Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan

[OnlyAnEgg]

Good Morning:

Just a quick post to say 'Hi'. I had posted on this forum a year or so ago while I was considering taking up MA again after a hiatus from TKD. I've been looking for a dojo on and off in the past year and found one, finally, about 15 minutes from home. My wife, two stepchildren (f-11, m-7) and I began study of Ko Sutemi under Sensei Danny Phillips.

My question, if anyone would like to help, deals with the differences between Shotokan and Ko Sutemi. At this time, I know that Sutemi is derived from Shotokan and Master Funakoshi. My experience is with TKD and not the Japanese/Okinawan styles.

Can anyone elaborate?

Thank you,

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[searcher]

I have found several website sthat contain information on this style. So far thwe differences I se are in the names of the kata. They seem to like to say that they are the nation's #1 fighting school, not really sure how they come up with that? I will keep looking and see what I can come up with.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

They seem to like to say that they are the nation's #1 fighting school, not really sure how they come up with that?

I saw that, too. That could simply be the 'We're Number 1!' mindset. My Sensei has not made such a claim to me personally.

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[JAMJTX]

There are a few concers in looking at the web site.

The "Soke" claims to be a 9th Dan in Karate. But all it says about his training is that he learned Jujitsu from his father in 1942. That would be quite unusual, unless his father lived in Hawaii or CA and got in with Okazaki or some of his students. I don't know any other group that taught Jujitsu to occidentals. It is likely that it was Judo. Also, there is no indication of where he got his karate training, when, for how long, who his teachers were or who promoted him to 9th Dan.

If this is supposed to be some off shoot of Shotokan, it should not be too difficult to research his Shotokan background. Ask him who his teachers were and where he got that 9th Dan. Then contact them and ask for verification. If it seems like some hokey organization ask back here about them.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

In defence of Soke Madden, I see that his claim to The World Martial Arts Hall Of Fame is legitimate.

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[Randy Strausbaugh]

Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan appears to be a mixture of Shotokan with Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu. The style has a strong emphasis on tournament competition.

Don Madden trained Tokey Hill, who won the WUKO world championships. Tokey Hill now states that what he himself teaches is Shotokan.

I was there when Mr. Madden received his 8th or 9th dan in jujitsu. It was at the Irish Cup tournament in the Shoemaker Center gym at OU-C. The rank was awarded by his students.

A friend of mine dates a girl in Don Madden's karate class in Chillicothe. He said that she claims that there is hardly any emphasis in the class on traditional karate or on self defense, just in getting ready for the next tournament (please note that this is third-hand info).

Also under the organizational banner is Seiei-kan Jujitsu, Seiei-kan Tomiki Aikido, and Seiei-kan Shaolin.

Their website is akjuteamamerica.com

Hope this helps.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

My Sensei, Danny Phillips, has so far emphasized kata, stances, kumite and basics as well as some general self-defence for children. There is no doubt the dojo competes; it does often. I simply see traditional training, as well, at this time.

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[Randy Strausbaugh]

My Sensei, Danny Phillips, has so far emphasized kata, stances, kumite and basics as well as some general self-defence for children. There is no doubt the dojo competes; it does often. I simply see traditional training, as well, at this time.

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Understood. I was just conveying info which came to me about classes taught by the system's head.
If you like the style, don't worry about what others say, just go for it.
Happy training!

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Thank you and my apologies if I seemed defensive. I appreciate the information. I will say this thing, though: membership in the AKJU is optional within the dojo. If I want to be belted, however (and perhaps compete) membership is reasonably priced. I found that interesting.


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[searcher]

There is nothing wrong with competition as long as you have other things to go with it and it sounds like you are getting that. I would like to know more about Mr. Maddens karate training and who promoted him. My opinion is if it works for you then go for it.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I would like to know more about Mr. Maddens karate training and who promoted him.

As I learn more about the lineage of my Sensei and his teachers, I will gladly share it here. My teacher frequently visits his teachers; so, I believe I will get to meet Mr. Madden, in time.

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[OnlyAnEgg]

While Sensei and I sparred last night, he shared some of his thoughts and definitions on Ko Sutemi with me.

First, he spoke of Ko Sutemi being an American system. Although derived from Shotokan, it is a combination of other forms designed to provide the fighter with enough resources to win.

Second, he stressed the definition of Ko Sutemi as 'small sacrifice'. I should be willing to recieve a body shot if I can throw a head shot because of it. Ko Sutemi also means 'success by all means' and positiveness.

Practicing my first kata, fu ku gata ichi, I see that it is similar to TKD's white belt kibon; therefore, similar to many first rung forms.

Sensei is very much a hand fighter. I tend to kick more than punch. He said, with a smile, he would teach me to fight properly.

Right now, we practice with children and adults combined. I'm told that, once fall settles in, more adults will return and classes will be separated once again.


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[Gene Williams]

Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.

 

[Andrew Green]

Nah, it happens all the time. Head of associations often get promoted by there own association. And really, since the rank has no meaning outside of that organization, who cares?

Gichin Funakoshi never called himself anything higher then 5th, students promoted him after he died if I remember correctly. But there are a good deal of Shotokanees that are higher then 5th, soI'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that not everyone has been promoted by someon of higher rank then them.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.

If there were nothing to counter that, I would've considered it a red flag. There is, however, in my dojo, few red flags so far. Emphasis is on kata, basics and effective fighting. There is no push for rank, competition, trophies, belt-fees or the like. This statement is qualified with 'at this time'.

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[OnlyAnEgg]

Tonight we learned fukugata ni (fukyugata). I talked with the Sesei afterwards and he told me that the forms are all Shotokan. The primary difference between Ko Sutemi and Shotokan would appear to be the competive emphasis. We haven't done much mat work, yet; but, there will be some jujitsu when the adults begin to attend regularly again. Apparently, summer is a relaxed time at the dojo.


Thanks to Andrew for pointing me to the forms. It's been very helpful.

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[Randy Strausbaugh]

Tonight we learned fukugata ni (fukyugata). I talked with the Sesei afterwards and he told me that the forms are all Shotokan.

Not to contradict your sensei, but to the best of my knowledge, Shotokan doesn't practice the fukyugata (ichi or ni). They came from Shorin Ryu. Shotokan's fundamental forms are the Taikyoku forms, and they are different from the Fukyugata. Also, Seiei-kan refers to the next set of forms as "Pinan" (shodan through godan), which is the designation given them in the Okinawan systems, while Shotokan calls them "Heian". And, Funakoshi reversed the order of the first two Pinan forms when he taught them as Heian, so Pinan Shodan is Heian Nidan, and vice versa. Where Okinawan forms utilize the cat stance (Neko-ashi Dachi), Shotokan tends to replace them with the back stance (Kokutsu Dachi).
If you'd like to compare the two systems in terms of forms, Funakoshi's Karate-do Kyohan and Shoshin Nagamine's Essence of Okinawan Karate-do will give you plenty of material.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I thank you for this information. I apologize for speaking so quickly when I could've done a bit of research first and saved you the necessity of correction.

I admit that I may have misheard Sensei. It's also possible that my ignorance of the comparative differences between Seieikan and other disciplines led me to misspeak.

I will find these books you noted. I have Karate-do Nyumon and had been planning on getting Kyohan at the first opportunity.

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[Randy Strausbaugh]

No problem. I'm always glad to help where I can. After all, that's (IMHO) the best thing about these forums. They give you the chance to share information with a wide range of practitioners. Believe me, I've been corrected many times here and elsewhere. I've always appreciated the learning experience.

By the way, you can find a listing of the Seiei-kan kata here. As you can see, some names associated with Japanese styles, some with Okinawan.

Keep us updated on how your training is going. Always glad to hear from another Buckeye .

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Tonight was a fine practice. Much attention to the position of the hands/arms in blocks and punches with a focus on the centerline. I have to stop myself from fully extending my arm.

Then a whirlwind through 4 kata: the two fukyugata and the first 2 Pinan. Pinan Nidan was a lot like one of the kibon from TKD. Sparring was nice and aggressive. For some reason, everyone wanted a piece of the 'old man' It's a very young class. Three days until the next class, so, the kids, wife and I will be doing kata this weekend. Funakoshi said 100 repetitions for each before moving to the next. Sounds like good advice.

Where in Ohio, Randy? I'm in Thornville, a little east of Columbus.

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