Learning to take strikes

[Tez3]

Sometimes what is abusive can be a matter of perspective...

Sometimes though it's as obvious as the nose on your face. The video in the OP is obviously wrong for a couple of reasons, the youth of the person being hit and the fact that someone thinks it's fine to actually just keep punching someone who isn't defending themselves. As an MMA ref I would stop a fight if one of the fighters was not intelligently defending themselves. No one should be thinking punching someone who cannot or even will not defend themselves is right.

I've never seen or heard of an initiation that was designed to somehow not abuse or at the very least humiliate the person undergoing it. At best it's pointless, at worse it's abuse.

 

[geezer]

I've never seen or heard of an initiation that was designed to somehow not abuse or at the very least humiliate the person undergoing it. At best it's pointless, at worse it's abuse.

Baptism, confirmation in the church (COE or Catholic), a Bar Mitzvah, swearing an oath of loyalty to the armed services or for citizenship in a country??? These are all examples of rites of initiation and/or passage, and none are abusive. Clearly you are refering to initiatory hazing. That is something different.

 

[drop bear]

Not really. I agree with the distinction between a 15 year old and 16 year old. But training someone to fight back is very different than training someone to take abuse. And it's not just a moral high ground, there is a distinct difference between the two. Which is what they are doing in the video that started this discussion.

Training which to a degree we all do.

I am not a neurologist or a behavioral specialist. What makes my training more justified than theirs?

 

[Tez3]

a Bar Mitzvah,

Absolutely not an initiation, it is a celebration of becoming someone who follows the Commandments, The obligations and responsibilities become theirs whether there is a formal celebration or not so is not an initiation merely a celebration if one wishes to have one. The ceremony, which is a fairly new one, does not make one a bar mitzvah, it just marks the time when one becomes a “son/daughter of the commandments.” The real meaning of the phrase is not “son or daughter of the commandments” but “one of the commandments” in the sense of “one who is responsible for performing the commandments”.

An oath of loyalty/allegiance is just that.... an oath.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Absolutely not an initiation, it is a celebration of becoming someone who follows the Commandments, The obligations and responsibilities become theirs whether there is a formal celebration or not so is not an initiation merely a celebration if one wishes to have one. The ceremony, which is a fairly new one, does not make one a bar mitzvah, it just marks the time when one becomes a “son/daughter of the commandments.” The real meaning of the phrase is not “son or daughter of the commandments” but “one of the commandments” in the sense of “one who is responsible for performing the commandments”.

An oath of loyalty/allegiance is just that.... an oath.

So from google, basically every definition of initiation I found indicates that it's an act of recognizing someone as part of your group/society. So a celebration of someone joining a religious society would absolutely fall under that. Even if they did nothing besides exist on the earth for one more day than they had before (and from what I remember from my jewish friends, had to attend a school, and then read/understand hebrew to a certain extent). By the definitions I found for inititation, signing an agreement/publicly stating you would abide by specific rules/policies/morals, would count as that.

Hazing is a very different thing than initiation, and I agree that hazing is where the issues come from, that could be considered abuse.

 

[Tez3]

. So a celebration of someone joining a religious society would absolutely fall under that. Even if they did nothing besides exist on the earth for one more day than they had before (and from what I remember from my jewish friends, had to attend a school, and then read/understand hebrew to a certain extent). By the definitions I found for inititation, signing an agreement/publicly stating you would abide by specific rules/policies/morals, would count as that.

it's not a' joining the community' at all one is part of it at 13 whether one has a Bar Mitzvah or not, this isn't my 'opinion' by the way. The Bar Mitvah is the ceremony celebrating a boy becoming 13 which he will whether he has the ceremony of not.
"The bar mitzvah is automatic, whether or not a celebration or special ceremony is held. But since becoming a bar mitzvah is such an important milestone and joyous occasion, we make a point of celebrating together with family and friends."
Bar Mitzvah: When It Is and How to Celebrate - What you need to know about reaching the age of bar mitzvah

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

it's not a' joining the community' at all one is part of it at 13 whether one has a Bar Mitzvah or not, this isn't my 'opinion' by the way. The Bar Mitvah is the ceremony celebrating a boy becoming 13 which he will whether he has the ceremony of not.
"The bar mitzvah is automatic, whether or not a celebration or special ceremony is held. But since becoming a bar mitzvah is such an important milestone and joyous occasion, we make a point of celebrating together with family and friends."
Bar Mitzvah: When It Is and How to Celebrate - What you need to know about reaching the age of bar mitzvah

So that article differs from people whom I know that completed a Bar Mitzvah (by chance I know a lot of jewish people, since the community I grew up in was over 50% jewish). From what I understand from them, they had to complete a fairly easy study program with a rabbim, and on their bar mitzvah had to read a passage from the torah. Now, as I'm not jewish I don't know if that's actually necessary or not, but I was told by mutliple jewish friends that it was.

In a similar vein, as a lutheran, myself and my peers had to participate in a ceremony to be considered confirmed, which involved us reading a part of the bible. This was an initiation for us, which we had to complete as part of our community. Before my pastor would confirm us, we had to attend church a certain number of times, write/discuss those services, and also take classes about the bible, then pass tests to confirm our knowledge (the idea is that you would not confirm youself to a religion you didn't understand). None of what occurred was inappropriate, no one was forced to do anything and there was no negative effect on any of us.

But upon completing it, there was a ceremony where we invited our family and friends, answered questions in public, and read/discussed a meaningful passage of the bible. That absolutely was an initiation that we all went through, but there was no abuse/humiliation involved.

 

[dvcochran]

Absolutely not an initiation, it is a celebration of becoming someone who follows the Commandments, The obligations and responsibilities become theirs whether there is a formal celebration or not so is not an initiation merely a celebration if one wishes to have one. The ceremony, which is a fairly new one, does not make one a bar mitzvah, it just marks the time when one becomes a “son/daughter of the commandments.” The real meaning of the phrase is not “son or daughter of the commandments” but “one of the commandments” in the sense of “one who is responsible for performing the commandments”.

An oath of loyalty/allegiance is just that.... an oath.

In regards to the word 'initiation', that is laced with about as much semantics as could be put in a paragraph.

 

[Tez3]

Now, as I'm not jewish I don't know if that's actually necessary or not, but I was told by mutliple jewish friends that it was.

In Jewish Law when one reaches 13 for a boy and 12 for a girl, one is automatically Bar/Bat Mitzvah's, that's the Law, as the article from Chabad says we like to make a performance of it, a celebration, we like to show our children off, that they can read etc. basically to make it an occasion to remember but it's not an initiation because under Jewish Law one is Bar/Bat Mitzvah anyway even without all the reading, parties, etc. The ceremonies are a way of showing happiness and gratitude that the boy or girl is now adult enough to take on responsibilities.

About Bar/Bat Mitzvah | My Jewish Learning

The Laws of Bar Mitzvah - Parshat Vayishlach

Bar and Bat Mitzvah

 

[Tez3]

hat absolutely was an initiation that we all went through, but there was no abuse/humiliation involved.

I will point out that I did say in my experience of initiations there was nothing good about them at all. You can disagree with me of course but you can't disagree with the fact that all the initiations I've had to deal with have been bad so am of course more than biased towards those who think initiations such as the one in the OP are fine.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I will point out that I did say in my experience of initiations there was nothing good about them at all. You can disagree with me of course but you can't disagree with the fact that all the initiations I've had to deal with have been bad so am of course more than biased towards those who think initiations such as the one in the OP are fine.

I think y only disagreement is over the definition of “initiation “. In many schools, there’s a sense of entering a new “brotherhood” (for lack of a better word) upon achieving BB rank. Thus, some sort of initiation ritual often accompanies it. Many other pursuits also have that. Your description of bar mitzvah would fit the joining of a new group (that of the bar mitzvahs) within the Jewish community, and the rituals/celebrations surrounding it would qualify as an initiation to that group, by the wider definition.

 

[Tez3]

Your description of bar mitzvah would fit the joining of a new group (that of the bar mitzvahs) within the Jewish community, and the rituals/celebrations surrounding it would qualify as an initiation to that group, by the wider definition.

Ok but how would a Bar/Bat Mitzvah be an initiation if it happens automatically and whether one wanted it or not? If you want a Jewish initiation that would be the Bris. Now that will cause plenty of arguments so I am not commenting on that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok but how would a Bar/Bat Mitzvah be an initiation if it happens automatically and whether one wanted it or not? If you want a Jewish initiation that would be the Bris. Now that will cause plenty of arguments so I am not commenting on that.

I said the ritual/celebration would be an initiation. The actual bar/bat mitzvah is what is being celebrated.

 

[Tez3]

I said the ritual/celebration would be an initiation. The actual bar/bat mitzvah is what is being celebrated.

I did say that what people see as the 'lessons', the 'reading', the party and the very important presents are all celebrations. You can't have an initiation if it happens anyway whether you want it to or not. If you don't want all the fuss and do nothing at all, you will be Bar Mitzvah just the same, just one without aunts kissing you, sisters in law complaining about the food and the fountain pen presents. In some cultures there is a celebration when a girl gets her first menstrual period, it's not an initiation though as it will happen anyway.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I did say that what people see as the 'lessons', the 'reading', the party and the very important presents are all celebrations. You can't have an initiation if it happens anyway whether you want it to or not. If you don't want all the fuss and do nothing at all, you will be Bar Mitzvah just the same, just one without aunts kissing you, sisters in law complaining about the food and the fountain pen presents. In some cultures there is a celebration when a girl gets her first menstrual period, it's not an initiation though as it will happen anyway.

Yes. That's why I said the celebration is an initiation.

 

[Tez3]

Yes. That's why I said the celebration is an initiation.

I'm sorry I can't see that, it's merely a celebration, would you call every birthday you have an initiation? Is every wedding anniversary an initiation? The Bar Mitzvah happens whether you celebrate or not so are you saying if they don't have the celebration/'initiation' they aren't Bar Mitzvah?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm sorry I can't see that, it's merely a celebration, would you call every birthday you have an initiation? Is every wedding anniversary an initiation? The Bar Mitzvah happens whether you celebrate or not so are you saying if they don't have the celebration/'initiation' they aren't Bar Mitzvah?

In the cases of birthdays and wedding anniversaries, they aren't joining a distinct new subgroup (like "blackbelts"). I'm not sure why you go back to the thing about the Bar Mitzvah being automatic, since I'm talking about the celebration, not the Bar Mitzvah itself. It's possible to join a group/subgroup without an initiation to specifically mark it.

So, if someone's 80th birthday were celebrated specially by a group of octagenarians, then I suppose that could be considered an initiation into that subgroup. It's not a standard usage of the term, but it would fit the definition.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not sure why you go back to the thing about the Bar Mitzvah being automatic, since I'm talking about the celebration, not the Bar Mitzvah itself

I say that because the Bar Mitzvah is the 'thing' not the celebration, that's a modern add on and really just the fluff as opposed to the point which the reaching of the age 12/13 as that's the important thing. Something that may not have made a lot of sense in modern times when children usually survive but is looking much more understandable with this virus, although it's not so dangerous to most young people.


All a bit academic now I'm afraid, all the synagogues have closed for the foreseeable future so no parties. My husband and I ( both in at risk group) are in what they are calling 'social distancing', just going out when necessary. I'm a social person, if I can't train, take Guides, go to the cinema etc I'm not going to be happy lol. They have even closed the seating areas in McDs, drive through only! I have plenty to occupy myself, can go for walks (but sometimes I want to chat to people not sheep) and of course there's debating on here to keep my mind alert, so while some may think this is about semantics it's more than that, it's helping to beat the isolation!!! So thank you. I mean it

 

[geezer]

In Jewish Law when one reaches 13 for a boy and 12 for a girl, one is automatically Bar/Bat Mitzvah's, that's the Law, as the article from Chabad says we like to make a performance of it, a celebration, we like to show our children off, that they can read etc. basically to make it an occasion to remember but it's not an initiation because under Jewish Law one is Bar/Bat Mitzvah anyway even without all the reading, parties, etc. The ceremonies are a way of showing happiness and gratitude that the boy or girl is now adult enough to take on responsibilities.

About Bar/Bat Mitzvah | My Jewish Learning

The Laws of Bar Mitzvah - Parshat Vayishlach

Bar and Bat Mitzvah

All a matter of perspective. I'm sure my understanding of such things is out of date, but when I pursued my university degree in Social Anthropology decades ago, such "celebrations" were called rites of passage, and broadly speaking, functioned ...in this cas, for example, to confirm the youth's acceptance into the group or tribe as an adult. Rites of passage often include physical trials and/or hazing (the Dakota Sun Dance, the Austrailian aboriginal "walkabout", or the circumcision rites of the Kalenjin, to name a few), but not always. Most modern initiations and rites of passage are, like you said, celebratory in nature.

I later went on to study other disciplines and a career in teaching visual arts, and so my understanding of such terms is probably not current. Perhaps today the term initiation can no longer mean being ceremonially welcomed into a group, or into a new, more elite status within a group. Perhaps nowdays it specifically means cruel rituals involving hazing and torture. Sorry if I'm out of touch!

 

[geezer]

Interestingly, I think my apparent misunderstanding? ...of a Bar Mitzvah as both a celebration and rite of passage probably comes from Rabbi Nobel who was also a professor at my college (U.S. usage, meaning a school within the University, or -in this case- a small institution at the level of the university but without extensive post-graduate programs).

It's been ages, and I'm certain I've forgotten the nuances. But he told us that "coming of age" at 13 was the mitzvah or rightious act, but the celebration, both within the synagogue and the party that followed, fell squarely into the description of a rite of passage, socially affirming the young man's status as an adult member of the congregation.

OK, he probably didn't say "synagogue". He probably said "temple" since he was a Reform Rabbi. Do they even have Reform congregations in the UK?

Well Good G-D! As you would write it, I'm so out of touch with religion in my life these days ....kinda odd...especially for a guy who began a double major in Anthropology and Religious Studies, back in the 70s!!! And with a passing interest in some phony version of Shao-lin Chuan that was way heavy on the wuxia stuff. Eventually I shifted into Wing Chun and Escrima, which although not considered very practical today, were really hard core and down to earth by comparison to what I trained previously. Now I'm even agnostic about that! I'll probably die godless and alone. But hopefully not today, and not of coronaviris.