Kukkiwon – do we really need it?

[Markku P]

I think the real question is: when taekwondo looses Olympic status, will we need the WTF anymore?

The most European countries aka federations will need an organization like WTF ( non-profit organization ) to be able to be a member a national sport federations. (this also means they will get money from them. I assume that USA has same kind of system.)

/Markku P.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

and they can. at any open or local event.

however to compete at a WTF Sanctioned event, 1 must have a KKW. just imagine if every homemade basketball team showed up at March madness, without being a sanctioned College team. How can 1 enforce a ruleset if there is no "certified standard" to play by. so the AND1 boys and city streetball crews would play against the TOP college teams with no basis for rules or consequences.

I dont really understand the basketball analogy as Im australian and there is little to no interest in basketball here. But, as long as they played by the rules I dont see a problem. I dont have a problem with having a governing body to make rules for competition, but as long as the rules are adhered to I couldnt care less who competes. I never said there would be "no certified standard to play by", I fully believe you need one set of rules that all competitors adhere to, but there are literally thousands and thousands of tkdists all over the world who spar using the WTF ruleset but belong to clubs that are not kukkiwon affiliated. I know you can compete at certain events without kukkiwon certification but most major events would require the cert I imagine. I know when I tell people (outside of the tkd world) that you need to be a kukkiwon member to compete at the olympics they find that concept very "odd".

 

[andyjeffries]

PS: I still feel it's wrong to demand that you need to have Kukkiwon certificates WTF sanctioned competitions.

The funny thing is that I think this is one area where the WTF will split further from the Kukkiwon in future.

Currently (as I understand it) you need a Kukkiwon 1st Dan or above and a WTF Athlete Licence. It's not a big push in the future for the WTF to say "actually, we're just a sport body, as long as they have an athlete licence that's all they need".

 

[andyjeffries]

When I spoke people who are involved a national sport federation, they felt it was really weird that people have to pay money to separate organization (aka Kukkiwon Dan certificate) to be able to compete..

Let's not blow it out of proportion though - it's not an annual fee that you have to pay to the Kukkiwon, it's $70 at the start of your competition career. Consider it like the cost of buying a dobok, hogu, head guard, etc, etc - it's a one-off investment that you have to pay to compete. If it helps you, a proportion of that money goes to the WTF anyway (so just consider it being paid the other way round - you pay the WTF for the dan certificate and they pass a proportion on to the Kukkiwon ;-) ).

 

[andyjeffries]

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that someone needs a kukkiwon cert to compete. As long as someone shows up to the event and competes within the ruleset, then why should they need a kukkiwon cert? I couldnt care less if they've never done a days tkd training in their life, provided they play by the rules they should be allowed to compete.

I think it's slightly different because it's a combat sport with a restrictive rule set. You could get a guy off the street who in the heat of the moment starts punching in the face. Sure, they'd be penalised, but they still shouldn't be doing it (more than an odd accident). I would say the principle is by the time they get to KKW 1st Dan then they should be well trained in not punching in the face during sparring/competition.

What I mean is they should be safer for having a known history of training in that style, rather than a just "memorise these rules and don't break them, now go fight!".

I am competing in a marathon in a couple of months and I dont need certification from a "marathon running org" to be allowed to compete. Me thinks money plays a part here.

The difference is that marathon running isn't a contact/combat sport. The rules are to run from here to there as fast as you can and don't take drugs ;-)

For comparison, Judo requires an IJF 1st Dan to compete in the olympics. Boxing requires an AIBA licence as far as I remember.

 

[andyjeffries]

I know when I tell people (outside of the tkd world) that you need to be a kukkiwon member to compete at the olympics they find that concept very "odd".

The funny thing is on occasions when I've discussed that you need a World Taekwondo Headquarters (it helps to use the English words rather than Korean) black belt certificate to compete internationally, the most common response is "that's good, saves you getting your head kicked off by some black belt ninja-type guy". Most people think it's a good thing that you need an international certificate of competency.

Of course, they aren't aware that a KKW 1st Dan might mean nothing more than a bit of paper given by an instructor who doesn't care about quality (and may never have met you) ;-)

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The funny thing is on occasions when I've discussed that you need a World Taekwondo Headquarters (it helps to use the English words rather than Korean) black belt certificate to compete internationally, the most common response is "that's good, saves you getting your head kicked off by some black belt ninja-type guy". Most people think it's a good thing that you need an international certificate of competency.

Of course, they aren't aware that a KKW 1st Dan might mean nothing more than a bit of paper given by an instructor who doesn't care about quality (and may never have met you) ;-)

True, but what about the thousands of quality black belts world wide who cant compete due to the fact their club is not affiliated with the kukkiwon? It seems the couple of people who would show up and "not know the rules well enough and end up punching someone in the face" would pale in comparison to the thousands and thousands of good quality black belts world wide who have to miss out. Personally, I have no interest in competing so I dont really care but it did seem odd to me that years ago when my club would send competitors to "open" tournaments we had guys who would wipe the floor with tkdists who were well and truly in contention for olympic trials. Dont get me wrong, we also had some of our guys get their asses kicked. It wasnt just our club either, there were some great tkdists at these tournments who were "ineligible" which is a great shame because at something like the olympics you want to see the best vs the best, not just the best of what is available. It just seemed odd that they were ineligable due to not having a piece of cardboard, despite still being a tkd black belt. It just seems odd to me.

 

[andyjeffries]

It just seemed odd that they were ineligable due to not having a piece of cardboard, despite still being a tkd black belt. It just seems odd to me.

It seems odd to me that you had good competitors who were beating olympic trial level athletes, but "you" (they, whatever) let a $70 certificate stand in their way. I'm sure you could have found someone to promote them.

If you considered it an entrance fee to the next level of competition, rather than either giving money to Korea or paying for cardboard, who knows where they could have reached.

 

[d1jinx]

It seems odd to me that you had good competitors who were beating olympic trial level athletes, but "you" (they, whatever) let a $70 certificate stand in their way. I'm sure you could have found someone to promote them.

If you considered it an entrance fee to the next level of competition, rather than either giving money to Korea or paying for cardboard, who knows where they could have reached.

funny thing is, no one said you had to get anything Higher than a 1st Dan KKW. thats ALL thats required!!!

 

[andyjeffries]

funny thing is, no one said you had to get anything Higher than a 1st Dan KKW. thats ALL thats required!!!

Exactly, it's a one-off $70 entrance fee to being an Olympic level athlete. Really that big a deal? I think not.

 

[d1jinx]

Exactly, it's a one-off $70 entrance fee to being an Olympic level athlete. Really that big a deal? I think not.

unless you can't get it!!!! :angel:

 

[Markku P]

Exactly, it's a one-off $70 entrance fee to being an Olympic level athlete. Really that big a deal? I think not.

It's quite a big deal when there is thousands of people who will pay 70-500USD every year to Korea and we don't really know what happens all the money.

/Markku P.

/markku P.

 

[Markku P]

This is a topic that has been done to death. Why rehash it again?



Also how much do you pay for your certifications? If you pay KKW prices then you know as well as I that there is not much money to be made there. One 1st Dan certification is roughly $50.00. This gives you the cert, a card and a listing in the database. This also provides for the mailing to get it back. So again, let's low ball the estimate in putting this together. You have the paper and the id card probably costs them $10.00 at most. Then you have to higher someone to do data entry so lets say $.50 of fee goes to that (since you are looking at lot of these to be processed). Finally to ship it back is around $10.00. So now your "profit" is $50-20.50= 29.50. So TKD will make a total profit of $29.50 per 1st dan. Naturally I did not include other expenses such as utilities, other personnel, etc.

These are the numbers I don't believe. The cost of printing etc. is around 0.1-1USD ( and cost of mailing of course depends where they will send it.) I ..and price of 1 dan should be 70USD (?)

 

[miguksaram]

These are the numbers I don't believe. The cost of printing etc. is around 0.1-1USD ( and cost of mailing of course depends where they will send it.) I ..and price of 1 dan should be 70USD (?)

I am taking into account the cost of paper to print the cert as well as the material to print out the id's. Currently they are using plastic before it was cardboard type paper that was laminated. So let us lower it to $5.00 you are still looking at $34.50 profit. As for the mailing, you are right that it will depend on where you send it, I would guesstimate the average is $10.00 for sending anything out of country, so I will still stick to that pricing. Again, this does not include adding any other outside fees such as other staff members, rent, maintenance, etc.

However, I have a question for you. What organization do you know of that does all that you are expecting KKW to do? How do you think WTF will be different than KKW?

Does anyone know if you can compete at an international level at Judo tournaments without being part of the Kodokan or a JKA tournament without being a member of the JKA? Just curious.

 

[Markku P]

Does anyone know if you can compete at an international level at Judo tournaments without being part of the Kodokan or a JKA tournament without being a member of the JKA? Just curious.

with Judo you don't need to be Kodokan Black belt. The national federations can do their own black belt tests and you don't need Kodokan certificates.

/Markku P.

 

[Markku P]

However, I have a question for you. What organization do you know of that does all that you are expecting KKW to do? How do you think WTF will be different than KKW?

I think the national federations can provide pretty much same as Kukkiwon does, most countries have many experienced grandmasters, federations can hire instructors elsewhere, if they wish for it and often they can get funding for that.

/Markku P.

 

[Markku P]

How do you think WTF will be different than KKW?

I think WTF is more accountable, people are elected in their positions and WTF today is much more democratic. It would be very easy establish some kind of "tradtional Taekwondo section or committee".

All this discussion..but no one hasn't answered how much money Kukkiwon generates per year or how many Dan certificates they issue per year? Am I only one who is curious?

/Markku P.

 

[andyjeffries]

with Judo you don't need to be Kodokan Black belt. The national federations can do their own black belt tests and you don't need Kodokan certificates.

To compete in the Olympics in Judo you need to be an IJF 1st Dan or above.
http://www.fuzilogik.com/Sports-Library/Judo/Judo-Olympic-Qualifying.html

If we consider that the WTF doesn't issue Dan certificates (they entrust that to the Kukkiwon) the situation is the same.

 

[andyjeffries]

It's quite a big deal when there is thousands of people who will pay 70-500USD every year to Korea and we don't really know what happens all the money.

A proportion of it goes to the WTF. A proportion goes to the MNA (or recommender if they have enough points under the KOMS/KMS system).

Remember though, this wasn't around how much the Kukkiwon earns but that it was considered odd to require it to compete in the Olympics. Then it becomes a one-off payment per athlete, not an annual fee.

 

[Markku P]

To compete in the Olympics in Judo you need to be an IJF 1st Dan or above.
http://www.fuzilogik.com/Sports-Library/Judo/Judo-Olympic-Qualifying.html

If we consider that the WTF doesn't issue Dan certificates (they entrust that to the Kukkiwon) the situation is the same.

But IJF recognizes black belt certificates from National federations..

/Markku P.