Bob D.
Green Belt
Anyone know of any Korean martial artists that actually fight (outside their own school)? (I'm not talking about sport TKD or tournaments) Honest question as one never hears much in this regard.
Bob
Bob
Korean Martial Artists that fight?
- Thread starter Bob D.
- Start date
Zepp
Master of Arts
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2003
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Do mean martial artists who go around picking fights, or do you mean fighting in NHB-type events?
Sarah
Senior Master
I know an Instructor of TKD that use to get into (street) fights to practise his stuff. However that was in his younger days, he doesnt do it now and does not recommend it.
In saying that it has served him well, as he knows what sort of stuff work, he also now teaches the Police effective self defence and submission techniques.
In saying that it has served him well, as he knows what sort of stuff work, he also now teaches the Police effective self defence and submission techniques.
Sarah
Senior Master
We have a BB that entered a bare-knuckle fight recently.Bob D. said:
Han-Mi
Purple Belt
I've done some amature kick boxing along with 2 of my(I'm and asst. inst.) students. I also did a kosho tournament and whipped on a japanese guy that had some sort of title in Japan. To be fair, he wasn't used to the excessive kicking, and probably didn't know there was gonna be any TKD there, where as I was completely prepared for the low stance hard punching. Preparation is the key.
C
C. G. Lopez
Guest
Bob,
NHB is starting to grow in Korea; unfortunately I can't remember the name of the organization off the top of my head right now. But if I can find out more or if I can recall it I will post more info. If I remember correctly BJJ, Mauy Thai and the Americans are still the dominant force over there. But among the Koreans some Yu Sool guy's have done well over the other Korean arts.
I have guys that train for MMA and have fought and done well though I'm not sure if it is fair to call what I teach them Korean.
Here is a funny story I heard... I guess Joo Bang Lee actually accepted a challenge to fight Rorion Gracie, back before the UFC got it start, only to back out when he found out it was a real challenge.
Anyway, I think Vernon White and Guy Mezger from the Lions Den both had their start in TKD, but I don't think that is what you mean considering it took years of learning from Ken to get them were they are today.
If I find out anything I will be sure to post more info.
Lopez
T
TomakaStud
Guest
Bob, this is Tom Capaldi from KJN Corona's school in phx. I was supposed to fight last Feb. before i got sick. Also there is one of of KJN's students in phx who fights in "rage in the cage" here. www.rageinthecage.com Another fights in pancrase and fought just recently. I believe you know Instructor Spencer, the other is John V. (can barely pronounce the last name much less spell it) I had met you for the first time at sulsa camp last year. I am the one who shoots archery, or as you call it my sling shot bow (compound). Anyhow after i got better i had to take a six month leave of absence for work, i'm back just tested for my blue and deciding if i want to fight in the cage now. I'll keep you posted.
C
C. G. Lopez
Guest
Here is some info I found floating around the net...
Mixed Martial Arts Brands Ready for Fierce Battle
By Park Song-wu
Staff Reporter
This year will likely see the biggest fight ever in mixed martial arts (MMA) between Bob Sapp and Mike Tyson, as the former NFL offensive lineman set his sights squarely on the former heavyweight champ after beating sumo wrestler-turned-fighter Akebono in their highly-touted K-1 bout in Japan on Dec. 31.
Tyson has signed a contract with K-1 but it remains to be seen if he will lace up the gloves. If he does it will be an extremely rare match between two giants of the fighting biz, but that is one of the biggest draws MMA can offer to fans who love to watch fighters from various backgrounds duke it out.
If the Sapp vs. Tyson match goes ahead, it will likely attract the attention of fight fans who have never heard of K-1, Pride FC or Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) _ the world's top MMA brands.
The fight could send shockwaves around the world and especially so in South Korea, an emerging MMA market where three local brands started up last year.
Judging that the market here is large and lucrative with youngsters exchanging cards and T-shirts of their favorite warriors, the Spirit MC blazed the trail in April. NeoFight and Strikick got started a few months later with a number of mediocre brands following on.
Everybody, however, knows that three major brands are more than enough in this small country. That is why organizers for each brand will likely make a risky wager this year by betting all their available resources to grab the lion's share of the market.
Despite such daring determination, few events are fixed for this year as the MMA market here is still in its infancy and it is a sort of off-season. Many of the projects are still on the drawing board.
Spirit MC _ a Korean version of Pride FC, a Japanese brand featuring open-finger gloves, allowing fighters both standing and grappling skills _ will launch an international amateur championship at the KBS 88 Stadium in Seoul on Feb. 7.
For the first time in its two-year history, non-Korean fighters can attend the amateur league, which will be offered to fans for free. Winners can earn a ticket to the main Spirit MC championships that will be held in Seoul four to six times this year.
NeoFight, which is similar in rules with Spirit MC but limits grappling time to speed up the bouts, will host about five championships this year, including the heavyweight title bouts in Seoul on March 20.
They also plan to hold an event in Pusan in April to reach out to MMA fans outside of Seoul.
Strikick is similar with K-1, allowing fighters to use only kicks and punches. No ground skills are permitted.
One noteworthy point is that Strikick hosts daily matches, except Sundays, from 9 p.m. at Gimme Five, a live sports and entertainment restaurant, located in the COEX Mall in Samsung-dong, southwestern Seoul.
Sitting at a table in the multi-purpose hall, fight fans may get a taste of what it was like to be a spectator at an amphitheater in Rome, eating bread and watching gladiators battle it out.
While the market here still developing the venues are varied, from the octagonal ring for Spirit MC to the dining table for Strikick.
The three domestic brands, however, face some stiff competition as fans can watch overseas fights on satellite broadcasters. The bar has been raised and the domestic brands have to provide the same level of excitement as the world's best.
With all major sports struggling financially, the big three MMA brands are not immune from money woes. The future is murky but the picture is expected to clear up this year as nobody will likely pour funds into a business that is a money-loser for long.
One year is a very short time for organizers to find ways to stay alive, but they know well that they are in a market where only the fittest can survive.
Mixed Martial Arts Brands Ready for Fierce Battle
By Park Song-wu
Staff Reporter
This year will likely see the biggest fight ever in mixed martial arts (MMA) between Bob Sapp and Mike Tyson, as the former NFL offensive lineman set his sights squarely on the former heavyweight champ after beating sumo wrestler-turned-fighter Akebono in their highly-touted K-1 bout in Japan on Dec. 31.
Tyson has signed a contract with K-1 but it remains to be seen if he will lace up the gloves. If he does it will be an extremely rare match between two giants of the fighting biz, but that is one of the biggest draws MMA can offer to fans who love to watch fighters from various backgrounds duke it out.
If the Sapp vs. Tyson match goes ahead, it will likely attract the attention of fight fans who have never heard of K-1, Pride FC or Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) _ the world's top MMA brands.
The fight could send shockwaves around the world and especially so in South Korea, an emerging MMA market where three local brands started up last year.
Judging that the market here is large and lucrative with youngsters exchanging cards and T-shirts of their favorite warriors, the Spirit MC blazed the trail in April. NeoFight and Strikick got started a few months later with a number of mediocre brands following on.
Everybody, however, knows that three major brands are more than enough in this small country. That is why organizers for each brand will likely make a risky wager this year by betting all their available resources to grab the lion's share of the market.
Despite such daring determination, few events are fixed for this year as the MMA market here is still in its infancy and it is a sort of off-season. Many of the projects are still on the drawing board.
Spirit MC _ a Korean version of Pride FC, a Japanese brand featuring open-finger gloves, allowing fighters both standing and grappling skills _ will launch an international amateur championship at the KBS 88 Stadium in Seoul on Feb. 7.
For the first time in its two-year history, non-Korean fighters can attend the amateur league, which will be offered to fans for free. Winners can earn a ticket to the main Spirit MC championships that will be held in Seoul four to six times this year.
NeoFight, which is similar in rules with Spirit MC but limits grappling time to speed up the bouts, will host about five championships this year, including the heavyweight title bouts in Seoul on March 20.
They also plan to hold an event in Pusan in April to reach out to MMA fans outside of Seoul.
Strikick is similar with K-1, allowing fighters to use only kicks and punches. No ground skills are permitted.
One noteworthy point is that Strikick hosts daily matches, except Sundays, from 9 p.m. at Gimme Five, a live sports and entertainment restaurant, located in the COEX Mall in Samsung-dong, southwestern Seoul.
Sitting at a table in the multi-purpose hall, fight fans may get a taste of what it was like to be a spectator at an amphitheater in Rome, eating bread and watching gladiators battle it out.
While the market here still developing the venues are varied, from the octagonal ring for Spirit MC to the dining table for Strikick.
The three domestic brands, however, face some stiff competition as fans can watch overseas fights on satellite broadcasters. The bar has been raised and the domestic brands have to provide the same level of excitement as the world's best.
With all major sports struggling financially, the big three MMA brands are not immune from money woes. The future is murky but the picture is expected to clear up this year as nobody will likely pour funds into a business that is a money-loser for long.
One year is a very short time for organizers to find ways to stay alive, but they know well that they are in a market where only the fittest can survive.
- Thread Starter
- #10
OK, although interesting I was asking about Koreans specifically. Prior to UFC...mid 90's are there any Korean Hapkido, Kook Sul, TDK, Hrd or TSD, masters or Grand Masters, that actually fought? They all probably did tournaments and inner school sparing. Most very impressive at forms and throwing uke. But any independent knowledge of them actually fighting?
C
C. G. Lopez
Guest
Bob,
Good point, I can't think of any. At first I didn't realize you were only referring to Koreans (as in from Korea), as opposed to practitioners of the Koreans Martial Arts. Maybe Hee Il Cho? I seem to remember hearing about him doing some full contact.
Next time I see Walter Simpson I'll ask him. I think he fought PKA back in the 80's while he was still with H. U. Lee (ATA). He was on the East coast at the time, so maybe He might recall someone from out there.
Chris
Good point, I can't think of any. At first I didn't realize you were only referring to Koreans (as in from Korea), as opposed to practitioners of the Koreans Martial Arts. Maybe Hee Il Cho? I seem to remember hearing about him doing some full contact.
Next time I see Walter Simpson I'll ask him. I think he fought PKA back in the 80's while he was still with H. U. Lee (ATA). He was on the East coast at the time, so maybe He might recall someone from out there.
Chris
- Thread Starter
- #12
Yes, Hee Il Cho has an excellent rep. Those that know him say he is a powerful kicker and gears his training toward real fighting.
I wasn't necessarily making a point, I really can't come up with anyone and have never heard of anyone. I've heard the stories (secret death match...blah,blah,blah).
Hello Tom, Hows training? What are you doing for your cage match fighting? Who are you training with? Bob
I wasn't necessarily making a point, I really can't come up with anyone and have never heard of anyone. I've heard the stories (secret death match...blah,blah,blah).
Hello Tom, Hows training? What are you doing for your cage match fighting? Who are you training with? Bob
D
deckerweb
Guest
Hello Everyone, KSN Chris, SBN Bob,
The Kidohae folks are promoting an MMA event, "NEOFIGHT" (http://www.neofight.co.kr/eng/index.html) and the promoter has a few noches on his belt (so he says).
Really, no one did UFC stuff before the UFC. We never heard of it and neither did the Koreans. I've heard scores scrapping of stories though. My old TSD master (Lee, Juk Soo), it is said, flattened a contingent of the ISU football team after making disparaging remarks about is heritage. I think many tried to run in the fighting circles of their day: PKA, etc.
Regards,
Scott Decker
The Kidohae folks are promoting an MMA event, "NEOFIGHT" (http://www.neofight.co.kr/eng/index.html) and the promoter has a few noches on his belt (so he says).
Really, no one did UFC stuff before the UFC. We never heard of it and neither did the Koreans. I've heard scores scrapping of stories though. My old TSD master (Lee, Juk Soo), it is said, flattened a contingent of the ISU football team after making disparaging remarks about is heritage. I think many tried to run in the fighting circles of their day: PKA, etc.
Regards,
Scott Decker
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Guess I misunderstood the string. I thought we were talking about actual combat applications as opposed to competition. I was going to suggest a few folks from the Kim Moo Woong lineage as well as a couple of folks from the Ji lineage who have had considerable experience with practical use of Hapkido in security and law enforcement work. My sense is that if you stay with ist and 2nd generation practiioners who would have been practicing in Korea just after the Korean War and during the Communist unrest of the 60-s and 70-s you will probably locate quite a few people who participated in hands-on experience. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Best Wishes,
Bruce
- Thread Starter
- #15
Bruce, If you don't think (for lack of better terms) NHB or bare knuckle full contact is a form of real combat then I guess you've never been there. Fortunatly, because of civil and criminal law, killing and maming events don't happen much any more...wouldn't prove much anyway IMO.
Using MA in a law enforcement situation is not the best example either. On one side a law officer who's a trained martial artist with a whole establishment behind him against a probably untrained criminal isn't exactly a test of ones skill. At least they where out there using their skill though.
My question was not limited to anything. I'm just curious why one can't come up with any Koreans that fought against other MA's in any venue. Please fill me in. Thats why I asked.
Bob
Using MA in a law enforcement situation is not the best example either. On one side a law officer who's a trained martial artist with a whole establishment behind him against a probably untrained criminal isn't exactly a test of ones skill. At least they where out there using their skill though.
My question was not limited to anything. I'm just curious why one can't come up with any Koreans that fought against other MA's in any venue. Please fill me in. Thats why I asked.
Bob
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
I'm not sure where the confusion is coming in. I have no interest in a discussion of what constitutues "real fighting". Been there done that, bought the t-shirt.
Within the context of Korean security actions during the second half of the 20th century there are more than a few actions both military and para-military that included the use of MA training to neutralize the agitation found in the Korean society of that time. Unlike our own US system in which numbers of limits are placed on the law-enforcement practices of our agencies the Koreans were often recorded as having worked within corporate-sanctioned groups in what I would term the equivalent of "union busting" experienced in the US during the post-WW I period. Included in this post Korean War period are people such as Ji Han Jae who was formerly in charge of security at the Blue House until the assasination. People in his peer group and perhaps following his generation were known to have used Hapkido in a variety of ways to further the interests of their respective groups.
Perhaps the single greatest difference that may divide our two views is that the application I am speaking of easily disregarded concerns for the permanent injury or death of the individual. My sense is that the activities you are asking about, however demanding, take precautions against such eventualities. Perhaps this was where my confusion came in. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Within the context of Korean security actions during the second half of the 20th century there are more than a few actions both military and para-military that included the use of MA training to neutralize the agitation found in the Korean society of that time. Unlike our own US system in which numbers of limits are placed on the law-enforcement practices of our agencies the Koreans were often recorded as having worked within corporate-sanctioned groups in what I would term the equivalent of "union busting" experienced in the US during the post-WW I period. Included in this post Korean War period are people such as Ji Han Jae who was formerly in charge of security at the Blue House until the assasination. People in his peer group and perhaps following his generation were known to have used Hapkido in a variety of ways to further the interests of their respective groups.
Perhaps the single greatest difference that may divide our two views is that the application I am speaking of easily disregarded concerns for the permanent injury or death of the individual. My sense is that the activities you are asking about, however demanding, take precautions against such eventualities. Perhaps this was where my confusion came in. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
I don't think Ji did any competition of any kind. I think thats what you are asking about, yes? On the other hand it would remain to know if folks among the students, agitators and sympathizers dealt with by Korean security forces THEMSELVES had MA training or standing. Certainly the best known loss to the KMA world was easily GM Byong Yu (originator of Yon Mu Kwan TKD--- no relation to the HKD kwan I belong to). Whether his death was attributable to encountering a MA of superior ability or simply a bullet has never been ascertained. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Best Wishes,
Bruce
- Thread Starter
- #19
Byong Yu....I forgot about him. Yes, a man who put his money where his mouth was. I did not realize he died?
I get the impression you think martial competition beneath you or somehow not real? (typical oninion of those who don't do it) Actually it requires much higher skill, conditioning, and heart IMO. Anyone can add eye gouges, small joint breaks, strikes to the back of the head, etc. How does that make it any more real? My point is just because there are no rules and death or permenent injury might be the intent, it does not mean you'll be able to defeat a noncomplient martial artist who has the same intent. One can die in martial competition just as easily as on the street. Short of there being a corpse at the end it's not that different. Frankly I can't get behind life long martial artists who don't or didn't regularly spar either stand up, ground or any combo of both. What other test is there? How will you know if your stuff really works?
Bob
I get the impression you think martial competition beneath you or somehow not real? (typical oninion of those who don't do it) Actually it requires much higher skill, conditioning, and heart IMO. Anyone can add eye gouges, small joint breaks, strikes to the back of the head, etc. How does that make it any more real? My point is just because there are no rules and death or permenent injury might be the intent, it does not mean you'll be able to defeat a noncomplient martial artist who has the same intent. One can die in martial competition just as easily as on the street. Short of there being a corpse at the end it's not that different. Frankly I can't get behind life long martial artists who don't or didn't regularly spar either stand up, ground or any combo of both. What other test is there? How will you know if your stuff really works?
Bob
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Bob:
You may run into such an attitude before, I'm sure. Fact is, Bob, it just not something I am real interested in. Of course, its pretty apparent you are very interested and have a lot of passion for it and I always respect a person who fights with a code in his heart. Its what separates simple fighter from warriors. As far as proving that something works, I think I have just been in one too many such discussions to go there yet one more time. Its always the same, "well what are you calling a fight" and "where do rules start and competition begin, or competition ends and combat begins or combat begins and rules go out the window and what about size and training and weight classes and style and... and.. and... how many Bruce Lees can sit on the head of a nunchuka? Lifes' too short to go around that track yet one more time. Sorry. :-(
If its any help at all I also teach Kum Bup in which people learn how to kill a person with a sword. Its not a sport in any sense of the word. In an age that has long eclipsed the sword people wonder why waste ones' time with such an activity? The fact is that learning how to take a life is power, and once a person has learned how to take a life, take an eye, take a knee etc etc it then becomes a challenge for the rest of ones' life how to deal with that power. As you so rightly point out one of the very very first temptations is "hey, I wonder if this s--- really works?" after that there are more subtle challenges like "happening" into a situation where one "has to" defend themselves, or being "required" to defend ones' honor. Then there are the folks who go out and buy a gun and "go postal" or kids who take their daddys' gun into a High School to see "what its like" to kill another person. It is a sobering experience to know that one can take a life or forever impair another human being (take their sight; take their mobility)--- maybe a person can even justify it to themselves-- and must learn to reconcile what one wants to do with what is the right thing to do.
OK, this is getting off into a very different field and doesn't relate to what you are discussing here. I misunderstood the purpose of the string and I think we can leave it at that. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
You may run into such an attitude before, I'm sure. Fact is, Bob, it just not something I am real interested in. Of course, its pretty apparent you are very interested and have a lot of passion for it and I always respect a person who fights with a code in his heart. Its what separates simple fighter from warriors. As far as proving that something works, I think I have just been in one too many such discussions to go there yet one more time. Its always the same, "well what are you calling a fight" and "where do rules start and competition begin, or competition ends and combat begins or combat begins and rules go out the window and what about size and training and weight classes and style and... and.. and... how many Bruce Lees can sit on the head of a nunchuka? Lifes' too short to go around that track yet one more time. Sorry. :-(
If its any help at all I also teach Kum Bup in which people learn how to kill a person with a sword. Its not a sport in any sense of the word. In an age that has long eclipsed the sword people wonder why waste ones' time with such an activity? The fact is that learning how to take a life is power, and once a person has learned how to take a life, take an eye, take a knee etc etc it then becomes a challenge for the rest of ones' life how to deal with that power. As you so rightly point out one of the very very first temptations is "hey, I wonder if this s--- really works?" after that there are more subtle challenges like "happening" into a situation where one "has to" defend themselves, or being "required" to defend ones' honor. Then there are the folks who go out and buy a gun and "go postal" or kids who take their daddys' gun into a High School to see "what its like" to kill another person. It is a sobering experience to know that one can take a life or forever impair another human being (take their sight; take their mobility)--- maybe a person can even justify it to themselves-- and must learn to reconcile what one wants to do with what is the right thing to do.
OK, this is getting off into a very different field and doesn't relate to what you are discussing here. I misunderstood the purpose of the string and I think we can leave it at that. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
