Learning to take strikes

[Tez3]

Initiations can be parties.

Lol if your parties are like that can I have an invite, after we come out of isolation of course.

@gpseymour is the absolute last person on this forum I would expect to try and wind anyone up.

and you are the last person to have a sense of humour, you obviously didn't see it as the joke it was. I'd already said that conversing with him was keeping me sane while stuck indoors.

A ritual that admits you in to a group.

A Bar Mitzvah doesn't admit you into Judaism though, you are already in when you are born. As I said if you want a ritual look at the Bris.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A Bar Mitzvah doesn't admit you into Judaism though, you are already in when you are born. As I said if you want a ritual look at the Bris.

This is where my reference to BB came in. The Bar Mitzvah is their entry to a sub-group (I've forgotten the term you used for that group/status). The same is true of BB - the person has been a member of the MA community and that school/art for some time. Now they're a member of the "yudansha", which is just a subgroup within the larger community they already belonged to.

 

[Tez3]

This is where my reference to BB came in. The Bar Mitzvah is their entry to a sub-group (I've forgotten the term you used for that group/status). The same is true of BB - the person has been a member of the MA community and that school/art for some time. Now they're a member of the "yudansha", which is just a subgroup within the larger community they already belonged to.

Yes and no, it you are talking subgroups in Judaism, there is as many of them as there are individuals, despite what none Jews think we aren't actually an organised religion, while we say the boy needs to be 13 to take up the religious responsibilities and rights of being a man, it's not actually necessary as he can do that before 13. We were born being complicated. The current celebration was only started in the 19th century and many liberal Jews have done away with it altogether. Ultra Orthodox, the Chasidism, have their own ways. My Big Fat Hasidic Bar Mitzvah - Atlanta Jewish Times

 

[skribs]

and you are the last person to have a sense of humour, you obviously didn't see it as the joke it was. I'd already said that conversing with him was keeping me sane while stuck indoors.

You're right, I didn't see it. Because I don't read most of your posts.

 

[Yokozuna514]

A ritual that admits you in to a group.

Now that kumite is a ritual. And once you have done it you join the very exclusive group of people who have done a kumite.

Now it is not done to harass or demean but to uplift that person. To push them to be a better person basically.

I am not certain you could refer to kumite as a ritual. Aside from the bowing at the beginning of the kumite the rest is a free form contest. The bowing would be similar to the ref meeting at the beginning of a boxing match. Unless you are referring to that as also being a ritual, which I suppose it could be, that would be the only ritualistic part I could see but to be clear that is a very small part of the boxing match (or kumite for Kyokushin) so equating one with or the other as a ritual is not really painting an accurate picture.

I do agree that once you have done Knockdown karate you join a very exclusive group of people who have a desire to fight with bare knuckles and kicks to the head but to use just the word kumite is not quite accurate. Kumite, as you probably know, means sparring which many styles of karate do to a greater or lesser extent. Kyokushin is much more known for jiyu kumite or free form sparring. Sanbon kumite (or three step sparring) is much more ritualistic in nature but this type of sparring is not unique to Kyokushin. I actually don't know many Kyokushin dojos that use sanbon kumite to any extent. I am sure it happens but Kyokushin is not known for it.

Again, not to derail your conversation about rituals and initiations but Kyokushin kumite is probably not the best example of ritualist sparring however I do suppose a person's first Kyokushin jiyu kumite could be called an initiation into a school of 'hard knocks'.

 

[Tez3]

You're right, I didn't see it. Because I don't read most of your posts.

Oh but you do and attack me for them frequently. As you did with the comments you made above.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am not certain you could refer to kumite as a ritual. Aside from the bowing at the beginning of the kumite the rest is a free form contest. The bowing would be similar to the ref meeting at the beginning of a boxing match. Unless you are referring to that as also being a ritual, which I suppose it could be, that would be the only ritualistic part I could see but to be clear that is a very small part of the boxing match (or kumite for Kyokushin) so equating one with or the other as a ritual is not really painting an accurate picture.

I do agree that once you have done Knockdown karate you join a very exclusive group of people who have a desire to fight with bare knuckles and kicks to the head but to use just the word kumite is not quite accurate. Kumite, as you probably know, means sparring which many styles of karate do to a greater or lesser extent. Kyokushin is much more known for jiyu kumite or free form sparring. Sanbon kumite (or three step sparring) is much more ritualistic in nature but this type of sparring is not unique to Kyokushin. I actually don't know many Kyokushin dojos that use sanbon kumite to any extent. I am sure it happens but Kyokushin is not known for it.

Again, not to derail your conversation about rituals and initiations but Kyokushin kumite is probably not the best example of ritualist sparring however I do suppose a person's first Kyokushin jiyu kumite could be called an initiation into a school of 'hard knocks'.

It's the placement/timing of it that's a ritual, of sorts. It's not prescribed, but it fits the loose definition of ritual in that sense.

 

[Tez3]

It's the placement/timing of it that's a ritual, of sorts. It's not prescribed, but it fits the loose definition of ritual in that sense.

If you look at it that way life is a series of rituals.

 

[Yokozuna514]

It's the placement/timing of it that's a ritual, of sorts. It's not prescribed, but it fits the loose definition of ritual in that sense.

It sounds like you are saying all forms of contests (martial or otherwise) are a ritual. That's a very 'loose' definition of ritual .

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It sounds like you are saying all forms of contests (martial or otherwise) are a ritual. That's a very 'loose' definition of ritual .

I can't see that. If I go to a competition, there may be some ritual in it (bows and such), but I can't see where the event would qualify as a ritual, as there's no special significance to it. The Kyokushin kumite is specifically a rite of passage in the system, and has special significance. If they did exactly the same thing on sporadic occasions with no special significance, those would not seem to fit the definition of ritual.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I can't see that. If I go to a competition, there may be some ritual in it (bows and such), but I can't see where the event would qualify as a ritual, as there's no special significance to it. The Kyokushin kumite is specifically a rite of passage in the system, and has special significance. If they did exactly the same thing on sporadic occasions with no special significance, those would not seem to fit the definition of ritual.

Ok, so not all contests are rituals, I think we agree there but now it would seem as you are saying that Kyokushin kumite is now a rite of passage ? Are you saying that rituals = rites of passage then ?

I do agree that Kyokushin kumite has a special significance to the people that participate in them. Where we differ is that I do not agree that it is any more of a ritual or a rite of passage than someone entering their first boxing match.

Belt ceremonies are much more ritualistic in nature. I would suggest that would be a better example to use than Kyokushin kumite. That may fit the context of your discussion better but not every belt ceremony is celebrated nor an initiation into anything other than the next level of training in that system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok, so not all contests are rituals, I think we agree there but now it would seem as you are saying that Kyokushin kumite is now a rite of passage ? Are you saying that rituals = rites of passage then ?

Most rites of passage probably qualify as rituals. Not all rituals qualify as a rite of passage, particularly not those that are repeated over time (many religious rituals, for instance).

I do agree that Kyokushin kumite has a special significance to the people that participate in them. Where we differ is that I do not agree that it is any more of a ritual or a rite of passage than someone entering their first boxing match.

I think you're right that both are a rite of passage. But there's no difference in approach (for everyone else involved) at a first boxing match. For the most part, it's just a boxing match that happens to have a rookie in it. The 100-man kumite is (so far as I know) a one-time thing, and the cultural significance (within the Kyokushin community) is what makes it different.

Belt ceremonies are much more ritualistic in nature. I would suggest that would be a better example to use than Kyokushin kumite. That may fit the context of your discussion better but not every belt ceremony is celebrated nor an initiation into anything other than the next level of training in that system.

I definitely agree that a belt ceremony is a clearer example of a ritual, where there is much ritual around it. It'd be debatable whether my awarding a yellow belt via simulated strangulation (yes, that's how they typically get it) is a ritual or not. Certainly my primary instructor had a ritual around it, with a more formal approach than usual.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Most rites of passage probably qualify as rituals. Not all rituals qualify as a rite of passage, particularly not those that are repeated over time (many religious rituals, for instance).


I think you're right that both are a rite of passage. But there's no difference in approach (for everyone else involved) at a first boxing match. For the most part, it's just a boxing match that happens to have a rookie in it. The 100-man kumite is (so far as I know) a one-time thing, and the cultural significance (within the Kyokushin community) is what makes it different.


I definitely agree that a belt ceremony is a clearer example of a ritual, where there is much ritual around it. It'd be debatable whether my awarding a yellow belt via simulated strangulation (yes, that's how they typically get it) is a ritual or not. Certainly my primary instructor had a ritual around it, with a more formal approach than usual.

Well I think that is where you and Tez may have been hung up. To say that most rites of passage qualify as rituals is not necessarily true unless you consider how the rite of passage is performed. Turning 12 or 13 years old is considered a rite of passage into adulthood in many cultures however the event itself "waking up one day and being one year older" has nothing ritualistic about it. It may not be any different than waking up the day before. Gathering the family or community to publicly attest to becoming 12 or 13 may have some ritualistic ceremonies attached but there are also many 12 and 13 year olds that do not have these gatherings or celebrations but that doesn't change the fact that they have become 12 or 13 years old.

I suppose to be clear it is in the way you celebrate these occasions that will qualify if it can be considered to be a ritual or not. That may be the distinction that Tez was making. It is the distinction I am trying to make.

I suppose you could make a ritual of awarding a yellow belt via simulated strangulation. There are many rituals that are very esoteric and meaningful only to those that are initiated in their respective MA.

The 100 man kumite is something else completely and I am not sure it is relevant to this discussion as it is an event that very few people even try to attempt within our own community. I would not think it would be considered a 'rite of passage' in this sense. It is a very exclusive club especially for the people that have completed it but 'ritual' or 'rite of passage' would not be a good descriptor.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well I think that is where you and Tez may have been hung up. To say that most rites of passage qualify as rituals is not necessarily true unless you consider how the rite of passage is performed. Turning 12 or 13 years old is considered a rite of passage into adulthood in many cultures however the event itself "waking up one day and being one year older" has nothing ritualistic about it. It may not be any different than waking up the day before. Gathering the family or community to publicly attest to becoming 12 or 13 may have some ritualistic ceremonies attached but there are also many 12 and 13 year olds that do not have these gatherings or celebrations but that doesn't change the fact that they have become 12 or 13 years old.

I'm not sure there's anything in turning 12 or 13 that would really qualify as a "rite", as I understand it. But let's assume they do. Those would be examples of rites that don't match the idea of ritual, which is why I said "most", rather than "all".

I suppose to be clear it is in the way you celebrate these occasions that will qualify if it can be considered to be a ritual or not. That may be the distinction that Tez was making. It is the distinction I am trying to make.

Honestly, as far as I can tell, Tez and I were talking at cross purposes. She was making a point about something she thought I was saying, so just a miscommunication.

I suppose you could make a ritual of awarding a yellow belt via simulated strangulation. There are many rituals that are very esoteric and meaningful only to those that are initiated in their respective MA.

If I'd given enough of them so they expected it, it might come to qualify. Fortunately, it's like the Spanish Inquisition.

The 100 man kumite is something else completely and I am not sure it is relevant to this discussion as it is an event that very few people even try to attempt within our own community. I would not think it would be considered a 'rite of passage' in this sense. It is a very exclusive club especially for the people that have completed it but 'ritual' or 'rite of passage' would not be a good descriptor.

That point about it being "a very exclusive club" was actually the point. But we're still dickering over the definition of ritual, which really isn't all that important.

 

[Yokozuna514]

That point about it being "a very exclusive club" was actually the point. But we're still dickering over the definition of ritual, which really isn't all that important.

I think the 'dickering' is the result of some of the terms you are using to describe a style you are not currently practicing are considered (by one of the practitioners of that style) as inaccurate. Similarly, I suppose Tez was simply pointing out the same situation existed when you were using terms to describe a bar/bat mitzvah. Tez being from that culture, I would think, would have a better understanding of the accuracies of your statements. I do believe, and she can correct me if I am wrong, that was all she was trying to do. The 'dickering' hence comes when you are trying to explain or justify what you were saying as still being 'accurate' in some sense. I would agree, that is definitely dickering.

In any event, I do not think there is much point of discussing how the use of the term 'a very exclusive club' does or does not equate to a 'ritual'. It certainly has no bearing on learning to take strikes which we focus on quite a bit in Kyokushin but I do not know any dojos that would condone the methods used in the opening video.

 

[Tez3]

She was making a point about something she thought I was saying, so just a miscommunication.

That's unfair as you were misunderstanding my point and kept talking about something else. I was talking about something I know inside out and backwards but you were telling me I was wrong.

Yokozuna is completely correct. thank you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's unfair as you were misunderstanding my point and kept talking about something else. I was talking about something I know inside out and backwards but you were telling me I was wrong.

Yokozuna is completely correct. thank you.

You were talking about my posts about the topic. And I was referring to the celebration, not the Bar Mitzvah. I said on more than one occasion I agreed that the Bar Mitzvah - as you explained it to me - is not a ritual. You replied more than once that the Bar Mitzvah isn't a ritual.

Hence my take that there was a miscommunication.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the 'dickering' is the result of some of the terms you are using to describe a style you are not currently practicing are considered (by one of the practitioners of that style) as inaccurate. Similarly, I suppose Tez was simply pointing out the same situation existed when you were using terms to describe a bar/bat mitzvah. Tez being from that culture, I would think, would have a better understanding of the accuracies of your statements. I do believe, and she can correct me if I am wrong, that was all she was trying to do. The 'dickering' hence comes when you are trying to explain or justify what you were saying as still being 'accurate' in some sense. I would agree, that is definitely dickering.

In any event, I do not think there is much point of discussing how the use of the term 'a very exclusive club' does or does not equate to a 'ritual'. It certainly has no bearing on learning to take strikes which we focus on quite a bit in Kyokushin but I do not know any dojos that would condone the methods used in the opening video.

Okay, you know what, it was a simple point based on some pretty simply concepts, in a pretty unimportant side-point. If you want to argue, go ahead. I'm still not sure what you're arguing about.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Okay, you know what, it was a simple point based on some pretty simply concepts, in a pretty unimportant side-point. If you want to argue, go ahead. I'm still not sure what you're arguing about.

I'm not arguing with you, just simply pointing out that Kyokushin kumite is neither a ritual, rite of passage or exclusive club as you seemed to have said. Nothing personal and if you simply acknowledge that the point you were trying to make was inaccurate, neither Tez nor I would have said any more on the subject.

 

[Tez3]

You were talking about my posts about the topic. And I was referring to the celebration, not the Bar Mitzvah. I said on more than one occasion I agreed that the Bar Mitzvah - as you explained it to me - is not a ritual. You replied more than once that the Bar Mitzvah isn't a ritual.

Hence my take that there was a miscommunication.

The 'celebration' isn't a ritual, it's just a party, some have one some don't. Parties are just parties, we have them particularly ones with food because times have been very hard, are still hard for many and we celebrate when we can, which in the UK at least will not be for a very long time, we are now in lockdown, no more than two people outside together, no leaving homes unless for food, medical reasons or for essential works, the police are to enforce this. I'm sure people will moan but it has to be done, it was voluntary but too many people ignored the advice and now it's law.