Leading USA Hapkido Leaders

[American HKD]

Dear Rudy,

Well Done!

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy, Stuart et al:

Drawing back to my earlier post, however, one aspect remains un-addressed.

We can see from Rudys' post that such guidance is possible. We can see from peoples' reactions to Rudys' post that such actions are admired and desireable. Touching on my earlier question, are we martial arts practitioners empowered to approach the leaders of our respective disciplines if we find such desireable behaviors lacking in our own associations? Taken a step farther, are we empowered to challenge our leaderships to communicate with other leaders in the best interests of solidarity? For instance, if GM Lee and GM Kim (fictitious people) don't talk, or had a falling out, are competitors etc etc etc are we required to continue that schism? Are we disallowed from challenging our leaders to reconcile in the best interests of the Hapkido arts? And if the leaders fail to reconcile, are we practitioners then required to honor those differences or risk losing the authentication of our affiliations?

Let me bring this down to a case.

If GM Myung and GM Ji had a falling out. Now there is a Sin Mu Hapkido and a WHF. Lets say I approach Myung and Ji and they don't want to speak to each other. According to Confucian tradition I am bound to honor my teachers' wishes. His schism is my schism, yes? So now I don't interact with Ji students (save behind my teachers' back) nor do I attend any of Jis' seminars or classes. And this is "why", exactly? Because a couple of grown gentlemen aren't speaking to each other? What about the many people cast out by Joo Bang Lee? What about the split between In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo? What about the many subsequent splits? What if "I" don't WANT a split!?! What if "I" want to see more people working together?? Am I suppose to honor these splits, ostracisms, and banishments because my teacher says so?

On the lighter side we can talk about supporting activities that improve our communities. But on the heavier side I think we must face a very real question of what level of empowerment practitioners have in the nature of their arts, what we expect from our leaders and how much influence we have regarding what happens to these arts as time goes on. Thoghts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

...If GM Myung and GM Ji had a falling out. Now there is a Sin Mu Hapkido and a WHF. Lets say I approach Myung and Ji and they don't want to speak to each other. According to Confucian tradition I am bound to honor my teachers' wishes. His schism is my schism, yes? So now I don't interact with Ji students (save behind my teachers' back) nor do I attend any of Jis' seminars or classes. And this is "why", exactly? Because a couple of grown gentlemen aren't speaking to each other? What about the many people cast out by Joo Bang Lee? What about the split between In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo? What about the many subsequent splits? What if "I" don't WANT a split!?! What if "I" want to see more people working together?? Am I suppose to honor these splits, ostracisms, and banishments because my teacher says so?...
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Stuart and Bruce: Thanks, but I honestly think that most martial artists would do no less. I have my parents to thank for raising me to be helpful to others, and I am glad of it... it makes a man feel downright good to do something like that.

Regarding your next concern of following the leader in the case of a split. As some of you know, I have been through this very thing several times. When GM Pak split away from GM Suh, and later when I myself left GM Suh. In the first instance of the split between GM Pak (and a bunch of other Korean Masters) and GM Suh, I maintained a working relationship between myself and both GM's. Each of them knew that I would not be pressured into this fray, and they apparently were OK with that.

When I later left WKSA (GM Suh), I told my students that my problem with WKSA was mine alone, and I expected no support from them. Today, I am still on friendly terms with a bunch of WKSA people, and I am glad to say my students also have friends on both sides of the fence.

On the other side of the coin:
I received a letter from a student of mine who eleced to stay with WKSA (I taught the man for more than thirty years and was the best man at his wedding. In fact, I was the person who sponsored him into Canada when he married one of my students). He advised me that I was no longer welcome at his tournaments, because GM Suh forbade him and his students to talk or associate with me. Sad end to a long friendship, and the funny thing is that my ex student no longer trains and gave up his school to one of his students. He not only lost a friend, but he also lost his zest for martial arts... too much politics

While I was away for nearly a year to open another school, I lost about half of my students when my school was raided by another one of my former students who stayed with WKSA (I had left this man in charge of my school while I was away). Nearly all of these students no longer train with him or anywhere for that matter, and I picked up seven WKSA schools in three different countries after all was said and done. I did not go looking for these folks, they simply came because they also did not care for the direction WKSA was heading.

FWIW, my answer to your question is that I do not and will not tell my students who they can or cannot associate with, for I know that would come back to haunt me someday. I say that, because the folks who betrayed my trust in them are now apparently ashamed to come back. Hence they have lost more than I did, and I would not want anyone to take such a loss on my account. I just lost a few disloyal students... they lost a good friend, and a teacher who cared for them (perhaps a bit too much) instead of $$$.

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

I belong to 3 MA Orgs. not all HKD the main reason for that in my case is to meet differant people and learn from everyone to become better myself. There are many talented people out there.

I thinks everyone should get along with everyone and holding the grudges of others only continues to perpetuate hatred.

I've held seminars for my students in Brazilian & Japanese grappling Arts as well as off shoots of Hapkido. As long as a student is serious about Hapkido in my classes and acts respectful I don't care what else they learn or from who.

 

[Black Belt FC]

Glad to see this topic is doing well with little dissent.





Lugo

 

[glad2bhere]

Once again, let me say that Rudy is modeling the way things need to go. It can be done and needs very much TO be done. What I am seeking is feedback regarding those situations where such acceptance--- if you will, "tolerance"---- is NOT being practiced.

We all are aware of situations in which leaders have decided not to interact with, or perhaps allow interaction with other Hapkido entities. When such situations arise among Hapkido leaders, other than "voting with your feet", what are the options for membership? Can members approach leadership for easements to attend other Hapkido events without jeopardizing their relationships with their own organizations? What would be an acceptable approach for seeking modification in organizational policy? How about the number of Hapkido organizations? Do we really need as many as we have? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

OK, how about this, why not start to show our leadership as a group ON THIS BOARD by say becoming supporting members - looks like is costs $12 a year - that is CHEAP for a board of this quality. I really post nowhere else now and I would say supporting this Board might be a very positive step...

More importantly, as a group, Hapkidoin have often been labeled as whiners because of all our infighting - well, here is an interesting opportunity to show otherwise...

Just a thought, and one I think worth doing...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[iron_ox]

Gee, that was easier than I thought...

And it felt good to give to this group to help ensure we can continue to have these discussions...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[kwanjang]

...We all are aware of situations in which leaders have decided not to interact with, or perhaps allow interaction with other Hapkido entities. When such situations arise among Hapkido leaders, other than "voting with your feet", what are the options for membership? Can members approach leadership for easements to attend other Hapkido events without jeopardizing their relationships with their own organizations? ...
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
Although I was a Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do practitioner when GM Suh still resided in Korea, I joined his WKSA (in the US) shortly after GM Pak decided to found another art that I did not want to change to. Frank discussions allowed me to continue a good relationship with GM Pak, while I joined WKSA.

When I did join WKSA, I was handed a licence agreement that I just did not fully agree with, and I negotiated a better deal. I suppose this was partly possible because I opened up another large area (Michigan and Canada) for GM Suh. By bringing something to the table, he entertained my proposal, and we both profited (he in $$$$, and me in knowledge) from the agreement.

WKSA policy was, and still is, to be totally immersed into WKSA, and that is simply because of $$$. No open tournaments, no interaction with others, and total committment to WKSA. Well, I just had too many friends of other orgs to allow this, and I told the good GM that I was simply not willing to forsake my friends to please him (something my old student of thirty years apparently was OK with). In fact, I believe WKSA business practices border on violating anti trust laws.

My point is that, with a little backbone, you can make the arrangement much more palatable. This in turn makes for a better relationship for both parties. In the case of WKSA, I brought him 16 schools in the span of two years. At that time, I only had my own school, so all of the other schools were bonus to WKSA. By being the regional (MI and Ca) Director, it was my mandate to do this, and I was happy to oblige.

The relationship soured only after GM Suh broke his promises to me and ended my trust in him. I will NOT work with anyone I cannot trust, and that caused me to focus more on my own NKMAA to continue to serve the folks I had brought into WKSA. I felt compelled to do so, because I had led these folks up the wrong path. I did NOT ask for any of these groups to follow me, I merely made it possible for them. Hence, I was able to stay out of applying political pressure on them, and I continue to do that in all aspects of running NKMAA. Folks simply use the particular things they have use for, and I do not force them to do anything that does not benefit them.

As far as how many orgs do we need... I think it is simply a supply and demand thing just as with any other commodity. Organizations only survive if they have something of value to offer. With NKMAA, it is simply a matter of my willingness to teach and share, as well as making nice certificates available that have a meaning behind them because they can't be bought unless they are earned.

In my wildest dreams, I would not have thought NKMAA would spread around the globe. I thought I would just be of service to my regional friends, but it is quite obvious that folks around the globe were looking for alternatives. IMHO, this is simply because of the type of nonsense we have recently witnessed with some of the major orgs representatives. Some very good people were left to hang dry, and others just simply took off in search for alternatives.

This type of nonsense is the very reason why so many orgs spring up and people like me survive and even grow. I teach something people apparently enjoy, I do this at a reasonable cost, I deliver in a timely manner, and I do not sell out to just anyone who comes along with a few bucks. In comparison, I hear (almost on a daily basis) horror stories of people who pay for certificates they never get, skills are not an issue as long as they have the $$$, the time it takes to get things is beyond reason, and the cost is in many cases prohibitive.

 

[kwanjang]

Hello all,

OK, how about this, why not start to show our leadership as a group ON THIS BOARD by say becoming supporting members - looks like is costs $12 a year - that is CHEAP for a board of this quality. I really post nowhere else now and I would say supporting this Board might be a very positive step...

More importantly, as a group, Hapkidoin have often been labeled as whiners because of all our infighting - well, here is an interesting opportunity to show otherwise...

Just a thought, and one I think worth doing...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

Hello Kevin:
I am willing to support any worthwhile endeavor that might help Korean martial arts. Communication is vital to doing this, and I put my money where my mouth is... so let me know what I can do.

 

[Chris from CT]

Hi:
Just stopping by...

Take Care,

Joannie Wollmershauser

Hey Joannie.
Welcome aboard!