Legal restriction of abortion doesn't change the rate

[shesulsa]

Question: Does anyone disagree with the notion that people have to be responsible for themselves, and that women need to be (and are perfectly capable of being) responsible for themselves, and since the baby ends up in her body, it behoves women to ensure that proper precautions (ie. preventative measures) are taken to prevent unwanted pregnancy?

I'm confused, because I got this negative rep (unsigned of course):

a woman doesn't get pregnant alone - why is it her fault? Is a man incapable of wrapping his own penis???

I have been otherwise engaged and haven't been able to monitor this thread as carefully as I wished but I'm glad I stumbled in when I did.

I can't speak to the rep statement as far as ownership, but it brings about other things in my thoughts and please forgive me if this has already been discussed.

It behooves, IMO, both parties to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy. I am wont to make the point that if so many boys are "duped" into thinking their girl is on a hormone-based contraceptive, is using an internal barrier device (diaphragm, cervical cup, IUD) or low in her ovulatory cycle, why on earth aren't they taking precautions from being "duped?" To me it's a bit like risk management - it's really everybody's job but when you start to tell people that, they roll their eyes.

It should be mathematically easier to control one egg per month than billions of sperm each ejaculation, however the location of delivery (forgive me) should be considered, I think.

While EVERY woman should value her body as a temple, we must also pepper that with the still retarded methods of women coming to grips with their sexuality. Who must be the virgin? Who must wear the white? And yet, she must be sultry and accomplished, educate herself further in the pleasuring of her man.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? Why are men not seeing the woman's body as a temple? Would you tromp through church with muddy boots? Or would you wear your rubbers in the rain and wear your clean, appropriate shoes in the House of God? Surely you wouldn't go in barefoot?

And I'm sure there are plenty of men on this board who would claim to honor women upon their pedestals and agree with me that their daughters are precious as were their mothers and their wives but who order porn movies, subscribe to naughty mags and perhaps even buy the occasional hooker.

As long as we have this attitude that a woman's vagina is a commodity to be bought, sold, used and discarded, there will not be the endeavor to honor her, her body nor one's own body to use barrier contraception and nonoxynol-9 VOLUNTARILY by the man.

Of course men need to be responsible too. But at the end of the day, the last line of defense is the woman. It is in HER body that the kid will grow inside, making her more responsible and with more power by default. Meaning that she can decide to get an abortion regardless of what the father says, and it is her body so she needs to be responsible to ensure that doesn't have to happen.

Is that a correct assessment, or am I somehow flawed in my thinking?

I think she does have more right than the man to decide upon the abortion, however there is still the nature of relationships between men and women and religion to be considered as well. I think, upon a quick glance, that some people have already spoken to that here so I will refrain.

Furthermore, is there a lack of available birth control in this country that I am missing? I am not seeing the problem as a lack of available birth control. Sure, the pill isn't free. But Condoms are inexpensive and readily available. I see the problem as lack of education, and lack of personal responsibilty on the part of both young men and women.

It's almost fatally embarassing for teens to go buy condoms and you can't get them at the free clinic without waiting the whole damn day and getting an exam. In some states they won't without a parent's consent. And ironically, while we don't want our teens having babies, we don't seem to want them to have birth control either. I challenge everyone reading this who had children 12 and older to buy them a box of condoms and an appropriately-sized and appropriately-shaped plant food and teach their kids how AND WHEN to properly put a condom on, and HOW/WHEN TO PROPERLY TAKE ONE OFF!!!!

Our children will become more comfortable taking care of their bodies with barrier contraception if WE TEACH THEM THERE'S NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF. Condoms may as well be considered vitamins.

Really, in a world where everyone wants to blame something else for their actions, I see that education needs to be on taking responsibility for yourself, not just sex ed.

But that's just not enough, don't you see??? "Be responsible for yourself, wait for sex" doesn't play louder in the head than whatever's on the radio when teens are making out.

Nor do the facts of abortion regardless of legality seem to sway the Catholic Church nor any other anti-contraceptive religion. They don't seem to keep men from raping women in Africa, they don't seem to bother the men in the middle east who are never punished for the crime (nay, the women are if they claim it), etc.

But maybe I am wrong in my thinking... :idunno:

I think what we all must do is challenge our beliefs and our suppositions and put them up against the facts.

I think abortion is the taking of life. However, I cannot see that we have progressed enough in this world to provide for all the unwanted and otherwise orphaned children we already have, let alone the millions more we would have if we could keep abortion from happening at all.

When the homeless orphaned unwanted children are a rarity ... THEN we should approach the legality of abortion.

But I cannot look at the lack of education, the lack of the respect for women's bodies, the sexual weaponry and grandiose expectations and condone the continued movement towards criminalizing abortion. I cannot.

 

[michaeledward]

Today there are more options for avoiding pregnancies.

This is a comparison that has only one side. What are your comparing to? What are those 'more options' and what were the 'less options' that existed at the other side of the equation.

It is also less stigmatizing for a woman to bear and keep her child; and abortion is legal.

Again, comparied to what? And, the stigmatization effect does not seem to impact the frequency of abortions.

Single women and their children comprise the largest segment of poor Americans; on the one hand we must help the poor; on the other we must do what we can to keep people from becoming poor.

And, how do you suppose we understake these two tasks .. helping the poor, and prevent people from becoming poor?

 

[crushing]

Naturally, pro-lifers attribute this to ultrasound, more women not having abortions because they see their fetus, and increased restrictions in several states, while pro-choicers attribute it to increased education and use of contraceptives to prevent STDs among young people.

Sounds like they are partly on the same page as ultrasounds are part of the increased education over the years.

 

[shesulsa]

When abortion was illegal there were women who would avoid unwanted pregnancy and avoid having to have an abortion. The equivalent women in this group today may become unintentionally pregnant, believing that they can take care of it with an abortion, find out that they are not willing to have a legal abortion and thus become unwed mothers.

I'm talking about a group of women who wouldn't have had abortions when it was illegal and are not willing to have abortions when it become legal.

The propostion put forth is that some of the increase in single moms comes from the group of women who will not have legal abortions. In the past, they would have avoided the pregnancy.

So I am agreeing (stipulating without reading the study) that the number of abortions, legal and illegal, would have remained the same. But some other choices may have changed relative to preventing pregnancy or not.

I *think* I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure. You said in your first sentence that before abortion was legal women would just avoid getting pregnant and if they couldn't they would avoid abortion??

:shrug:

Sir ... women have been having abortions since they have been getting pregnant. They used to bring about miscarriage by intentional overwork or dehydration, self-starvation. They would have "quilting bees" where not only would the women sew, but the women who were unavoidably pregnant and who could not provide for the coming child would get repeatedly punched and kicked in the stomach to bring about miscarriage. When these things and other methods failed, they often tried dangerous concoctions which included sulfur, human hair and sometimes bits of poison, figuring if they could come close enough to death to expel the fetus and still recover that it would be worth the trouble.

And then there are the poor women some have forgotten about - the crochet or knitting needles, six-penny nails, inserted sachets of poison, twigs, pokers, coathangers. These are not invented tales ... these are morbid truths!

This should speak, if nothing else, to the desperation that drives women to torture themselves and endanger their very lives.

 

[Ray]

...What are your comparing to?
...Again, comparied to what?

Sorry, I thought it was obvious; my comparision was between past and present America.

And, how do you suppose we understake these two tasks .. helping the poor, and prevent people from becoming poor?

You will do a great work among the people. From your resources, give. From your knowledge, share.

 

[elder999]

Sir ... women have been having abortions since they have been getting pregnant. .

There are a variety of herbal teas that can be used to effectively (though somewhat dangerously) induce miscarriage in the first trimester, and they have been used for possibly thousands of years.

 

[Ray]

I *think* I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure. You said in your first sentence that before abortion was legal women would just avoid getting pregnant and if they couldn't they would avoid abortion??

I repeat the idea postulated by someone else, I thought it was an interesting observation which may (or may not) explain some other trends that occurred in American society.

I agreed with the premise that the legal status of abortion may not have changed its rate. And I did not pass judgment on those who did or did not choose to have an abortion. Nor do I look down on those who may have used tremendously barbaric and unsafe methods to end a pregnancy when it was not legal (I don't mean abortion itself, but the way it was performed and the where it was performed when illegal).

Neither do I say that abortion should be illegal or not. It is a very tough issue for me in many ways. When I was younger, some positions that I held were easy to hold. Having gained experience (personal and by observation) I now find it difficult to make choices that apply to others...but it has become much easier to make choices that apply to me.

 

[shesulsa]

I repeat the idea postulated by someone else, I thought it was an interesting observation which may (or may not) explain some other trends that occurred in American society.

I agreed with the premise that the legal status of abortion may not have changed its rate. And I did not pass judgment on those who did or did not choose to have an abortion. Nor do I look down on those who may have used tremendously barbaric and unsafe methods to end a pregnancy when it was not legal (I don't mean abortion itself, but the way it was performed and the where it was performed when illegal).

Neither do I say that abortion should be illegal or not. It is a very tough issue for me in many ways. When I was younger, some positions that I held were easy to hold. Having gained experience (personal and by observation) I now find it difficult to make choices that apply to others...but it has become much easier to make choices that apply to me.

Thanks for the clarification and I hope you didn't take my post as attacking; it was not meant as such.

I posted earlier I have not read through the thread very carefully for a day or so.

:asian:

 

[Kacey]

Half of the women who have abortions are using contraceptives. Do you find their actions morally repugnant?

I find their actions to be none of my business, unless they ask me personally for my opinion. I gave my opinion for myself, based on my own personal values - others, as I said, have different values based on their upbringing, culture, and current relationships.

Whatever your opinion on abortion, advocate for laws that you find appropriate - and live with the ones you get. Talk to your friends, family, coworkers, and so on - get different perspectives, have conversations - and make your own decision. That's what I did, and I am only expressing my opinion because this is an appropriate forum to do so: the question was raised and I responded to it.

If you don't agree with abortions, don't have one (if you are female); take appropriate precautions against unwanted pregnancy (both male and female). Certainly, circumstances can cause even the most effective form of birth control to fail. Talk to your partner before engaging in sexual activity regardless of where you are in your beliefs, know what you would do in case circumstances make it necessary to take action before you are faced with a serious issue, one that affects the people involved emotionally, physically, mentally - because this one issue can be a deal breaker. But if it doesn't involve you personally - why is it any of your business what people you don't know choose to do with their reproductive processes?

 

[Makalakumu]

Question: Does anyone disagree with the notion that people have to be responsible for themselves, and that women need to be (and are perfectly capable of being) responsible for themselves, and since the baby ends up in her body, it behoves women to ensure that proper precautions (ie. preventative measures) are taken to prevent unwanted pregnancy?

OK, a couple of points, is it irresponsible of a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy to use abortion as a contraceptive? I don't see how a woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy is irresponsible now why it should even cast her in a light that would even hint at such.

Also, this might be a new thread topic, but I was wondering the other day just how much say a man has in this topic. What if he impregnates a woman, he wants her to have an abortion and she refuses? Or if she wants an abortion and he does not? Legally, doesn't the woman's body take precedence? How does that jive with man's rights and responsibility?

 

[crushing]

OK, a couple of points, is it irresponsible of a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy to use abortion as a contraceptive? I don't see how a woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy is irresponsible now why it should even cast her in a light that would even hint at such.

How can an abortion be used as a contraceptive? I can understand how pills, barriers, spermicides and the like are contraceptives, but how can an abortion be one?

Also, this might be a new thread topic, but I was wondering the other day just how much say a man has in this topic. What if he impregnates a woman, he wants her to have an abortion and she refuses? Or if she wants an abortion and he does not? Legally, doesn't the woman's body take precedence? How does that jive with man's rights and responsibility?

Good question. I touched on this earlier in the thread. And the negative rep comment given Cruentus had me thinking about it again. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the man has no pre-natal legal standing despite being a 50% contributor to the collaborative creative effort. If he wants the baby and she doesn't, too bad. If she does want it, but he doesn't he may have a financial responsibility for nearly two decades.

Maybe someone familiar with the law can shed some light on the lack of balance between rights and responsibilities of the male co-creator?

 

[elder999]

OK, a couple of points, is it irresponsible of a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy to use abortion as a contraceptive? I don't see how a woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy is irresponsible now why it should even cast her in a light that would even hint at such.

Also, this might be a new thread topic, but I was wondering the other day just how much say a man has in this topic. What if he impregnates a woman, he wants her to have an abortion and she refuses? Or if she wants an abortion and he does not? Legally, doesn't the woman's body take precedence? How does that jive with man's rights and responsibility?

For the record, I'm morally not in favor of abortion-so I'll never have one.
Nor would I choose to be party to one. Also for the record, I believe it pretty much is a woman's choice, and one she has a right to-if I were to be involved, I'd take the position of being against it, but there would be no argument, because I'd basically have none-it's her decisioin.

Of course, I've already got kids, don't intend to have anymore-established that my wife truly didn't want kids before we got married, and got a vasectomy. Pretty much the limits of my responsibility right there.....

When my first wife died, I wound up being the sole caretaker for a variety of responsibilities most fathers probably abdicate to their wives. Needless to say, the advent of puberty was an interesting experience for both my daughter and myself.Thank God I had my sisters help with that one! Likewise, the numerous discussions we had about sexual behavior, protection, morality, and yes, abortion were interesting and enlightening for both of us-mostly becuase I've always tried to treat my kids as adults, and let them know that I respect and value their opinions. I like to think that my daughter will never be in the position of making that choice, but I also like to think-and wanted her to know-that the choice is hers, without any judgement from me (she's almost 22 now, so it's really none of my business) and that I'd raised her to have enough information and personal moral clarity to make a decision that she can live with.

 

[Makalakumu]

How can an abortion be used as a contraceptive? I can understand how pills, barriers, spermicides and the like are contraceptives, but how can an abortion be one?

Maybe the word contraceptive was a poor choice. Perhaps a better idea of what I was talking about is population control. Birth control being one step, abortion another, and finally sterylization. I wonder if one could rationalize a continuum between them so that it becomes somewhat like the force continuum we MAists talk about. I can definitely see how increasing levels of invasion could be construed.

 

[Kreth]

Maybe the word contraceptive was a poor choice.

Not really. Unfortunately, there are those who consider abortion a viable form of birth control.

 

[Gordon Nore]

What's always mystified me is that many of these hardcore RTL activists are men. :idunno:

Not surprising to me at all. Abortion -- as a legislative issue -- is about control over women. Those who fervently push for RTL are statistically more likely to vote in favour of the death penalty. In my observation, they are the first cry foul when public funding is expended on welfare, which might actually be used to keep these children alive.

[Abortion opponents] love little babies, as long as they're in somebody else's uterus.

Joycelyn Elders, former U.S. Surgeon General, Redbook Magazine (August, 1994).

Elders was right on the money and got fired for injecting honesty into the discussion. So people essentially talk around this topic. Pro Choice, for instance, warns us that when abortion is illegal, women will be forced to seek out back room abortionist. That's certainly true, but it's irrelevant in the face of the fact that we're still calling upon legislators to decide what a woman can or cannot do with her own uterus. To all intents and purposes, a woman's uterus is not her own.

Then there's the feverish parsing of the issue: For example, Abortion's ok if the woman's life is at risk, if she is the victim of rape, if the child is going to be seriously disabled. In other words disabled children, or those conceived as the result of a violent, criminal assault, are less precious than those conceived in a loving relationship. We still come back to this notion that someone has to decide what is best for women and their children.

My favourites are endless apocryphal stories of women who would rather have an abortion than use birth control. Do such people exist? Probably, but who gives a squirt? What if we denied surgery to people who eat poorly, never exercise, drink too much, or smoke?

 

[crushing]

Not surprising to me at all. Abortion -- as a legislative issue -- is about control over women.

That claim is ridiculous to me, and I'm not surprised to see it thrown out there on an issue that can be so emotional for many people. If women were being prevented from doing anything that ONLY affected them, you would have a point.

 

[Cruentus]

It behooves, IMO, both parties to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy. I am wont to make the point that if so many boys are "duped" into thinking their girl is on a hormone-based contraceptive, is using an internal barrier device (diaphragm, cervical cup, IUD) or low in her ovulatory cycle, why on earth aren't they taking precautions from being "duped?" To me it's a bit like risk management - it's really everybody's job but when you start to tell people that, they roll their eyes.

I agree with you there. I mean, of course it is both the man and womans responsibility. It just goes to show how emotionally charged people are in these discussions, as I never implied otherwise, yet it would seem that someone thought so (hence negative rep and comment).

The only thing that I had been saying was that unless we are talking about situations of rape, there are no victims here. If a girl willingly has sex and get's pregnant, she has no one else to blame but her self. Same is true for the guy who assumes a girl is on the pill, only to find out otherwise.

It should be mathematically easier to control one egg per month than billions of sperm each ejaculation, however the location of delivery (forgive me) should be considered, I think.

While EVERY woman should value her body as a temple, we must also pepper that with the still retarded methods of women coming to grips with their sexuality. Who must be the virgin? Who must wear the white? And yet, she must be sultry and accomplished, educate herself further in the pleasuring of her man.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? Why are men not seeing the woman's body as a temple? Would you tromp through church with muddy boots? Or would you wear your rubbers in the rain and wear your clean, appropriate shoes in the House of God? Surely you wouldn't go in barefoot?

And I'm sure there are plenty of men on this board who would claim to honor women upon their pedestals and agree with me that their daughters are precious as were their mothers and their wives but who order porn movies, subscribe to naughty mags and perhaps even buy the occasional hooker.

As long as we have this attitude that a woman's vagina is a commodity to be bought, sold, used and discarded, there will not be the endeavor to honor her, her body nor one's own body to use barrier contraception and nonoxynol-9 VOLUNTARILY by the man.


I think she does have more right than the man to decide upon the abortion, however there is still the nature of relationships between men and women and religion to be considered as well. I think, upon a quick glance, that some people have already spoken to that here so I will refrain.

You bring up an interesting point that hasn't been brought up yet; and that is the double standards and disrespect that our culture has towards women that lead to all sorts of flawed thinking in matters like these.

I say cultural thing, because I think this goes beyond what "men" think about women's bodies. For every porno that a man goes to download are willing women with webcams. How many young girls out there are willing to disrespect themselves or their peers by using their bodies and sex as leverage, as evident if one were to walk into any bar around the country or watch any reality show?

I am just saying that I believe that this is a social problem that goes beyond "man" and "woman," but is in interesting one as it pertains to this topic.

It's almost fatally embarassing for teens to go buy condoms and you can't get them at the free clinic without waiting the whole damn day and getting an exam. In some states they won't without a parent's consent. And ironically, while we don't want our teens having babies, we don't seem to want them to have birth control either. I challenge everyone reading this who had children 12 and older to buy them a box of condoms and an appropriately-sized and appropriately-shaped plant food and teach their kids how AND WHEN to properly put a condom on, and HOW/WHEN TO PROPERLY TAKE ONE OFF!!!!

Our children will become more comfortable taking care of their bodies with barrier contraception if WE TEACH THEM THERE'S NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF. Condoms may as well be considered vitamins.

I don't really think that the cost of condoms and nonoxynol-9 is the problem here, as they aren't out of the price range of other things that teens can afford, regardless of economic status.

What I do think is fatally embarassing is the multitude of adults who are uncomfortable with a discussion about birth control, and a demonstration as you described. How can a parent expect their kid to not be embarrassed to take proper measures when they themselves are embarrassed about a simple discussion?

But that's just not enough, don't you see??? "Be responsible for yourself, wait for sex" doesn't play louder in the head than whatever's on the radio when teens are making out.

Nor do the facts of abortion regardless of legality seem to sway the Catholic Church nor any other anti-contraceptive religion. They don't seem to keep men from raping women in Africa, they don't seem to bother the men in the middle east who are never punished for the crime (nay, the women are if they claim it), etc.

Whoa. Hold on there, I am not saying that "be responsible for yourself" has to mean an abstance program. Of course, abstance should be included as a priority in these discussions, but being responsible goes far beyond simply "just saying no." And of course, this isn't the only answer. But I do think that teaching personal responsibility is a huge part of this.

In a world where adults are so quick to put the blame and point the finger to others for their own doing with mundane issues, how can we expect kids to take responsibility for their own bodies and sexual behavior and birth control? So I think that "personal responsibility" is a bigger factor here then we might want to admit.

I think what we all must do is challenge our beliefs and our suppositions and put them up against the facts.

Couldn't agree with that statement more...

 

[Cruentus]

OK, a couple of points, is it irresponsible of a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy to use abortion as a contraceptive? I don't see how a woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy is irresponsible now why it should even cast her in a light that would even hint at such.

Yes, I think that it is irresponsible for a woman to use abortion as contraceptive. If anything, for the simple fact of the medical risks or physical and psychological damage. Then if you throw in the idea that some people think that abortion is murder, that further complicates matters. I think that women who take abortion lightly and use it in lew of controceptive and taking proper birth control measures are being disrespectful to their own bodies, and disrespectful to women around the country who face real problems with this difficult choice.

Also, this might be a new thread topic, but I was wondering the other day just how much say a man has in this topic. What if he impregnates a woman, he wants her to have an abortion and she refuses? Or if she wants an abortion and he does not? Legally, doesn't the woman's body take precedence? How does that jive with man's rights and responsibility?

Just as a woman has certain responsibilities, and risks associated with her choices, the man has a different set of responsibilities and risks as well. The fact that it is the womans body, and not his, and that she has all the power of the decision once pregnant is simply a fact that the man has to deal with. Just as the woman has to deal with the fact that a man can ditch her in a time of need, the man has to deal with the fact that the woman can choose to have or not have an abortion regardless of his opinions.

 

[Big Don]

Abortion is not a contraceptive! Contraceptives PREVENT conception, abortion eliminates the result of conception. There is a difference there. Words have meanings.

 

[elder999]

Abortion is not a contraceptive! Contraceptives PREVENT conception, abortion eliminates the result of conception. There is a difference there. Words have meanings.

While I don't disagree with you in principle, contra is a Latin preposition meaning against.. WHile the conventional, accepted definition of "contraceptive" is something capable of preventing conception, the meaning of the word is literall "against conception," which abortion certainly is, just after the fact.

SInce you were saying that "Words have meanings," and all.....

If we substitute the words "birth control" for "contraceptive," though, we probably can say that "there are women who use abortion as a form of birth control.."