Leading USA Hapkido Leaders

[Master Todd Miller]

I also don't think Choi Yong Sool wasn't educated in any philosophy and I think he taught only phyiscal techniques.


According to GM Lim, Doju Nim Choi's philosophy was
Wha-Harmony, Won-Complete, Yu-Dynamic.

These principles apply to technique as well as everyday life and in my opinion they make Hapkido totally complete and spiritual. I think today with the many different groups you have to be very careful of grouping ALL Hapkido in the same circle. :supcool:

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[kwanjang]

I also don't think Choi Yong Sool wasn't educated in any philosophy and I think he taught only phyiscal techniques.


According to GM Lim, Doju Nim Choi's philosophy was
Wha-Harmony, Won-Complete, Yu-Dynamic.

These principles apply to technique as well as everyday life and in my opinion they make Hapkido totally complete and spiritual. I think today with the many different groups you have to be very careful of grouping ALL Hapkido in the same circle. :supcool:

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

Many of us are not educated in philosophy, and the classes I had in that discipline were merely "fill ins" to earn my degree in Exercise Science and Rec Management. Yet, I believe that there are a number of Instructors who simply try to do "the right thing", and thus they teach a philosophy that is as good as it gets IMHO. Seen my share of "educated" people who sadly lack the moral fibers to do much good to their family and friends... let alone to the art we love.

As Master Miller said... it behoeves you to be careful.

Master Rosenberg:
Thank you sir... we keep trying, making more mistakes, and try again

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

"....According to GM Lim, Doju Nim Choi's philosophy was
Wha-Harmony, Won-Complete, Yu-Dynamic....."

In our own kwan we identify these as the THREE PILLARS of HAPKIDO. Our take is a bit different though you can still hear the same general themes.

The Water Principle

The Point and Circle Principle

The Economy of Energy Principle.

What shocks me is the point everyone seems to be coming back to. People go as far as teaching these principles in the physical sense as part of the physical art, but the intellectual, emotional and spiritual parts get lost repeatedly. Its not like this is any big secret in KMA. For centuries people who led armies knew that they not only had to have well-drilled soldiers, but soldiers who knew what they were doing, who had conquered fear, loneliness and boredom and who had the power of their convictions in what they were fighting for. Seems like nowadays people workout for things like weight-control or to face down the local bully. But I am truely appalled at what passes for mentoring with some of the supposed leaders. Stuart seems very taken with Ji and his deportment and demeanor. I don't hear a lot of other people piping up, though, and that troubles me some. Maybe "cash-and-carry" is what the modern practitioner wants. In that way the student won't ask too much of his teacher if the teacher doesn't ask too much of his student, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Greeting,

Todd & Rudy

I'm sorry I was'nt clear enough.

I meant Taoist or Buddist type philosophy which is more specialized type of philosophy if one want to live by them. That does requires much more study then one gets in the average Dojang or a few college courses.

As far a the 3 principle of Hapkido being spiritual in nature I agree in some sense. Ying/Yang and Unity etc.

My personal Philosphy is also very simple;

"Dont to to others what you dont want done to you" the Golden Rule!

 

[Master Todd Miller]

My personal Philosphy is also very simple;

"Dont do to others what you dont want done to you" the Golden Rule!

I agree, Treating others as you would like to be treated, is very important to growth. The trick is to treat them well even when they do not desearve it!

Todd
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

A few things:

I think that anyone that has the "brass ones" to stand up and post here is a leader - becasue you believe in something or are brave enough to ask a question.

Second, I think to assume that Choi Yong Sul had no education (formal or informal) is unwise. He lived with an admitted paranoid (Takeda Sokaku) for 30+ years, and survived two major wars in his own backyard (WWII and Korean War) - this is an education in itself. Upon his return to Korea, he seemed indifferent to what he did to support his family (raise pigs, teach self defense, whatever) - he learned a brutal, no nonsense form of defense and taught it as such - what is probably most interesting is that despite the fact that he may not have taught religious philosophy, he clearly gave a core set of values from which to build on. Whatever other intructors added later is fine if it works for you, but in my opinion, it was the flexible way Choi taught that gave rise to the addition of the more religious philosophies. I also say this because many make assumptions about the education of Choi, saying for example that he was illterate, well I've seen letters he wrote, so maybe we should assume a little less.

Sincerely,
Kevin Sogor

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Hey, I think Kwanjang Rudy should count - even though he is not from the USA! LOL

 

[American HKD]

Dear Everyone,

I did'nt mean to sound disrespectful to Choi, and I'm sure he was very "Street Smart" as Kevin suggested.

Philosophy at some point becomes a scholarly endevor to a higher degree then one can get in a Dojang is my only point and I would'nt mind seeing a more developed systemized Philosophy for Hapkido in general such as Sin Moo.

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting Sin Moo HKD is for everyone and everybody.

All I'm saying is that IMHO Sin Moo is a more complete Hapkido philosophy then any I know of to date.

If someone knows about others I'd love to hear about it.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

All I'm saying is that IMHO Sin Moo is a more complete Hapkido philosophy then any I know of to date

I totally disagree! No dissrespect intended. The completeness of what Doju Nim Choi taught took more than a few years to understand and GM Ji did not train with DJN Choi for very long! No dissrespect to GM Ji. There are many different ways to approach the Hapkido arts. The base will always be DJN Choi!

Take care
Todd
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
:asian:

 

[kwanjang]

Hello all,

Hey, I think Kwanjang Rudy should count - even though he is not from the USA! LOL

Thank You Master Sogor Actually I was born in Holland, and I came to Canada in 1958. I live right on the border of MI, and I actually did my BSc at LSSU in MI. Lived in Michigan for quite some time. I guess not being a born and bred Canadian, I feel like I am at home in both places. I must say that people treat me good in both places, and I am very grateful for that Been back to Holland several times to do seminars, and I feel less at home there than I do in the US.

 

[glad2bhere]

I don't think we could stress Kevins' post too much. True enough that I have also heard about Choi' illiteracy but some of the most insightful things I have heard came out of the mouths' of folks who had been on the street since they were children. Learning to survive based on ones' own wits tends to bring out some pretty pragmatic wisdom about the way people are together. The trick, as I see it, is how well a person can pass that wisdom on or encourage it in other people. Listening to the antecdotal information that comes up now and again, Idon't hear a lot about what Choi said or thought. Maybe some of this will come out more as time goes on. In the meantime I must say that I hear only Ji Han Jae and Rudy Timmerman identified as individuals who folks would like to emmulate in the Hapkido community. I'd like to think there are more, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Todd,

You wrote

.......I totally disagree! No dissrespect intended. The completeness of what Doju Nim Choi taught took more than a few years to understand and GM Ji did not train with DJN Choi for very long! No dissrespect to GM Ji. There are many different ways to approach the Hapkido arts. The base will always be DJN Choi!........

I never feel direspected from a friendly discussion and I agree there are many branches of the tree.

It's true that the 3 main principles of HKD were taught by Choi or basically that's Aiki-JuJutsu or Yawara theory dating back hundreds of years?

As a Jung Ki practioner your lines not stemming from Ji's tradition you may not be fully aware of Ji's background.

Also as you say Ji trained with Choi for only 7 years, but Ji claims as I posted earlier in the thread that he learned spiritual training from 2 other folks, Taoist Lee & Grandma.

Ji has a well documented writen Philosophy he teaches his students complete with several advanced methods of meditations and breathing, how to eat, attitudes about life treating your fellow man etc. very specific stuff.

Ji studied Korean Taoism and other subjects to develop Sin Moo. He started teaching it in 1983/84 however his studies began when he was in his late teens years. So over all Sin Moo philosophy took 25 plus years to develope. As you see the time he spent with Choi was not the basis for Sin Moo.

What did Choi or his succesors put on paper as a Hapkido philosophy other than the 3 principles?

Can you post it here?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot maybe there's something handed down through your tradition that many of us haven't had the opportunity to see?

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I was considering the original question posed in this thread and wondering just how weird it is to try and quantify leadership. I am a little more familiar with the guys and gals that post here, and for me that makes them leaders. But for the rest of the country, or world, how does one establish leadership?

magazines used to be the way in which I would find out who was who, but since I have come to learn that being on the cover is not an honor, but just a payment to the magazine, I question now if that was leadership or a large pocketbook.

Let me speak a minute of my back yard, Chicago. There have been Hapkido guys here for about 30 years, and several still have active and thriving schools. But are they leaders? I wonder. They are not active at all outside there own dojangs, and save the folks here that may have trained with them, they are unknown - even after 30 years. My point is that I think that part of leadership is exposure, and (not always commercial) name recognition - we may all have different perspectives on Hapkido - cool beans - but these perspectives have to be available for the public so that Hapkido is no longer seen as a Taekwondo add on.

Stuart, you are an EXCELLENT "spokesman" (for lack of a better word) for JI Han Jae, the way you describe Sin Moo actually makes me look at it in a different light. Thanks for that.

Kwanjang Rudy, please call me Kevin, being called by a title :lol: :lol: has always weirded me out.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

The idea of "exposure" is definitely important. In the little exchange on another string that was the point I was trying to make using myself as an example. people can talk all they want about following a Warriors' Path" but the question is when does one put that position out for people to see? I'm not talking about riding the "L" in the early morning hours looking for trouble, or working as a bouncer in a club. I'm talking about doing things that you have every reason NOT to do, but you do it because it makes the community a little better for having done it. The reason I tie this into "exposure" is that in being seen to do such things you then become a mentor to folks that may have had the same thought but couldn't bring themselves to act. I know I might step on some toes here but I have the belief that this is why I don't take someone like Chang Chin Il and put him forward as a teacher and leader. Not that the guy doesn't have his credentials. Its just that I think that a person who pulls off by himself and makes it hard to access his classes is not fullfilling his role as a leader. A leader, to me, puts something at risk. People need to know what that person stands for, to see them lead a satisfying life proceeding from that position and be able to teach those skills to others. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Kevin,

I mainly studied under one Master in Philadelphia since the 1979 until the last couple of years through the internet have I had the chance to find out about many other Hapkidoin.

My teacher is a great technician, a good instructor, and a good man, in Korea his Kwan was known for thier kicks and thier throwing and locking skills but here he's not known at all. Nobody's seeking him out for anything.

I don't consider him a leader in Hapkido other than in his school he's just a man doing his own thing with his own school.

Just a few people in each generation are ever respected universally as world wide leaders of anything.

There's an old saying that "Each person is only responsible to what they come in contact with". Within that realm each person can be a leader that's how I see myself and you yours etc.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

I want to agree with you but I keep sticking on that one point of a person pulling off by themselves. I know that there is almost an archetype associated with the solitary MA practitioner or the "Mr Miyagi" character who is highly accomplished but unrecognized in his daily life. I know in my own life I have gotten really fed-up with some of the crap that goes on with these various nets, organizations and events. More than a few times I wanted to fold my tent and pull-off to one side myself. I think, if one is truely, honestly committed to the KMA they will be looking for ways to pitch back into the pot without expecting compensation. Just this string here is a good example. Think about how many lurkers there are who are reading this material right now and hearing what we are saying about the qualities of good leadership. I bet none of those folks are going to make any huge changes in their behaviors in the next day or so, but maybe we are giving them pause to think, yes? What if In Hyuk Suh or Joo Bang Lee is reading this and says to himself, "hey, good point. Lets give that a try." I doubt he is going to report the influence to the world but maybe it will influence how he promotes policy with his organization. For my part I would like to see a whole lot more of those big names getting off their chairs and out of the office to rub elbows with the "common man", ya know? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

I have been reluctant to respond to this post in fear of looking just like a cheerleader for my GM Kim Jin Pal. I did a Marriam-Webster search for leader.

2 : a person who leads : as a : GUIDE, CONDUCTOR b (1) : a person who directs a military force or unit (2) : a person who has commanding authority or influence

That didn't seem to encompass what we are talking about. So I followed the synonym "guide".

1 a : one that leads or directs another's way b : a person who exhibits and explains points of interest c : something that provides a person with guiding information d : SIGNPOST 1 e : a person who directs another's conduct or course of life

This seems to be what we are talking about. It is more the whole "finger pointing at the moon" scenario. Now, the original post was "who are the prominent leaders in the USA" I think this has more to do with exposure, "prominent" being the key word, than whether you agree with where they are leading or not. So as for well known leaders in no particular order off the top of my head- Whalen, West, Timmerman, Han Bong Soo, Pellegrini, Ji Han Jae, Myung, Rim, Wollmershauser, Shaw, and yes, even Hackworth. (please excuse any omissions that you deemed necessary they weren't intentional)

Now would I like to associate with all those names, most but not all, one never. But I know the names when I look for hapkido information in the US/NA those names come up. So this is a small and not even close to a complete look at Hapkido in the US. From the outside looking in that is the picture that you get. If you are a member of some BBS there are other names that come up like Bruce and Fabian, Stewart, Ray Terry etc. A larger picture but still not complete. So with our leaders like any community you have some good, some eh, and some downright wrong.

I didn't include my GM in the list because although well known in korean national circles and perhaps their students. I don't think he is as prominent in the same manner as the aforementioned names. But he does fit the the "guide" definition. He's seen a lot, knows a lot and is willing to share a lot. And I think thats all you can ask for.

Brian

 

[iron_ox]

Brian,

I think you hit the nail on the head!!! Great post - and hey, this is the place to get exposure, so I would say by all means promote those of prominence here.


Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

ps ain't Scott Shaw from Austrailia?

 

[American HKD]

Dear Bruce,

You wrote

.......A leader, to me, puts something at risk. People need to know what that person stands for, to see them lead a satisfying life proceeding from that position and be able to teach those skills to others.....

To me these people fit the bill in the US of course each with-in thier own capacity.

I think after hearing everyones thoughts my conclusion would seems to be IMO.

Ji Han Jae? Kwang Sik Myung? Kim Jin Pal? Tae Jung? Hwang In Sik? JR West?
Rudy Timmerman? Hal Walen? Bruce?, Stuart?, Kevin?, Todd? unknown, unknown, etc.

All of the above leaders in thier own right as long as they're doing the right thing for the Art and thier students and are trying to better themselves.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

This sounds frightfully close to a concessus to me - this may be a first - we all agree on something!!!

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor