Leg training: Alternatives to squats?

[pdg]

I'm not sure if Mountain Bikes work the legs out in the same way. Mountain Bikes give you more room to move around in comparison to this type of bike

Mountain bike geometry lets you move the bike around under you more, the extra clarance afforded by the lower top tube lets you lean and sling the bike around.

A road bike with dropped bars gives you far more body position options. You can ride on the flat, on the hoods, mid drop, full drop, and places in between.

So an mtb is more critical in a way with setup of bar position (height and length) to avoid lower back pain.

some padded shorts

I detest padded shorts, and padded saddles.

I'll only use leather saddles (brooks mainly, that type) and seamless shorts/bottoms.

Any padding increases pressure on the perineum (your sit bones sink into the padding allowing the middle to rest on it, bad). If you must have padding, get things with a hole in the middle.

cycling shoes

You can push into the pedals in multiple directions. Except for backwards

Get SPD (mtb bias) or SPD SL (road bias) (shimano names) shoes and the pedals to go with them.

Then, you can do the traditional 'push' pedalling but you can also pull backwards and upwards without losing your footing.

IMO, clipless pedals (which is a stupid name, because the entire point is you clip into them, but I digress) are the best thing you can do. Not only do they hugely increase efficiency, they allow you to use muscle groups that are usually ignored with cycling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you get the same sort of feeling if you go down stairs backwards?

I could be well off with this thought, so anyone can point and laugh if they like...

The other week I did a load of different sorts of squats - for a few days after I had that feeling going downstairs (or actually just down a slope too) that my knees were just going to give in. Going down backwards, far less.

I think I've identified the issue for me - I wasn't engaging my glutes enough, so I was putting all the load onto my quads.

If you're alright doing squats, try clenching your cheeks throughout the range of movement in both directions...

I've not tried going down stairs backwards (I'm wondering if there's a story behind that discovery), but note that the sensation is not tied to a period following exercise. I get that sensation any time I go down stairs these days. It will likely diminish as temperatures warm up, but I suspect I'll not be without it at all this year.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, but you probably won't like it. Running. Running is great for the quadriceps and glutes. More specifically "Sprinting". Another great exercise which I like better than sprinting even though I did i competitively for 6 years, is Cycling. You'll need one of these, some padded shorts, and cycling shoes. All are worth it. Get one that is light weight you'll enjoy it more.

The benefit is that you you can engage all of the muscles of the legs when sitting. You can push into the pedals in multiple directions. Except for backwards. You can choose which muscles you engage. Don't get a stationary bike, it doesn't work the same as actually riding on the road. When you ride on the road your body's muscles are engaged to keep balance. Time also flies by faster so it doesn't seem like much of a work out. All you need is a nice large neighborhood or a road that doesn't have much traffic and an early Saturday Morning.

Edit: I'm not sure if Mountain Bikes work the legs out in the same way. Mountain Bikes give you more room to move around in comparison to this type of bike.

I actually like running. I've managed to get back into it, and hope to be up to running 5+ miles by mid-year (at which point I have a 10-mile mud run).

As for cycling, I keep thinking about getting into it, but it would be a mountain bike. I grew up with a bike with shocks (NOT light, by the way, and probably largely responsible for my leg strength at an early age), and I love being able to head off-road. I liked the toe clips when I had a 10-speed, but the roads around here really don't invite that - too hilly, and too many gravel roads to invite me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Any padding increases pressure on the perineum (your sit bones sink into the padding allowing the middle to rest on it, bad). If you must have padding, get things with a hole in the middle.

Unfortunately these seats didn't exist when I used to cycle. And you are right about the pressure. I have a leather seat with a minimum padding.
This is what my seat looks like. I had to learn how to sit on it to reduce the pressure. 4 hours on this thing. 3.5 hours spent adjusting the weight to reduce pressure. "clipless pedals" were the new thing when I used to cycle. I got great legs from it and it was easier to manage my weight as well. I'll take it up again in the near future, but I have no plan on bringing my old bike out of retirement. I definitely plan on taking advantage of the new tech.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've not tried going down stairs backwards

unfortunately there was a time where that was the only way I could get down the steps without pain or my knees giving out. Fortunately I met a guy from India that fixed all of that. At the time going down the steps backwards forced me to use a different set of muscles than going down the steps the right way. It was enjoyable as long as I was at home. I never had to do it in public.

Come to think of it, My knees only gave me problems certain times in the day. Mornings were better for me. Evenings not so much. I only remember my knees hurting at home and not at work. I guess I had fresh knees in the morning.

 

[JowGaWolf]

NOT light, by the way, and probably largely responsible for my leg strength at an early age

Yeah we grew up with the heavy bikes. Any bike before 1990 was expected to be heavy. As a matter of fact I don't remember too many light things back then lol. TV's were super heavy, bikes were heavy, shoes were heavy, all desks were heavy, chairs were heavy unless it was a lawn chair, those long wooden tables were heavy, bar stools were heavy. A lot of things back then were built to last.

 

[pdg]

I've not tried going down stairs backwards (I'm wondering if there's a story behind that discovery), but note that the sensation is not tied to a period following exercise. I get that sensation any time I go down stairs these days. It will likely diminish as temperatures warm up, but I suspect I'll not be without it at all this year.

The story behind my discovery of it was simply noticing it didn't happen going up forwards - different body position, so I tried it going down backwards.

Technically, yours is following exercise - the exercise of just being upright...

My historic knee issues improved after starting TKD, as I've said before, but they still appeared following squats and the like, and for years I've had lower back pain if I stood for any extended period.

The last month or so I've been consciously trying to keep my glutes and abs lightly tensed all the time and the back pain has reduced significantly (I only get it now if I slouch), which I attribute to a better positioning of my pelvis. Almost as a side effect it's changed the loading on my knees.


Disclaimer: I'm certainly no expert on muscular structure so I could be entirely wrong, but this is my experience with my body...

 

[pdg]

Unfortunately these seats didn't exist when I used to cycle.

The type with the hole?

Me neither...

I have tried them, but I still prefer the old fashioned plain unpadded leather saddles, like:



That.

People look at or touch those, notice they're as hard as wood and get scared - but once broken in (like with leather shoes) they contour to your shape.

I can literally sit on my ones all day without discomfort.

They're not cheap, they require maintenance (tension, feeding, don't let them sit wet, other stuff) and you have to endure a bit of pain/chafing while you break them in, but I wouldn't go back to a padded saddle.


As for heavy bikes - one of my favourite bikes for pottering about on is a 3 speed 1950s Raleigh Sports, the type that Raleigh had to fit a different chain guard to so it was under a taxation class to export to the US (home market had fully enclosed chains, US export models didn't). It's not nearly as fast or efficient as my newer bikes, but it's just comfy and compliant.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah we grew up with the heavy bikes. Any bike before 1990 was expected to be heavy. As a matter of fact I don't remember too many light things back then lol. TV's were super heavy, bikes were heavy, shoes were heavy, all desks were heavy, chairs were heavy unless it was a lawn chair, those long wooden tables were heavy, bar stools were heavy. A lot of things back then were built to last.

True. And this bike was even heavier. It was made to look like a motorcycle, and had heavy tubular frame. One-speed, so no help on the hills. Big, clunky shocks front and rear, and a big, long motorcycle seat. It even had those number panels like 70's-era dirt bikes had. I could pop one off and stuff a coat inside the "gas tank" from below. It weighed about twice what my brother's Schwinn 3-speed weighed. I was a fairly timid child, but my brother (and others who knew me well enough at the time) tell me I was a fearless soul on that bike.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The story behind my discovery of it was simply noticing it didn't happen going up forwards - different body position, so I tried it going down backwards.

That's a shame. I had a whole scene brewing in my head - something from an episode of "Three's Company", perhaps. You'd walked up some stairs (grumbling to yourself about your knees). As you neared the top, you saw Jack with some guy, saying things you could misinterpret (yeah, you're Mr. Farley), and you quietly tiptoed backwards down the steps - pausing midway to note that your knees no longer bother you. For the rest of the episode, you were backing down stairs into rooms, creating just enough time for people to disentangle as you entered the scene.

 

[pdg]

That's a shame. I had a whole scene brewing in my head - something from an episode of "Three's Company", perhaps. You'd walked up some stairs (grumbling to yourself about your knees). As you neared the top, you saw Jack with some guy, saying things you could misinterpret (yeah, you're Mr. Farley), and you quietly tiptoed backwards down the steps - pausing midway to note that your knees no longer bother you. For the rest of the episode, you were backing down stairs into rooms, creating just enough time for people to disentangle as you entered the scene.

No, sorry, far more mundane

 

[IvanTheBrick]

I'm looking for some alternative to squats (and lunges) that may or may not exist. My knees hate them, and I suspect my problem means I don't have a good alternative, but I thought I'd reach out to folks here for ideas. Here's the issue - my knees "give out" on the way down in squats. By "give out" I mean, something nervy happens, and the muscles just stop working. It's noticeable even in body-weight squats (and walking down stairs), and becomes a real issue somewhere under 100 lbs of added weight. Note that I can still lift a signficant amount (not sure how much), but can't lower it.

So, for those with more knowledge, any ideas on how to keep quadriceps and glutes from losing mass? I've been using a rowing machine a lot, because there's no resistance on the compression ("lowering"), and I can put a fair amount of force into the extension.

I am an ex-competitive swimmer, I had just made it to regional level before I quit. Swimming is a great way to train every part of your body, especially the legs and back. Moreover, because of the water temperature and floating, you lose more fat as your body compensates calories to sustain your core body temperature for optimal performance in enzymes and so forth, and you are less prone to injury. You will be training cardio and many other muscles, but you might get weird positioning of your muscles if they aren't too defined yet...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am an ex-competitive swimmer, I had just made it to regional level before I quit. Swimming is a great way to train every part of your body, especially the legs and back. Moreover, because of the water temperature and floating, you lose more fat as your body compensates calories to sustain your core body temperature for optimal performance in enzymes and so forth, and you are less prone to injury. You will be training cardio and many other muscles, but you might get weird positioning of your muscles if they aren't too defined yet...

I've considered swimming many times in my past. I'd probably enjoy it, except for two things. First (and perhaps most important) I find swimming laps boring. It shouldn't be any more boring than a rowing machine, but it bores me. Maybe only because I have to think about it while doing it - I never built a rhythm for swimming distance. Secondly, I've never figured out that flip-turn thing, so I end up stopping every half-lap, grabbing the wall, turning around, setting up, and pushing off to the next half-lap.

I think I need a swimming track. You know, a big donut-shaped pool I can swim round laps in.

 

[IvanTheBrick]

If you wish, I don't know if it's possible if not I can give you my contact details, you can PM me and I can help you understand the "flippy thing" called a tumble-turn. Moreover, the best way to keep swimming interesting is through sprints rather than classic stamina. Time yourself using a clock on the wall etc, and try to improve each time. If you want a challenge, I encourage you to attempt to achieve 50m Freestyle below 30s. It should certainly be easy with enough dedication as you are coming from a martial arts background because you will have a strong physique.

 

[pdg]

I've considered swimming many times in my past. I'd probably enjoy it, except for two things

Funnily enough, I have two things that make me think I wouldn't enjoy it.

1. I really don't like being in water, it's a whole thing.

2. Probably because of 1, I have developed a special technique, I call it "sinking and flailing".


My kids like swimming, so I'm compelled to go, but it's far from an enjoyable experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Funnily enough, I have two things that make me think I wouldn't enjoy it.

1. I really don't like being in water, it's a whole thing.

2. Probably because of 1, I have developed a special technique, I call it "sinking and flailing".


My kids like swimming, so I'm compelled to go, but it's far from an enjoyable experience.

I haven't worked on that technique much. Does it take practice to master?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I was hoping to try out some of the suggestions while I was at the gym today. I did not. My knees were being bastards (even had to cut my rowing time short), so I didn't even consider any weighted activities. There are no stair stepper machines at the gym (used to be, but apparently I'm not the only one not using them).

I did walk backwards down the steps on the way out. A different discomfort in the knees, but I can't be sure if it's an all-the-time thing, or because my knees are bastards today.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you wish, I don't know if it's possible if not I can give you my contact details, you can PM me and I can help you understand the "flippy thing" called a tumble-turn. Moreover, the best way to keep swimming interesting is through sprints rather than classic stamina. Time yourself using a clock on the wall etc, and try to improve each time. If you want a challenge, I encourage you to attempt to achieve 50m Freestyle below 30s. It should certainly be easy with enough dedication as you are coming from a martial arts background because you will have a strong physique.

PM Sent.

 

[pdg]

I haven't worked on that technique much. Does it take practice to master?

Well, it's taken me a good 40 years to get this far...

 

[Ironbear24]

There is yoga, there is a particular type of push up I do where I fold your leg under your other leg, think of like your trying to make a large number 4. You do push up while doing that.