LDS Church and Racism

[Ceicei]

From post #92 of this thread:

Elder999, once and for all, racism has never been an official doctrine of our church. Just read the "actual" Articles of Faith from The Pearl of Great Price in our scriptures.

Elder999: There you have it, an authoritative genuine statement on racism in the Church.....:wavey:

For those who read the above posts and not knowing what is the "Articles of Faith", I will explain a bit. The Articles of Faith was written by Joseph Smith and is a very basic summary of LDS beliefs. This was originally published in the Times and Seasons(Nauvoo, Illinois) on March 1, 1842; it was then included into the Pearl of Great Price which became officially accepted as scriptures during General Conference in Salt Lake City on October 10, 1880. While the Articles of Faith does not address the subject of racism directly, it does give some instruction how we are to treat other people (verses 11 and 13).

The Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

- Ceicei

 

[elder999]

Nice try, elder999. You're just making stuff up the way all anti-Mormons do.

Oh geez, I guess I was wrong about Utah's statehood-it became a slavery territory in 1850.

The Brigham Young party that arrived in the Salt Lake Valley in July 1847 included three African Americans - Green Flake, Oscar Crosby, and Hark Lay. These men were slaves of southern Mormons who sent them ahead to help prepare for the arrival of the Mormon caravans that were to follow. By 1850 there were approximately sixty blacks residing in the Utah Territory. The majority were slaves living in Salt Lake, Davis, and Utah counties. Although slavery was not sanctioned by law until 1852, the religiously homogeneous community accepted the servile status of the majority of black residents. Slavery officially ended in 1862 when the United States Congress abolished slavery in the territories.

You can read that here,at the Utah History Encylopedia, published by the University of Utah press in 1994.

I'll spare you the quite savory and well-documented Brigham Young quotes, mostly because I'm not anti-Mormon-I'm not anti-anything, really. I didn't create your church history-three of your fellow church members haven't denied it, and have done a fair job of trying to explain it. Why do you insist upon denying it, and defensively labeling the truth as untrue? I understand that the policies and practices (and yes, I'll avoid the word "doctrine" here) changed in 1978-seven years before you were born, 19 years before you could attain priesthood-and that things have changed-whatever the reasons. I'm fairly sure that neither you, Dustin, nor any of them are racists, or were raised to be-though, like most Americans, including myself, they probably harbor some subtle racist thoughts and actions.I can also say that because it appears that BRigham Young was a racist (which would make him a product of his time, and not evil) and the LDS church practices-whatever the reasons-were racist for nearly a century, does not make Mormons racist, anymore than it does southerners. Just as southerners may or may not be racist, though, doesn't change the fact that part of the history of the region is the practice of racism.

Let me ask you a question, okay? Were parts of the south racist for insiting that black people sit in the back of the bus, separate sections in the movie theater, use separate public facilities like water fountains, parks and restrooms, not be served in restaruants, and not vote-in other words, not be permitted many of the rights of common citizens? Was that racist?Is it part of southern history?

Or simply something that doesn't exist, because it changed before you were on the planet?

While the Articles of Faith does not address the subject of racism directly, it does give some instruction how we are to treat other people (verses 11 and 13).

Thanks Ceicei-and if I hadn't made it clear before, I'll say again that this is the way I have always been treated by Mormons (except for Becky, that evil ***** in 5th grade!) , and the way my mother was treated growing up in Wyoming. That, however, is anecdotal-and I'm avoiding the anecdotal for now, though I've mentioned it to keep people from thinking I'm some kind of hater-it's also why I've avoided posting links to anecdotal stories from black LDS members and former members on "both sides of the argument" about how they've been treated and felt-though I have to thank Ray(?) and 'Caver for supplying some.

Ray, I'm pretty sure you know that all of "Doctrines and Salvation" are sermons and talks given prior to Joseph Fielding Smith becoming President in 1971-in fact, they're all from the 50's-though it doesn't change the fact that he taught them-which opens up all sorts of interesting questions that I'll just try to avoid-we can just agree that he couldn't set doctrine at the time he said those things.

 

[Ray]

Let me ask you a question, okay? Were parts of the south racist for insiting that black people sit in the back of the bus, separate sections in the movie theater, use separate public facilities like water fountains, parks and restrooms, not be served in restaruants, and not vote-in other words, not be permitted many of the rights of common citizens? Was that racist?Is it part of southern history?

Or simply something that doesn't exist, because it changed before you were on the planet?

That is an elemental question truely. Surely some of those who acted in (what we would call racist today) didn't think they were racist at the time. To be sure, some did out of dislike. I wonder how many people grew up in yester-year believing that "whatever" was "just the way things are."

Times may have changed, but have the hearts of people changed? Have a few people of great wisdom come along, showed us the error of our ways, caused some changes to society and now we just grow up believing in a different "just the way things are?"

I remember my paternal grand-parents who grew up in a rural area of Utah making a comment about a black family who were members of their church unit in Utah. I, having grown up in Southern California, was uncomfortable with their comments. No, they didn't use the "n" word or anything similar; and they expressed nothing but love and respect for them; I think, for them, it was a novel experience to know people of another race;

 

[MA-Caver]

I guess I'm a racist by the mere fact that when I was younger I used the n-word to refer to blacks in my school and neighborhood, I hated the black kids in my school, thought all their girls were ugly, all the boys stupid and lazy and they all ought to be in a separate school. The fact that most of my fights in school were with the n-words as I referred to them afterwards.

Never mind the fact that today, one of my best friends' wife is black with three beautiful children, that I was one of the first people who supported him unhesitatingly. Never mind the fact that I've lived, worked, laughed and cried side by side with blacks in a half-way house while I (and they) were in the early days of our drug/alcohol addiction recovery. Never mind the fact that I've black friends who invite me over to their family's bbq and I'm the only white guy there. Never mind the fact that today, I've asked black girls out on dates (unsuccessfully -- so far :wink1: ). Never mind all of that, never mind all the room-mates I've shared apartments with that were black (or of another race for that matter), in spite of the fact that I now, today... against racism of any kind, teach to the young whenever I can the equality between a black man and a white man shouldn't be looked at for skin color but should be looked at by their character. Yes, I'll credit MLKjr for planting that idea into my head.

Because I've had those thoughts, feelings, ideals in the past I'm a racist! Oh that would include anyone else who've associated with me at all.

 

[elder999]

I guess I'm a racist by the mere fact that when I was younger I used the n-word to refer to blacks in my school and neighborhood, I hated the black kids in my school, thought all their girls were ugly, all the boys stupid and lazy and they all ought to be in a separate school. The fact that most of my fights in school were with the n-words as I referred to them afterwards.

Never mind the fact that today, one of my best friends' wife is black with three beautiful children, that I was one of the first people who supported him unhesitatingly. Never mind the fact that I've lived, worked, laughed and cried side by side with blacks in a half-way house while I (and they) were in the early days of our drug/alcohol addiction recovery. Never mind the fact that I've black friends who invite me over to their family's bbq and I'm the only white guy there. Never mind the fact that today, I've asked black girls out on dates (unsuccessfully -- so far :wink1: ). Never mind all of that, never mind all the room-mates I've shared apartments with that were black (or of another race for that matter), in spite of the fact that I now, today... against racism of any kind, teach to the young whenever I can the equality between a black man and a white man shouldn't be looked at for skin color but should be looked at by their character. Yes, I'll credit MLKjr for planting that idea into my head.

Because I've had those thoughts, feelings, ideals in the past I'm a racist! Oh that would include anyone else who've associated with me at all.

No, you're not a racist. Maybe you were, once- that's not for me to say though, based on the evidence, I think you probably would say as much yourself. The rest of the evidence points towards you not being a racist.....

...and I'm not saying that the LDS is racist-only that it had some questionable practices and policies that were. I'm not saying that all Mormons are racist simply because some clearly have been-or perhaps (surely?) are-there's no guilt by association, and no judgement here. Heck, there are more than a couple of fringe groups like so-called "Christian Identity" movements who's entire doctrine is based on racism. I'm looking at underlying tenets or practices of "mainstream" religions that could be thought of as racist.

 

[Twin Fist]

Well.
Hmmm
This has certainly been thought provoking. I dont normally think about my religion too much. I havnt attended services in over 10 years. But I still consider myself LDS.

Race is perhaps the hardest thing to talk about in America today. I wonder why that is.

 

[MA-Caver]

No, you're not a racist. Maybe you were, once- that's not for me to say though, based on the evidence, I think you probably would say as much yourself. The rest of the evidence points towards you not being a racist.....

...and I'm not saying that the LDS is racist-only that it had some questionable practices and policies that were. I'm not saying that all Mormons are racist simply because some clearly have been-or perhaps (surely?) are-there's no guilt by association, and no judgement here. Heck, there are more than a couple of fringe groups like so-called "Christian Identity" movements who's entire doctrine is based on racism. I'm looking at underlying tenets or practices of "mainstream" religions that could be thought of as racist.

Yes, okay. I didn't mean my post to be antagonistic by any sense. Mainly to make a point which you have gotten and already have gotten before my (above) post.
It is hoped that your other examinations of other faiths (Baptists, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodists, Catholic, etc. etc.) will also show the same type of attitudes as the LDS church has shown in the past... by it's individual members (leaders or otherwise). But like all faiths and all things, there are good and bad members. There are smart and ignorant (not stupid) members.
If anything the LDS church by and large cannot (to my knowledge--so far) be accused of actively segregating it's congregations like the Baptists, and other faiths that I've known down here in the south.
And we all know that segregation is racism. (sarcastic)
So looking forward to discussions on the other faiths and their take on race and the attitudes there of.

 

[DustinJolley]

Elder999, quite frankly, you're a lot like Keith Olbermann on MSNBC. Or anybody on MSNBC for that matter. You have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

 

[Twin Fist]

Dustin,
to be fair, Elder is a LOT smarter than Olbermann.

But, i think that 8 pages of people telling him "no, maybe once but not anymore" have been wasted because he is still stuck in the past saying "but what about this"

 

[exile]

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[elder999]

Elder999, quite frankly, you're a lot like Keith Olbermann on MSNBC. Or anybody on MSNBC for that matter. You have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Quite right, I'm a stupid doo-doo poopie head. Pay no attention to the words produced by my keyboard.....

Olbermann? Haven't they fired that guy yet? I mean, I'm a liberal, and I don't even watch that crap on MSNBC-do you?

 

[Twin Fist]

judging by the ratings, NO ONE watches MSNBC

 

[DustinJolley]

Of course nobody watches MSNBC. By the way, MSNBC hates Mormons. Or at least Lawerence O'Donnell does.

 

[elder999]

Nice try, elder999. You're just making stuff up the way all anti-Mormons do.

I'd still like to know what it is that I'm "making up," and how I'm "anti-Mormon." :rpo:

 

[Ray]

Of course nobody watches MSNBC. By the way, MSNBC hates Mormons. Or at least Lawerence O'Donnell does.

Come on Dustin. What are you doing? Stop, bro.

 

[thardey]

First, I've got no dog in this fight, I'm not Mormon, and a couple of my friends are.

Just a couple of things I've noticed in this discourse.

Elder- (Am I the only one that gets the irony in that name, related to this discussion? Nevermind.)

Are you looking for Official Church doctrine for racism in the LDS, and when/how it was officially revoked?

Or are you looking for Personal Beliefs within the LDS Church as a whole, and when those personal beliefs changed?

Because, as I read it, the answer to the first question was back at the beginning, on page 4, provided by 'Caver:

Official racial discrimination in the church dates to Brigham Young, who succeeded Smith as president of the church. Nevertheless, blacks could be baptized, and many black people joined the LDS Church prior to 1978. Church leaders taught that the priesthood ban did not justify other forms of discrimination against blacks. [1] In 1978, church leaders ceased the racial restriction policy after declaring that they had received a revelation instructing them to do so. The church officially opposes racial discrimination and racism.[2]

So, if the banning of Blacks from the priesthood was racist (which I believe it was) then that Official Policy changed in 1978. So far as I've ever heard, that's the only Official Doctrine that deals with race.

If you're looking for changes in Personal Beliefs in LDS regarding racism, then Official Policy has nothing to do with it. Individual Mormons have been racists, at one time a large portion of Mormons were racist to a degree, now they majority of Mormons aren't.

As you pointed out correctly,

If you can't articulate how the changes came about, then how can you truly differentiate between what happened in the past, and what is held to be true now? It's entirely possible-even likely-that members of the church of LDS heirarchy were teaching racist doctrine prior to 1978, and are alive today? Do they truly believe differently? Did they experience some sort of personal epiphany on an individual level, or is it enough that their president simply said it was so?

At a personal level, nothing changed with the official change in '78. It was personal before, and it is still personal. For how that change came about, it was the same for Mormons as it was for everyone else in the U.S. Civil Rights, MLK, and changing attitudes affected everybody.

As for the connection of dark skin = sin found in the Book of Mormon, that is certainly a stumbling block for those who are racist to begin with. However, no where does it say (that I've seen) that the descendants of those who were "cursed" are still bearing the sin, or curse, of their ancestors -- they only bear the mark. That is, the descendants are not cursed, only the original sinners, who were given a mark to distinguish them from others, whether Cain or the Lamanites.

Now, of course there are people who will point to that and say "Since he's Black, he must be cursed." But that's not Mormon Doctrine, any more that the curse of Ham gave rights to own African slaves.

If the removal of those verses in the Book of Mormon is what you feel would be required before the doctrine of LDS is no longer racist, then you'll have to wait a long time for that to change, because I don't think those verses are going anywhere. If that means to you then LDS is racist, then that's your belief, and you're certainly entitled to it. Just know that that interpretation is not part of the LDS church doctrine anymore.

 

[DustinJolley]

It's very simple, elder999. It's considered anti-Mormon when you criticize the church for no good reason. It's anti-Mormon to spread rumors about the church that aren't true. It's anti-Mormon to suggest that we're not even Christian as "Rev." Bill Keller, Pat Robertson, Christopher Hitchens, Bill Maher, Lawerence O'Donnell, Al Sharpton, Ana Marie Cox, Air America Radio, The SBC, and others have done.

 

[thardey]

It's very simple, elder999. It's considered anti-Mormon when you criticize the church for no good reason. It's anti-Mormon to spread rumors about the church that aren't true. It's anti-Mormon to suggest that we're not even Christian as "Rev." Bill Keller, Pat Robertson, Christopher Hitchens, Bill Maher, Lawerence O'Donnell, Al Sharpton, Ana Marie Cox, Air America Radio, The SBC, and others have done.

That's probably a better discussion for another thread.

 

[elder999]

It's very simple, elder999. It's considered anti-Mormon when you criticize the church for no good reason.

Where have I done that?

It's anti-Mormon to spread rumors about the church that aren't true.

Where have I done that?

It's anti-Mormon to suggest that we're not even Christian as "Rev." Bill Keller, Pat Robertson, Christopher Hitchens, Bill Maher, Lawerence O'Donnell, Al Sharpton, Ana Marie Cox, Air America Radio, The SBC, and others have done.

....er...um...I dunno... where have I done that?
Still like to know what I'm "making up?"

 

[DustinJolley]

You've been criticizing my religion during this entire discussion, elder999.