a letter written by Lincoln during his presidency to the head of the Hohner Harmonica Company in Germany)

"Hemp is of first necessity to the wealth & protection of the country."
- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President

"Make the most you can of the Indian Hemp seed and sow it everywhere."
- George Washington, U.S. President

"We shall, by and by, want a world of hemp more for our own consumption."
- John Adams, U.S. President

"Penalties against possession of a drug should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself; and where they are, they should be changed. Nowhere is this more clear than in the laws against possession of marijuana in private for personal use... Therefore, I support legislation amending Federal law to eliminate all Federal criminal penalties for the possession of up to one ounce of marijuana." - Jimmy Carter, U.S. President

"I inhaled frequently. That was the point." - Barack Obama, U.S. President

"The war on drugs has been an utter failure. We need to rethink and decriminalize our nation's marijuana laws." -Barack Obama, January 2004

"The illegality of cannabis is outrageous, an impediment to full utilization of a drug which helps produce the serenity and insight, sensitivity and fellowship so desperately needed in this increasingly mad and dangerous world." - Carl Sagan, renown scientist, astronomer, astrochemist, author and TV host

"Why use up the forests which were centuries in the making and the mines which required ages to lay down, if we can get the equivalent of forest and mineral products in the annual growth of the hemp fields?" - Henry Ford, whose first Model-T was constructed from hemp fibers and built to run on hemp gasoline

"Prohibition... goes beyond the bound of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded" -Abraham Lincoln

"That is not a drug. It's a leaf." - Arnold Schwarzenegger, Governor of California

And last but not least

"I now have absolute proof that smoking even one marijuana cigarette is equal in brain damage to being on Bikini Island during an H-bomb blast" - Ronald Reagan

 

[Sukerkin]

Thank you for those. I had not heard many of them before :tup:.

It would seem that in the States the current attitude towards 'ganja' is as topsy-turvey as Britains is towards opiates. Not many people remember that we had a war with China ... not to destroy the drugs trade but to force them to sell it to us!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A few more marijuana quotes:
"Two of my favorite things are sitting on my front porch smoking a pipe of sweet hemp, and playing my Hohner harmonica." - Abraham Lincoln (from a letter written by Lincoln during his presidency to the head of the Hohner Harmonica Company in Germany)

"The war on drugs has been an utter failure. We need to rethink and decriminalize our nation's marijuana laws." -Barack Obama, January 2004

It would be more interesting if any of them were true. Most are misquotes, or refer to hemp as a product to be used in the manufacture of paper, cloth, and rope - not smoking.

The two above are examples. The first, because Lincoln never said it.

The second, because it's a half-quote. Obama said:

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/feb/01/obama-on-the-record/

In a little-noticed 2004 video featured today in The Washington Times, Mr. Obama sounds quite comfortable voicing his leftist leanings. "I think we need to rethink and decriminalize our marijuana laws," Mr. Obama told a Northwestern University audience as he campaigned for the Senate in 2004. "But I'm not somebody who believes in legalization of marijuana."

 

[jarrod]

i just did a very brief google search, & i couldn't find anything discrediting the lincoln quote, which is the one i thought was interesting.

lincoln was a wrestling champion who smoked hemp & played harmonica? i like this guy.

jf

 

[jim777]

It would be more interesting if any of them were true. Most are misquotes, or refer to hemp as a product to be used in the manufacture of paper, cloth, and rope - not smoking.

The two above are examples. The first, because Lincoln never said it.

The second, because it's a half-quote. Obama said:

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/feb/01/obama-on-the-record/

I think you could at least show a little proof that they're all misquotes and fabrications if you're going to state they are. Like we used to say on USENET before everyone had a computer, post proof or retract.
Carter's is a misquote? Sagan's a fabrication?

And I think we all know where Obama stands on full federal legalization anyway, as he addressed it in public in the last few days. But 'rethinking and decriminalizing' is in fact exactly what he has already done, by ordering the Attorney General and the DEA to stop enforcing federal marijuana laws where the states (13 so far for those counting at home) have written and passed laws that conflict with the federal statutes. So, half quote or not (which I think is still perfectly in context) there will be no more DEA raids of state sponsored medical marijuana dispensaries in the US directly because of President Obama's actions. we see this year either. I'm sure there's another quote somewhere about actions speaking louder than words, but I won't bother posting or looking for it.

And as you stated earlier in the thread "For myself, I remain against legalization of marijuana. I don't have to have a logical reason that I can defend to another person - I just don't want it to be legal", I have an opinion myself, and that is that it should never have been made illegal in the first place. And if not for the hysterics of Harry Anslinger, it wouldn't be.

As some of you know, I am a moderator on a guitar forum, and this subject came up recently there as well (it is getting atalkied about a lot lately, it's one of those things). Here's what someone wrote to me there on Friday:

"I personally think pot should be legal. Medical marijuana holds great promise for people with incurable conditions that cause constant pain. I have suffered from a mystery condition for 15 years. My immune system is constantly attacking my skin, blood, muscles, and organs in a misguided attempt by my white blood cells to rid my body of what it thinks are foreign invaders. My joints are swollen and very painful. My skin is constantly inflamed. I get severe muscle pain and am always sick. I have been prescribed steriods, addictive pain killers, and various experimental drugs in an attempt to stop what is going on inside of me. All with little or no success. My bones are irreversibly brittle, as are my teeth, due to the steriods. The experimental drugs were a last ditch effort and many of the side effects are unknown. I could wake up tomorrow and be perfectly healthy or I could wake up with a mutated foot growing out of my forehead. No one knows. Doctors are at a loss for how to explain why this is happening to my body and what is causing it.

Pot has taken away the pain, fatigue, depression, and hopelessness of my condition. It has allowed me to work to support my family. If pot were legal, and the gov't got their cut, the pot smokers of the world could single handedly pull this planet out of this recession. I mean, If the gov't sold pot in packs of 20 pre-rolled cigarette sized joints for $80 a pack...... Hell I can't roll 20 joints for $80. It's mostly all profit. Think of the number of americans who get high. If they all were buying legal gov't grown pot, with a 80% mark up, we'd be free of this black cloud hanging over our heads. One other bonus... less drug crime. If it were legal there would be less drug crime. Now before you all go off on me about that comment think about this. If someone wants to buy some pot and can't get it easily, they might turn to another cheaper drug that is easier to get a hold of. IF they can get pot easily they have no need to find other drugs.

In my area of northeastern Vermont prescription drugs are whats popular, especially with the younger crowd. Vicodin, percocet, ridalin, aderall, anything with a nacrotic base sell like wildfire here. If you ask any of those addicted to pills around here how they got into pills they all say the same thing, " they were cheaper and easier to get than pot". Now Meth has begun to rear it's ugly head. Same principle as the pills. You can get a sixteenth of a gram for about $20 here on the streets. For $20 they can be high for days. A quarter ounce of pot here costs between $80 and $100. I'm sure you can see the appeal of the cheaper drugs to these kids and young adults.

Sorry if I have offended anyone, that was not my intention. Btw, this is just my opinion and you are welcome to your own. Take care and in the words of Bill and Ted, "be excellent to each other!"

Luckily for him, he lives in one of the States with a medical law.

jim

 

[Bill Mattocks]

i just did a very brief google search, & i couldn't find anything discrediting the lincoln quote, which is the one i thought was interesting.

lincoln was a wrestling champion who smoked hemp & played harmonica? i like this guy.

jf

You could not find proof that he didn't say it, and therefore that means he did?

I can't find any evidence online that President Lincoln didn't wear a dress around the house. Guess that means he did.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think you could at least show a little proof that they're all misquotes and fabrications if you're going to state they are. Like we used to say on USENET before everyone had a computer, post proof or retract.

I agree. People who post 'quotes' like that should do a little research. I went through and debunked most of those quotes. It was fun and easy. Anyone who posts garbage like that could easily do the same.

Carter's is a misquote? Sagan's a fabrication?

So the whole thing is true if one or two of them are true?

And I think we all know where Obama stands on full federal legalization anyway, as he addressed it in public in the last few days. But 'rethinking and decriminalizing' is in fact exactly what he has already done, by ordering the Attorney General and the DEA to stop enforcing federal marijuana laws where the states (13 so far for those counting at home) have written and passed laws that conflict with the federal statutes. So, half quote or not (which I think is still perfectly in context) there will be no more DEA raids of state sponsored medical marijuana dispensaries in the US directly because of President Obama's actions. we see this year either. I'm sure there's another quote somewhere about actions speaking louder than words, but I won't bother posting or looking for it.

"I won't bother" but "demand proof." A closed mind gathers no grok.

And as you stated earlier in the thread "For myself, I remain against legalization of marijuana. I don't have to have a logical reason that I can defend to another person - I just don't want it to be legal", I have an opinion myself, and that is that it should never have been made illegal in the first place. And if not for the hysterics of Harry Anslinger, it wouldn't be.

You are entitled to your opinion. That's cool.

As some of you know, I am a moderator on a guitar forum, and this subject came up recently there as well (it is getting atalkied about a lot lately, it's one of those things). Here's what someone wrote to me there on Friday:

"I personally think pot should be legal. Medical marijuana holds great promise for people with incurable conditions that cause constant pain. I have suffered from a mystery condition for 15 years. My immune system is constantly attacking my skin, blood, muscles, and organs in a misguided attempt by my white blood cells to rid my body of what it thinks are foreign invaders. My joints are swollen and very painful. My skin is constantly inflamed. I get severe muscle pain and am always sick. I have been prescribed steriods, addictive pain killers, and various experimental drugs in an attempt to stop what is going on inside of me. All with little or no success. My bones are irreversibly brittle, as are my teeth, due to the steriods. The experimental drugs were a last ditch effort and many of the side effects are unknown. I could wake up tomorrow and be perfectly healthy or I could wake up with a mutated foot growing out of my forehead. No one knows. Doctors are at a loss for how to explain why this is happening to my body and what is causing it.

Pot has taken away the pain, fatigue, depression, and hopelessness of my condition. It has allowed me to work to support my family. If pot were legal, and the gov't got their cut, the pot smokers of the world could single handedly pull this planet out of this recession. I mean, If the gov't sold pot in packs of 20 pre-rolled cigarette sized joints for $80 a pack...... Hell I can't roll 20 joints for $80. It's mostly all profit. Think of the number of americans who get high. If they all were buying legal gov't grown pot, with a 80% mark up, we'd be free of this black cloud hanging over our heads. One other bonus... less drug crime. If it were legal there would be less drug crime. Now before you all go off on me about that comment think about this. If someone wants to buy some pot and can't get it easily, they might turn to another cheaper drug that is easier to get a hold of. IF they can get pot easily they have no need to find other drugs.

In my area of northeastern Vermont prescription drugs are whats popular, especially with the younger crowd. Vicodin, percocet, ridalin, aderall, anything with a nacrotic base sell like wildfire here. If you ask any of those addicted to pills around here how they got into pills they all say the same thing, " they were cheaper and easier to get than pot". Now Meth has begun to rear it's ugly head. Same principle as the pills. You can get a sixteenth of a gram for about $20 here on the streets. For $20 they can be high for days. A quarter ounce of pot here costs between $80 and $100. I'm sure you can see the appeal of the cheaper drugs to these kids and young adults.

Sorry if I have offended anyone, that was not my intention. Btw, this is just my opinion and you are welcome to your own. Take care and in the words of Bill and Ted, "be excellent to each other!"

Luckily for him, he lives in one of the States with a medical law.

I am not against the medical use of marijuana, but I am against its use as a recreational drug for the purpose of intoxication.

And as we see in California, the law is easily abused - the legal authority to prescribe 'medical marijuana' is as simple as 'chronic pain'. And as several news reports have shown, there a number of doctors who will willingly prescribe pot for the 'chronic pain' that their patients report - any old chronic pain will do - even the completely made-up kind.

So while I have no objection to the medical use of marijuana, in California, it's just a wink-wink backdoor legalization for any old stoner who wants him some pot.

 

[Cryozombie]

The only issue I have with your argument, Bill, is that I have difficulty taking what you say at face value for the simple reason that you cannot vocalize a reasonable, supportable reason, you "Just dont want it to be legal" and THAT is somthing I can't wrap my head around. I liken it to my campaign to Illegalize painting yourself green and dancing in the streets in a toga. I can't tell you why it should be illegal, but, damn it, it should, you just gotta trust me on that.

So, for my part anyhow, I think anything Anti you say, or attempts to discredit others needs to be articulated with facts to support the statements rather than a "I found it on my own, so you should too!" sort of response, elsewise I gotta assume its just more baseless bias.

*shrug*

Now, me personally? I dont care if it's legal or illegal at this point, as I don't use it, and my drug of choice is readily availible every morning, even in my office at work, and my drug of second choice is often waiting at home in a bottle when I get there. Both are already legal, and so I'm good to go. Although I do admit I am confused by the "Pot is evil but Rum is Tasty and extra taxable" stance our goverment has.

 

[jarrod]

You could not find proof that he didn't say it, and therefore that means he did?

I can't find any evidence online that President Lincoln didn't wear a dress around the house. Guess that means he did.

no, i did a brief search because you said it was a false quote, & i didn't find anything substantiating your claim. i found references to the letter it is supposed to have come from, but i didn't find the letter. so if anyone has either the source for the quote, or a source refuting that he ever wrote it, i would be interested in seeing either.

jf

 

[jim777]

I agree. People who post 'quotes' like that should do a little research. I went through and debunked most of those quotes. It was fun and easy. Anyone who posts garbage like that could easily do the same.

Must have missed where you did that exactly...

So the whole thing is true if one or two of them are true?

I don't know Bill, you're the one who said they were misquotes and fabrications, you tell me how many have to be true for you to be a liar/blowhard/whatever.

"I won't bother" but "demand proof." A closed mind gathers no grok.

"Actions speak louder than words" doesn't need to be quoted, sorry the sarcasm aimed directly at you flew over your head.

I am not against the medical use of marijuana, but I am against its use as a recreational drug for the purpose of intoxication.

And as we see in California, the law is easily abused - the legal authority to prescribe 'medical marijuana' is as simple as 'chronic pain'. And as several news reports have shown, there a number of doctors who will willingly prescribe pot for the 'chronic pain' that their patients report - any old chronic pain will do - even the completely made-up kind.

So while I have no objection to the medical use of marijuana, in California, it's just a wink-wink backdoor legalization for any old stoner who wants him some pot.

Any old stoner who wants it can get it now! :lol: That's the whole point of stoping the charade of prohibition! And that's how California wanted it, and that's how California enacted it, on purpose. I'm sure you know they are well on their way to rectifying the situation with Tom Ammiano's AB390 bill. There are an estimated 40 million people in the US who smoke, over 14 million who smoke 'once a month or more', not including the last three presidents. It's a lot of people Bill, not just Jerry Garcia wannabe's.

Anyway, as a prohibitionist yourself, I'm sure you believe that marijuana leads to harder drugs, like heroin and others. Here's a few attributed quotes for you on that score:

1. "There is no conclusive evidence that the drug effects of marijuana are causally linked to the subsequent abuse of other illicit drugs."
   Source:
   Janet E. Joy, Stanley J. Watson, Jr., and John A Benson, Jr., "Marijuana and Medicine: Assessing the Science Base," Division of Neuroscience and Behavioral Research, Institute of Medicine (Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1999).
2. "Our key findings were that 1) there are no unique factors distinguishing the gateway sequence and the reverse sequence — that is, the sequence is opportunistic; 2) the gateway sequence and the reverse sequence have the same prognostic accuracy; and 3) a sizable proportion of substance users begin regular consumption with an illicit drug. These results, considered in the aggregate, indicate that the gateway sequence is not an invariant pathway and, when manifest, is not related to specific risk factors and does not have prognostic utility. The results of this study as well as other studies demonstrate that abusable drugs occupy neither a specific place in a hierarchy nor a discrete position in a temporal sequence. These latter presumptions of the gateway hypothesis constitute what Whitehead referred to as the 'fallacy of misplaced connectedness,' namely, asserting 'assumptions about categories that do not correspond with the empirical world.'"
   Source:
   Tarter, Ralph E., PhD, Vanyukov, Michael, PhD, Kirisci, Levent, PhD, Reynolds, Maureen, PhD, Clark, Duncan B., MD, PhD, "Predictors of Marijuana Use in Adolescents Before and After Licit Drug Use: Examination of the Gateway Hypothesis," American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 63, No. 12, December 2006, p. 2139.
3. "More than 100 million Americans have tried marijuana; 14.4 million Americans are estimated to be "past-month" users. Yet there are only an estimated 2,075,000 "past-month" users of cocaine and 153,000 "past-month" users of heroin." Source:
   Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, Results from the 2007 National Survey on Drug Use and Health: National Findings (Office of Applied Studies, NSDUH Series H-34, DHHS Publication No. SMA 08-4343), Rockville, MD, Sept. 2008, p. 250, Table G.1, and p. 254, Table G.5.

 

[Flea]

Anecdote:

A friend of mine has a very bad case of Bipolar type 1. That is, it comes with the severe highs and lows. She used to find herself hospitalized every couple of years. Finally her psychiatrist offered her a standing prescription for Marinol, the test-tube version of marijuana. She takes it every day with her other prescriptions along with a little extra bump when she feels the need. She started on it ten years ago, and she hasn't been in hospital since.

Before she got the Marinol, she used to take it au naturel all the time and it was mildly helpful, though not strong enough to really blunt the edge of a destructive mania. I'ts a shame that it's only available to those who can afford it, since so many people who could benefit from it the most are disabled to the point that they can't work and have spotty health coverage. Now you've had your recommended daily allowance of irony.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

no, i did a brief search because you said it was a false quote, & i didn't find anything substantiating your claim. i found references to the letter it is supposed to have come from, but i didn't find the letter. so if anyone has either the source for the quote, or a source refuting that he ever wrote it, i would be interested in seeing either.

jf

I didn't make the original claim, you did. When you claim someone said something, it is your job to provide the proof. That's how it works.

Don't feel too badly, though. This happens on the left and right, on all sides of religions, and so on. During the recent presidential elections, I got all kinds of emails from 'friends' claiming Obama was a Muslim. I told them they were wrong. They demanded that I 'prove' he isn't a Muslim. No, see, that's not how it works. If you state Obama is a Muslim, you have to prove it. By the same token, if you state Lincoln was a dope-smoker, you have to prove it - not up to me to prove he wasn't.

 

[jarrod]

I didn't make the original claim, you did. When you claim someone said something, it is your job to provide the proof. That's how it works.

Don't feel too badly, though. This happens on the left and right, on all sides of religions, and so on. During the recent presidential elections, I got all kinds of emails from 'friends' claiming Obama was a Muslim. I told them they were wrong. They demanded that I 'prove' he isn't a Muslim. No, see, that's not how it works. If you state Obama is a Muslim, you have to prove it. By the same token, if you state Lincoln was a dope-smoker, you have to prove it - not up to me to prove he wasn't.

i don't feel very badly at all, since jim777 made the claim & not me. what are you, high?

jf

 

[Jimi]

Bill, what kind of proof do you want? Dig up former President Lincoln to do a "BONES" like test to prove he had THC in his body from smoking Marijuana? LOL. (Kidding, just an exageration) We can't ask Lincoln this, but it is much easier to DEBUNK anything someone claims about a person once that person is dead and gone. Even when there are facts or some other support for or against something, it is still easy to make it all second or third hand info. that must be false and can not be trusted. We can take almost any info. in our History about any of our Presidents and find a way to DEBUNK it. Did Washington really stand on the front of the boat crossing the Deleware River? Of course he did, I have seen the painting. LOL. I do believe that Lincoln did probably smoke Herb, as well as the 1st President of our Nation.


There are notes in George Washingtons Journals leaving instructions for his farm hands (Maybe even slaves) to separate the Hemp plant stems & seeds from the flower, for rope production & his personal use. Now are you going to investigate somehow to DEBUNK that as well? If George did smoke, that makes him in violation of our current laws, therefore such info. is the baseless ramblings of a substance abuser, right?


If someone posts info that our Founding Fathers & former Presidents grew, smoked & produced materials from the Hemp (Marijuana) plant & upheld what good they found in it, it is to be reviewed, not taken as a falsehood to destroy your way of thinking, nor is it to be debunked to prove your opinion right. Such info will not add any pain to your familys past misfortune and is harming no-one. Unless of course you feel that no-one can convince you that any info. (I debunk one bit of info. so it is all false) that our Founding Fathers & Former Presidents had any tolerance for this substance, so it is treason to state otherwise damaging our great Nation.


Again Bill, do you feel that if such info. so easily debunked will pull the wool over our citizens eyes and be our Nations downfall? I feel it is much more likely that some severe corrupt politicians twisted policies freight trained passed the people & even congress can have much more damaging effects on our Nation than any truth about passed Presidents use of Marijuana, or the need for repeal of Marijuana Law, or even the decrimialazation of Marijuana possession could ever have.


I feel that in most cases described by people stating that,"The evil herb is what caused such terrible acts from a Family member" is misplacing blame, blaming a substance over human faults. Most people who are defined as someone who will "Use Marijuana as a gateway drug" are usually of such an addictive nature/personality that they would find their way to hard drugs, criminal activities or even wreckless behavior regardless of any possible use of THE GATEWAY DRUG. This is where I feel too many people blame the substance rather than the individual because it is too painfull to see their loved ones in such a light. Blaming the DRUG is akin to saying, "It's not my fault (Or so and so's fault) the devil (Weed) made me do it." Destroy the susbstance and anyone associated with it, that will make it alright (maybe even avenge my loved ones misfortune).

 

[Sukerkin]

Jimi, I wonder i I could ask to to nip back into your post above and paragraph it for us?

A monoblock of text like that will be very unlikely to be read by many and so your points will be lost.

 

[Jimi]

I tried. Sorry

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, what kind of proof do you want?

The statement said that President Lincoln wrote a letter to the Hohner company stating that a few of his pleasures in life were smoking sweet hemp and playing his harmonica. If that is true, where is the letter?

That would be sufficient proof.

Numerous 'quotes' exist that would attempt to legitimize pot-smoking on the basis that our 'Founding Fathers' did it. If they did, then it is made to seem as if pot-smoking were a normal, everyday kind of thing that everybody did, from the president on down. If not, then ... that argument means nothing.

So, if you're going to claim it, you have to prove it. It's a serious charge, with serious implications. It is not up to others to disprove, it is up to the people who make the charge to prove it. Where is the letter?

Interestingly, groups like NORML contradict their own arguments. They argue in favor of the legalization of hemp-growing, on the basis that hemp contains an infinitesimally small amount of THC in it - such that no one could get high by smoking it. And we do know from historical documents that hemp was grown as a crop, just like corn, soybeans, wheat, cotton, tobacco, and so on - by the Founding Fathers. But it was grown to make hemp rope, cloth, and paper. These are the things that NORML would like to see made legal again - and I agree with them.

But if the Founding Fathers grew 'hemp' then they did not smoke it - because as NORML themselves point out, it has no THC in it, they could not have gotten stoned from it.

 

[Jimi]

I am not trying to legitimize pot smoking (though I feel it is a very small trespass by compairason to drugs like crack, cocaine & heroine), you are trying to demonize it. Look at your past posts Bill. You hate any illegal substance regardless if the laws on the books are corrupt & unfair. Wether or not Lincoln smoked pot is not my point. I could care less about NORML and its own propoganda, but there are those so against pot they have there own propoganda as well.

Its about a violence & poor judgment thing. I feel people blame substances, and not the person committing the criminal or wreckless acts. Someone does something terrible and its the drug doing this not the innocent family member that put herself & others in those circumstances by their own weakness for any substance. Similar terrible things like what have happened to your family also happen in situations where the only drug is a legal one like alcohol. But booze is not illegal so the booze is not to blame?

 

[Nolerama]

Its about a violence & poor judgment thing. I feel people blame substances, and not the person committing the criminal or wreckless acts.

Hit that right on the head. Truth like that can ruffle a few feathers, though. We all have our weak points, but when they're pointed out, some take the gesture personally.

 

[jim777]

Interestingly, groups like NORML contradict their own arguments. They argue in favor of the legalization of hemp-growing, on the basis that hemp contains an infinitesimally small amount of THC in it - such that no one could get high by smoking it. And we do know from historical documents that hemp was grown as a crop, just like corn, soybeans, wheat, cotton, tobacco, and so on - by the Founding Fathers. But it was grown to make hemp rope, cloth, and paper. These are the things that NORML would like to see made legal again - and I agree with them.

But if the Founding Fathers grew 'hemp' then they did not smoke it - because as NORML themselves point out, it has no THC in it, they could not have gotten stoned from it.

The "hemp" that existed in Virginia in the 1600s and 1700s was exactly the same as the pot that people smoke today. It's the same plant Bill. The "industrial" hemp that people grow for rope and such are the male plants, not the female plants that people smoke. You can't tell if a plant is male or female until its a month or so old, so you always grow them both; there's no way around it. No hemp, no pot, because there's no seeds. And are you seriously (seriously?!) saying the guys that decided to just go right on ahead and light up the tobacco plants they came across didn't try everything else? I'm guessing they did, as people have been smoking "hemp" for at least 2700 years now Bill, and it's only been evil and illegal since Harry Anslinger.

And here's another quote for you Bill "I couldn't have gotten so stinking rich without George Bush, George Bush Jr., Ronald Reagan, even El Presidente Obama, none of them have the cajones to stand up to all the big money that wants to keep this stuff illegal. From the bottom of my heart, I want to say, Gracias amigos, I owe my whole empire to you." Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman Loera reported head of the Sinaloa cartel in Mexico SOURCE: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-henry-sterry/mexican-drug-lord-officia_b_179596.html?view=screen