Learn 7-17x faster with private lessons?

[KenpoDave]

Also, you're the one that said that a black belt in 1.25 years wasn't too fast, and now you're back tracking saying that the students that are ready to test are arbitrarily held back for the slower students to be ready. That begs the question: "Why the privates then?" What is the benifit of learning faster if you just have to wait around for the rest of the slow-pokes anyways?

No, Dan, again, you're making stuff up. I have heard of and taken martial arts in OTHER programs that arbitrarily hold students back until the next test date. Ours allows students to progress at their own rate.

 

[KenpoDave]

See that's the crux of this whole silly thing. Why not say that they can accelerate one's learning up to 17 times faster?

Wouldn't matter. You would still make up words and change what was said. That is really the crux of this whole silly thing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There you go making stuff up again. You keep inserting words like "make" and "will." There is a potential here of learning 7-17 times faster.

I know I said I was out of this but as I follow this from the sidelines I find I am getting more confused.

If it is not "will" or if you are not saying with private lessons you will learn 7 - 17 times faster or it will make you learn 7 - 17 times faster then you are left with private lessons you might learn 7 to 17 times faster and if that is it "might" again what is the point of 7 - 17 times faster. It might not as well it might be that it is 6.235 to 11.6 times faster. I am now thoroughly confused about this s 7 - 17

 

[KenpoDave]

I know I said I was out of this but as I follow this from the sidelines I find I am getting more confused.

If it is not "will" or if you are not saying with private lessons you will learn 7 - 17 times faster or it will make you learn 7 - 17 times faster then you are left with private lessons you might learn 7 to 17 times faster and if that is it "might" again what is the point of 7 - 17 times faster. It might not as well it might be that it is 6.235 to 11.6 times faster. I am now thoroughly confused about this s 7 - 17

I did the math a while ago. I think it was post 15.

 

[Danjo]

I did the math a while ago. I think it was post 15.

And I'm sure it makes sense to you inside your own head. However, unless it can make sense to others, it's meaningless. Everything makes sense from the inside, you should hear the perverts talk. There is no real explaination for those numbers versus other numbers.

and as to making stuff up, here is what you said regarding faster learning students: " Students who learn faster than their peers have to wait until the whole class is ready."

Now, here is what I said, "...the students that are ready to test are arbitrarily held back for the slower students to be ready"

I'm saying the same thing, not making things up.

 

[Flying Crane]

and as to making stuff up, here is what you said regarding faster learning students: " Students who learn faster than their peers have to wait until the whole class is ready."

Now, here is what I said, "...the students that are ready to test are arbitrarily held back for the slower students to be ready"

I'm saying the same thing, not making things up.

Go back and reread post #97. He was referring to ANOTHER school in town, not his own, and not a Tracy school. This was in reference to somebody else's program.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I did the math a while ago. I think it was post 15.

I am not asking about the math I am asking about what it actually means. You say it is not saying it will increase but might that is what I am getting at and if it is might what is the point of 7-17?

And if you want to point to the math it is basically pointless, You can do all the math you want but to make a statement of 7-17 it saying you have done a study of this and I do not see any mention of a control group as compared to youR private lessons that could give you any data that says it is 7 to 17 time faster, better, or whatever the reason for this is.

What is the point of 7-17? And please do not points to the math it is not proof of anything nor does it answer my question.

Learn 7-17 times faster with private lessons is what the point of this whole post seems to be. But you say it does not mean someone "will" learn 7-17 times faster and you say it will not "make" someone learn 7-17 times faster and you say it does not speed up the training so at best it is it "might" work this way and by that logic I can also say it might not.

So what "exactly" is the point of the statement? What does it really mean and why was it actually made?

 

[KenpoDave]

So what "exactly" is the point of the statement? What does it really mean and why was it actually made?

When the Tracy's introduced the private lessons into their program, people coming from other systems were learning more material than they had at their previous schools. Tracy's students were learning the same material faster and retaining it better. Putting variables together such as time spent in lessons and amount of material learned at the old school vs. the new school, these numbers were arrived at.

The point of the statement was to let students who had trained previously in other group only programs that in Tracy's schools, they would not arbitrarily be held to a group testing schedule. They were free to learn and progress at whatever rate allowed them to succeed.

 

[Xue Sheng]

When the Tracy's introduced the private lessons into their program, people coming from other systems were learning more material than they had at their previous schools. Tracy's students were learning the same material faster and retaining it better. Putting variables together such as time spent in lessons and amount of material learned at the old school vs. the new school, these numbers were arrived at.

The point of the statement was to let students who had trained previously in other group only programs that in Tracy's schools, they would not arbitrarily be held to a group testing schedule. They were free to learn and progress at whatever rate allowed them to succeed.

Thanks

 

[Danjo]

Go back and reread post #97. He was referring to ANOTHER school in town, not his own, and not a Tracy school. This was in reference to somebody else's program.

My bad. On closer reading, you're obviously correct. I thought he was referring to another Tracy school and explaining how that even though privates make you learn 7-17 times faster, it didn't get you to black belt any faster.

It still leaves the original question then about how to you learn 7-17 times faster, progress at your own rate and still not get to black belt faster than 3-5 years?

 

[Danjo]

When the Tracy's introduced the private lessons into their program, people coming from other systems were learning more material than they had at their previous schools. Tracy's students were learning the same material faster and retaining it better. Putting variables together such as time spent in lessons and amount of material learned at the old school vs. the new school, these numbers were arrived at.

The point of the statement was to let students who had trained previously in other group only programs that in Tracy's schools, they would not arbitrarily be held to a group testing schedule. They were free to learn and progress at whatever rate allowed them to succeed.

Are you then saying that Tracy students have 7-17 times as much material as other systems out there? If that's the case, and with private lessons they get to black belt in the same period of time as the people at the other schools do, then they must practice what material they have less correct? There is an old Chinese saying that goes something like, "I fear the kick that has been practiced 10,000 times more than the 10,000 kicks that have been practiced once." Which means that there is an optimum amount of material that one can absorb and perfect in a certain period of time. What system, for instance, has 1/17th the amount of material that Tracy's Kenpo has? Whichever one it is, if they take the same amount of time to get to black belt, they will have practiced their techniques 17 times more than the Tracy black belt has no?

 

[KenpoDave]

Are you then saying that Tracy students have 7-17 times as much material as other systems out there?

Nope.

 

[Rickg]

I have had my share of private lessons and of course group classes. Really what I have found is that my skill level only increases at a good pace when I practice on my own on a regular basis in between classes wheither they are private or in a group class. Then it is good for me to work with other students of diffrent levels to practice my technique.
Really the only advantage I have found for private lessons is when I am learning Kata/forms. Then the Instructor can teach me the form or kata a little faster and can correct me so that I do not form bad habbits in doing the technique's of the form which I am apt to do when practicing on my own.

 

[KenpoDave]

I have had my share of private lessons and of course group classes. Really what I have found is that my skill level only increases at a good pace when I practice on my own on a regular basis in between classes wheither they are private or in a group class. Then it is good for me to work with other students of diffrent levels to practice my technique.
Really the only advantage I have found for private lessons is when I am learning Kata/forms. Then the Instructor can teach me the form or kata a little faster and can correct me so that I do not form bad habbits in doing the technique's of the form which I am apt to do when practicing on my own.

You have touched on a very important point, at least in my opinion, and that is the kind of time that individuals devote to their training between classes. Thank you.

 

[Josh Oakley]

LOL. There is no next lowest program as far as price is concerned. At least, not at my school.

Same for my school.

 

[Josh Oakley]

But privates won't allow you to learn 2,3,4,5, or 6 times faster? It's either 7-17 or nothing? See that's the crux of this whole silly thing. Why not say that they can accelerate one's learning up to 17 times faster? That way, it gives no minimum. However, by starting the scale at 7 times faster, it is directly implying that this minimum level will occur with the introduction of private lessons. You're the one that said Al doesn't pull numbers out of thin air. Why does it start at 7?

The phrases "The Earth is flat" and "The Sun circles the Earth." had been around a long time also. That made them accurate how?

Also, you're the one that said that a black belt in 1.25 years wasn't too fast, and now you're back tracking saying that the students that are ready to test are arbitrarily held back for the slower students to be ready. That begs the question: "Why the privates then?" What is the benifit of learning faster if you just have to wait around for the rest of the slow-pokes anyways?

Is the point of learning in martial arts about getting a belt?

The benefit of learning faster is (hopefully) an increased ability to defend yourself faster. Whether that would translate into a black belt, who cares. Plus, belts weren't included in the original topic of debate, but morphed into it.

But frankly, if someone has the time to train, and the physical ability, and the understanding of the art, a black belt in 1.25 years shouldn't be out of the question, really. Granted, it would be, in my opinion, an extreme case. It's hard to picture having the requisite training time and still have a job, and be married.

 

[Danjo]

Is the point of learning in martial arts about getting a belt?

The benefit of learning faster is (hopefully) an increased ability to defend yourself faster. Whether that would translate into a black belt, who cares. Plus, belts weren't included in the original topic of debate, but morphed into it.

But frankly, if someone has the time to train, and the physical ability, and the understanding of the art, a black belt in 1.25 years shouldn't be out of the question, really. Granted, it would be, in my opinion, an extreme case. It's hard to picture having the requisite training time and still have a job, and be married.

If it were about learning to defend yourself faster, then all that would be taught in privates would be self defense techniques, not kata and forms.

Belts are a recognition of progress ideally, so the two would go together unless you didn't recognize progress with rank or gave rank without progress.

 

[Flying Crane]

If it were about learning to defend yourself faster, then all that would be taught in privates would be self defense techniques, not kata and forms.

is it your opinion that forms and kata have no connection to self defense? I know there are a lot of people on the forums here, both within and outside of the kenpo community, who disagree with that idea. It seems there is always a thread going on where this is being debated, if you search around a bit you will probably find one.

Belts are a recognition of progress ideally, so the two would go together unless you didn't recognize progress with rank or gave rank without progress.

well, the key word there is "ideally", which doesn't always match with reality, regardless of who the school is affiliated with, or what system they are teaching.

That being said, in Tracy kenpo, a person who reaches Orange Belt, just two progressions, has plenty of material to successfully defend himself, if he just works on it and gets good at it. He really doesn't need more than that. We've got a guy in our school, a Purple Belt, just one step above Orange, and I believe he could defend himself quite well if need be. But then there are black belts out there who cannot defend themselves, so it really comes down to the individual and how well he can work with what he has.

So with regard to rank and ability to defend oneself, they don't necessarily go hand in hand, and they don't need to, at least not on the low end of the ranks.

 

[Danjo]

is it your opinion that forms and kata have no connection to self defense? I know there are a lot of people on the forums here, both within and outside of the kenpo community, who disagree with that idea. It seems there is always a thread going on where this is being debated, if you search around a bit you will probably find one.



well, the key word there is "ideally", which doesn't always match with reality, regardless of who the school is affiliated with, or what system they are teaching.

That being said, in Tracy kenpo, a person who reaches Orange Belt, just two progressions, has plenty of material to successfully defend himself, if he just works on it and gets good at it. He really doesn't need more than that. We've got a guy in our school, a Purple Belt, just one step above Orange, and I believe he could defend himself quite well if need be. But then there are black belts out there who cannot defend themselves, so it really comes down to the individual and how well he can work with what he has.

So with regard to rank and ability to defend oneself, they don't necessarily go hand in hand, and they don't need to, at least not on the low end of the ranks.

So then the privates should stop after Orange Belt then if the goal is only to learn to defend oneself faster eh? Once that was accomplished, no more need for speed.

 

[Danjo]

is it your opinion that forms and kata have no connection to self defense? I know there are a lot of people on the forums here, both within and outside of the kenpo community, who disagree with that idea. It seems there is always a thread going on where this is being debated, if you search around a bit you will probably find one.

The point was learning to defend oneself fast, not whether forms contributed to one's over all ability to defend oneself. I think that there are few that will argue convincingly that forms are the fastest road to self defense.